2017-2018 NBA Thread

[DBdude]

I enjoyed that beatdown. Lebron -32.

I expect Cav's will come out with a lot more energy in Game 2. Winner of that takes the series.

well of course.... he played almost the entire game

[I've seen black diamonds!]

For all the folks who think Lebron is better than Jordan, I have a question:

Was Jordan ever outscored over the course of the NBA finals by a player like Jason Terry? Was he ever outscored by 3 other players (Dirk, Wade, and Bosch) that same year?

https://www.basketball-reference.com...s-vs-heat.html

Answer: No. Jordan was the leading scorer in the series (on both teams) all six times he made the finals.

[Danno]

For all the folks who think Lebron is better than Jordan, I have a question:

Was Jordan ever outscored over the course of the NBA finals by a player like Jason Terry? Was he ever outscored by 3 other players (Dirk, Wade, and Bosch) that same year?

https://www.basketball-reference.com...s-vs-heat.html

Answer: No. Jordan was the leading scorer in the series (on both teams) all six times he made the finals.

You can cherry pick stats all day long to make one look better than the other. Nobody could deny that the Heat team that lost to the Mavs was the better team and should have won, and that's a strike against Lebron. But if you seriously think that somehow settles the debate or even comes close, there's not much point in debating this. I mean, for real, you think this is anything more than a single data point among many? It's really nothing more than a rehashed version of citing both players' records in the Finals. Which undisputedly goes to Jordan. But again, if you think that the Finals record is the ultimate arbiter of this debate, then Russell is the winner.

I haven't looked it up, but I am guessing that the Bulls were favorites heading into all 6 of Jordan's finals, as in the oddsmakers had them pegged as the best team (edit: they may have been slight underdogs in 1998, which is bizarre). They were probably pre-season favorites in all or almost all of those years too. I know that the same can't be said of Lebron's teams, and I know he won a series as a heavy underdog, something Jordan never did. OTOH, Jordan never lost when he was a favorite, and I know Lebron lost at least one when he was a favorite. There are stats on both sides, but stats will probably never settle this debate, and a single stat like "Jason Terry outscored him in the NBA Finals one year" certainly doesn't settle it.

Edit: it's hard to find historical odds for the Bulls' teams. But Lebron lost in 2007, 2011, 2014, 2015, 2017. His team was the underdog in 2007, 2014, 2015, and 2017. He won in 2012, 2013, and 2016. His team was the underdog in 2012 and 2016. So in 6 of 8 of the Finals he has been in, his team was the underdog coming in, but he has outperformed that. He's 2-4 as the underdog and 1-1 as the favorite.

[54-46]

Game 1 of Dubs and Rockets will be decided by Scott Foster and Tony Brothers.

[Mazderati]

[TahoeJ]

Game 1 of Dubs and Rockets will be decided by Scott Foster and Tony Brothers.

I wonder what the record is for free throw attempts in a finals game? Forget who wins, just bet on the over with those two whistler blowers.

[wyeaster]

houston, we have a problem

[TahoeJ]

When Harden plays great - 41 on 24 shots - and Dubs win by double digits... with Curry not shooting all that well (although 18 on 15 shots isn’t exactly bad). Rockets are in trouble.

Kitchen sink game for Houston on Wed.

[billyk]

It was a 4 point game when I started watching late in the 4th quarter, so you can blame me.

It’s like that game when they got blown out by the Jazz. When they hit those 3 pt shots, Houston looks great. Otherwise they can really stink it up.

Didn’t look like Harden was able to snare many fouls, either, at least not in the short time I watched.

[cinnepa]

man...harden still falls back on too much on 1 and 1 ball. 4 teammates standing around watching him. over in 5.

[SkiCougar]

man...harden still falls back too much on 1 and 1 ball. 4 teammates standing around watching him. over in 5.

second.

rockets have shooters, but the warriors have good to great shooters and defend shooters better. all the local radio guys were picking the rockets in 7, was never going to happen.

[guroo270]

It was kinda strange watching last night's game. I'm sure some of it had to do with it being in Houston, but it kept feeling like the Warriors were losing (if you watched the first 10 minutes in particular) and I kept looking down and they were only down 4, then up 4, then up 10 when it kinda felt like they weren't losing anymore. Rockets are a non-issue. Anytime it gets rough on offense they just give it to KD and they're golden.

[54-46]

Rockets fans were salty AF last night after seeing KD score in iso.

Their logic is that peeps bitch about Harden going iso but KD scored 10/13 hoops in iso.

Difference is the Dubs usually mix in off ball action and involve others before tossing to KD with 8-10 seconds left on the 24.

HOU watches Harden pound the ball for 18 seconds and their shooters get cold. They’re gonna change that up.

