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  1. #1
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    Broken Spatula Redemption: How to Repair?

    Please help me be as thorough and anal as possible on my repair plan below. After many years of blowing this off, now I really, really, REALLY want this repair job to work the first time and be very solid for longterm.

    Volant Spatulas. Skied only 5 days, then broke due to a terrible mount job. The red plastic mounting layer is peeled completely off on 1 ski, and the 2nd ski has localized separation/peeling near every screw hole. Also, there is some old dried epoxy in spots from a feeble attempt on Day4 to prevent further separation/peeling.

    PLEASE SUGGEST WAYS TO MAKE MY PLAN BELOW MAXIMALLY THOROUGH AND ANAL:

    1) First, expand old screw holes in metal using an actual 4.1mm bit (previously drilled for 5/32-inch = 3.97mm bit, BAD!).
    2) Just peel the "less damaged" ski's red plate all the way off (easily done, because the bond is very weak after many years), so both skis will be starting in the same state.
    3) Use razor blade to scrape off the very thin layer of black sticky foam from the metal surface and also from the underside of the red plastic plates. And use razor blade and/or metal file to remove any old dried epoxy from a past feeble repair attempt. Also raze/file any volcanos at holes on red plate and on metal.
    4) Use acetone to remove all sticky residue left behind by the black sticky foam.
    5) Roughen up or etch up the metal and underside of red plates, using a screwdriver, or a narrow cobalt drill bit in my fingers, or something like that.
    6) Do an actual competent tapping job myself this time on the metal holes (previously, the shop tapped only the plastic layer and NOT the metal, CATASTROPHIC!)---plus I have brand new screws this time. For tapping, I will dry-clamp the red plastic to the ski, just to ensure the threads are lined up at the boundary between metal and red plastic.
    7) Then epoxy and clamp 1 ski at a time (will be 4 days per ski). I have 24-hour setting epoxy (which claims 4 days to reach full bond strength), so I will spread that onto both surfaces (metal & underside of red plate), then place red plate onto the ski.
    8) Immediately use faster epoxy (2-hour set time, 8-12 hour cure time) in the screw holes, to prevent the slow epoxy from leaking out of its intended zone.
    9) "Clamp" it all down by mounting the binding to the ski, and I also have 2 C-clamps to clamp it down in 2 other spots (I guess 1 in front of the toe piece, and 1 behind the heel piece), and I will resort to placing something heavy-ish to "clamp" between the toe and heel piece.
    10) Immediately wipe off any epoxy that got squeezed out, then use faster epoxy (2-hour set time, 8-12 hour cure time) completely around the edge of the red plate, just to prevent the slow epoxy from leaking out of its intended zone.
    11) Let it cure for 4 days.
    12) Repeat Steps 7-11 to epoxy & clamp the 2nd ski for 4 days.
    13) Done. Then ski it on or before May 22 closing day at Backcomb.

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    .
    Last edited by Vitamin I; 05-11-2017 at 04:19 AM.
    - TRADE your heavy PROTESTS for my lightweight version at this thread

    "My biggest goal in life has always been to pursue passion and to make dreams a reality. I love my daughter, but if I had to quit my passions for her, then I would be setting the wrong example for her, and I would not be myself anymore. " -Shane

    "I'm gonna go SO OFF that NO ONE's ever gonna see what I'm gonna do!" -Saucerboy

  2. #2
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    UPDATE: THE FINAL OUTCOME
    (After all the advice posted in this thread, I did the repair job, and then posted here about the final outcome.)

    Thanks for all the advice, guys!

    I am SO STOKED that everything turned out great in the end, and the new mount seems solid so far, after one big day of skiing at high-speeds, high-impact, etc.
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    CONCLUSIONS: If I ever mount another pair of Spatulas…
    - Finish drilling metal with actual 4.1mm bit. Do NOT settle for 5/32-inch holes, or else the tapping tool and screws will wear down even more and become troublesome.
    - Finish red plastic spacers with a super-wide 7/32-inch bit, just to prevent screw threads and tap tool threads from engaging that plastic and forcing the red plate to delam upward off the ski. (Or maybe could use an exacto knife instead of a drill.)
    - I truly HATE all the work required for tapping stainless steel to perfection, but it is critical to do a thorough tapping job on Spatulas.
    - Use a brand new tap tool for each Spatula mount job, then demote that tap tool to tapping only regular non-steel metal skis.
    - To confirm each hole was tapped perfectly, insert a “test screw” all the way in, and then back it out, but use only a brand new screw, and switch to a different brand new test screw every 2-3 holes, and retire the used screws because they get worn and stripped after testing 2-3 holes. Expect the whole tapping/testing job to take a lot of time, patience, sweat, and wrist fatigue/pain.
    - Use 1-2 brand new sets of screws when mounting bindings to the ski. If one screw gives trouble, back it out, retire that screw, insert a different brand new screw. If still trouble on that hole, and there is already wet epoxy in all the other holes, then I will settle for the quick solution of expanding the troublesome hole to an unconventional 3/16-inch wide hole with drill, then drip new epoxy and insert a screw one final time.