Marked difference how much easier the Dubs were scoring vs. Rockets.

Dubs scored 54 on uncontested shots last night.

31 of 80 fga were uncontested, and Dubs made 23/31 for 74%

Be pissed about a lack of competitive balance all you want but getting 39% of shots uncontested means the Dubs were doing a lot of work off ball and running their asses off to make it happen.

[concretejungle]

man...harden still falls back on too much on 1 and 1 ball. 4 teammates standing around watching him. over in 5.

That's how they built the team and their offensive strategy. You want Eric Gordon's fat ass running off screens, Clint Capela post ups? It's too late to draw that up now.

KD iso ball kicking the crap out of the Rockets is beautiful.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Harden shot over 40% on step back threes this year. Houston's offense isn't the problem, even if it's ugly. It's that their defense is so much less versatile (and less intelligent) than Golden State's. The Warriors are getting easy looks and even Harden guarding Durant (which is always an easy look). Harden and Paul had good games last night, but they had to work for every inch. And Houston's role players did not make the contested shots.

Houston also loves leaving shooters in the corners, which certainly helps you get a lot of high percentage 3's. But it also means that the Warriors are able to push the ball off missed shots before the Rockets' D is set, leading to wide open 3's the other way. This strategy works against teams that don't shoot as well as the Rockets (you're basically trading open 3's for open 3's). Against the Warriors it's a losing strategy.

It's hard to see how this will change all that much. The stars on both teams will score. But only the role players on the Warriors will consistently get easy looks. Houston will win only if Gordona, Ariza and others play above themselves.

[plugboots]

Role players...get easy looks.
Did somebody say Nick Young?

[TahoeJ]

ISO ball is a lot more effective when the other guys on the floor are still running around making cuts vs. just standing there and watching. Go figure.

[Danno]

I didn't watch the game, and don't have a dog in this fight. But IF Houston wins the next game, I look forward to all the new hot takes explaining how Houston won (or more likely, explaining why GS lost ).

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Did somebody say Nick Young?

Might as well be shooting in an empty gym.

Just read that last night Houston had the most ISO plays of any team in any game in the last 5 seasons. Lot's of Durant ISO too, but that was in large part because the Rockets were switching short guys onto Durant. Chris Paul is a good defender, but Durant can't even see the guy when he's shooting over him.

The Rockets are damned good at ISO ball. They won't change what they do. But they were at home and Harden was spectacular. Paul even though he was stymied on the perimeter repeatedly. Capela made some plays. Not sure what can they do better except hit tough shots? Seems to me that Golden State can play pretty well and win, while Houston will need to be close perfect.

[plugboots]

Golden State can play pretty well and win, while Houston will need to be close perfect.

I was at a dinner and watched the game in the background with no sound, then watched highlights and read stuff today.
Klay and Steph can play much better, etc., but as shown, they don't have to and they win. Houston can play perfect and they can win a game, maybe 2, just like the Cav's did in their one win in last year's finals, but Rockets can't do that 4 times out of 7.
Some of the Twitter comments about the Rockets passing, (lack of), were great.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

I think the Rockets have a shot in the series. I don't think the Cavs had much a of a shot last year. Rockets can actually play defense. Just not enough to slow down the Warriors in any meaningful way. Maybe the Celtics D could just slightly frazzle the Warrior here and there. But Boston's offense is nowhere near as good as Houston's, which is damn good despite the lack of style. Harden is awesome, if aesthetically terrible. I hope Houston makes it a series. They're a damn good team.

[wyeaster]

i would not be surprised if it ended in 5 or 6 because houston has shown little heart in the past but i also would not be surprised to see it go 7 because they are talented professionals who clearly can learn and also play out of their minds. that said, the warriors are toying with a historically great run over years. learning and playing out of their minds against them and winning is a tall order. that said, an injury could swing it and i doubt curry is 100%.

[MultiVerse]

This is more than a little contrarian, and probably not quite right, but the Warriors with Durant come close to making Curry superfluous. Curry elevates the Warriors, no doubt, but with KD playing like he did in game one it's hard to see how the Rockets stop him over the course of the series because even absent Curry there's still so much Warrior's talent.

[plugboots]

Interesting thought, and I kinda see what you mean, but it's m-effing Steph Curry. Yes they can win w/o Curry, as they have, and Curry-less OKC almost got to the finals, remember? And Curry-less OKC back then was not as good as this Curry-less Warriors team.
Watch Curry get better over this series too. It's gonna be cool to see.

[MultiVerse]

^^ Yeah, probably so... though the Rockets were banking on iso Harden vs Curry, and expending a lot of effort to get there.

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