    My actual repair steps ended up differing from my original proposal in the first post. Here are all the details about what I ended up doing:

    1) Heeded advice that the delammed red plates are merely spacers, and do not need to contribute any screw retention force. So I focused on achieving perfect tapping of the stainless steel holes.

    2) Peeled the red plate off the less damaged ski.

    3) Used razor blade to scrape off dried epoxy (from a previous repair attempt) on the underside of red plates and top of the metal. (Did not bother to scrape off any black sticky foam, nor use acetone to remove any sticky stuff.)

    4) Expanded holes in red plates to huge 7/32-inch holes, to guarantee that screw threads would NOT bite into the red plate spacers. (This prevents the screw threads from forcing the red plates upwards off the topsheet).

    5) With red plates off, I filed down any minor volcanoes in the metal holes, even lightly hammered one volcano to bend it more flat, then expanded old holes in metal with an actual 4.1mm bit (previously drilled for 5/32-inch = 3.97mm bit, BAD!).

    6) Attempted to make every steel hole become perfectly tapped, using a real tap tool by hand (with a drilled piece of wood as a tap guide). This job was a BITCH! After tapping each hole with the real tap tool with the red plates off, I would take my super-clean test screw and insert it and back it out 2-3 times, just to confirm that the hole was perfectly tapped, that the screw would get deep into the metal, and with intent to guarantee that a screw would later insert flawlessly during the real mount with wet epoxy everywhere. That test method indicated I needed to work extra on a few “trouble holes”, but later I realized that test method turned out to be faulty at times. After much work, at the end of this step, my test screws would insert and back out perfectly for all 18 holes. (But later, not all holes turned out to be as perfect as I thought…see below.)

    THE MISTAKE:
    I was late to realize that my super-clean test screw was becoming more and more stripped with every insertion test, making that screw less and less valid for testing each hole’s tapping job. Next time, start with many, many brand new super-clean screws, and substitute a new “test screw” every 2-3 holes of testing. I ended up doing excessive extra tapping work on some “trouble holes”, but maybe those holes were already perfect, and maybe it was merely my quickly wearing test screw that was incorrectly telling me the holes were not perfect. Not sure.

    7) On the first ski, I used 4-hour setting epoxy (which claims 3 days to reach full bond strength) to glue red plates to the metal topsheet. (I did not bother to clean or etch the surfaces, and did not bother to use even slower epoxy, because the red plates will not be contributing any screw retention force.) In the screw holes, I used quicker 2-hour setting epoxy (which claims 8-12 hour cure time). Then I screwed in the bindings using brand new perfect screws.

    On that first ski, with wet epoxy everywhere, 1 of 9 screws failed to insert deeply into the metal, and I could feel that screw was just spinning above the lip of the metal hole (which I blame on an invalid test result from Step6 above). Unsure how to improve that screw, I decided to leave it inserted as deeply as possible, and tightened a C-clamp on the binding housing right next to that 1 shallow trouble screw. Relying mostly on the 8 good screws for clamping, I configured a ghetto clamping system with canned food, ski boots, and rubber bands…appropriate for a guy living in his car for a month. Then left it to cure in my storage unit. I did not bother to wipe off excess epoxy---the more, the better.
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    Clamping by Chef Boyardee

    8) On the 2nd ski, same epoxy methods, got 2 sketchy screws out of 9 (which I blame on invalid test results from Step 6 above). One of the sketchy screws didn’t feel so bad—it felt like it was just starting to strip and spin, but was already deep into the metal threads, so I decided to leave it and trust that the epoxy would help this screw contribute good enough screw retention force. The 2nd sketchy screw was not going deep into the metal, was spinning above the lip of the metal hole, so I backed it out. With wet epoxy and 7 perfect screws out of 9, I decided to just expand that one metal hole with a 3/16-inch bit (4.76mm), drilling the metal ski right through the binding housing hole, then dripped new 2-hour epoxy in that hole, and inserted a new clean screw. The screw inserted nice, smooth, and deep into the wider metal hole, and it felt like this screw will contribute “enough” retention force even with its wide hole. Then configured a ghetto clamping system and left it to cure in my storage unit. I did not bother to wipe off excess epoxy.

    9) Now I wanted to go back to the first ski, and do the “wider hole” trick on that first trouble screw, but the screw wouldn’t back out of the gooey epoxy, so I decided to let it cure and improve it later.

    10) After 3 days curing, I did the “wider hole” trick on that first trouble screw on the first ski, by drilling the hole again without removing the binding. During insertion, it felt like this screw will contribute “enough” retention force even with its wide hole.
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    11) Let it cure 1 more day, then for the 3 imperfect screws, I backed out those screws 1/2 turn, then tightened them slightly beyond their original depth, but only to medium torque, with intent to achieve a bit higher screw retention force without ruining any dried epoxy threads in there. DONE! I ended up with some ugly excess epoxy drips, but only cosmetic, so I will leave them as is.
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    12) Then adjusted bindings, waxed, and skied it on 2nd-to-last day at Blackcomb. The mount job felt solid for a big, high-impact day. SO STOKED I revived my almost-new Spats, now skied only 6 days!
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    .
    Last edited by Vitamin I; 05-26-2017 at 11:40 PM.
    - TRADE your heavy PROTESTS for my lightweight version at this thread

    "My biggest goal in life has always been to pursue passion and to make dreams a reality. I love my daughter, but if I had to quit my passions for her, then I would be setting the wrong example for her, and I would not be myself anymore. " -Shane

    "I'm gonna go SO OFF that NO ONE's ever gonna see what I'm gonna do!" -Saucerboy

  3. #3
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    For maximum anal perfection, when expanding the holes use a drill press with a depth stop, cobalt bit, slow speed, light to moderate pressure, and lots of lube.

    See here for more: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...ing-experience

  4. #4
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    Eagerly await results... I have 3 spats... a mounted pair, and a delammed single that Adimmen made into a shot ski for me as a gift.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  5. #5
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    Why re-apply the red plastic layer? Aesthetics?

    If you had screw pull-out before, I'd rather have more of my screws mounted into wood/metal. Double-check screw length, but if the ski is thick enough I would skip red plastic layer entirely.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin I View Post
    The red plastic mounting layer is peeled completely off on 1 ski, and the 2nd ski has localized separation/peeling near every screw hole.

    1) First, expand old screw holes in metal using an actual 4.1mm bit (previously drilled for 5/32-inch = 3.97mm bit, BAD!).
    Did you have any pull-outs?

    Looks like the plastic plates are just spacers. Measure the actual ski thickness at the hole locations and see if you've got 10mm or more. If you do, I'd just tear off the spacers and clean off the adhesive residue. If you don't have 10mm, I'd still tear off the spacers and grind the sharp point off the screws so you don't punch through the base.

    Now that screws have been forced through the original 5/32 holes, they're probably already enlarged a hair and depth is a bigger issue than diameter. If you've pitched the spacers, use the 4.1 ski drill bit in a drill press and carefully deepen the holes. I wouldn't bother with lube, you don't want lube in your holes. The lube is mostly for the drill point when you're starting a new hole in metal, and clearing chips in a deep hole in solid metal. Neither is an issue here.

    Tap holes with firm downward pressure with nice sharp #12AB tap.

    Mount & win.

  7. #7
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    +1 on ditching the red spacers as long as you have adequate core thickness. I'd say that if you have 11+ mm of thickness you should be ok. I say 11 instead of 10 as previously mentioned because the last 1-1.6 mm would only be base material and the bottom layer of glass. I'd not want to drill to 9.5 mm deep if that ski is only 10 mm thick in the mount zone.

    If there is delam of the metal top you could try injecting epoxy with a syringe into the void, flex the ski a couple times, inject more as needed and clamp for cure. Keep the ski someplace warm to enhance epoxy cross-bonding and cureing. Redrill and retap with appropriate tooling. Mount and ski.
    fighting gravity on a daily basis

    WhiteRoom Skis
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  8. #8
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    Sweet. I KNEW you guys would see some things I was missing!

    Quote Originally Posted by JayPowHound View Post
    Nice! That link gives me confidence that this repair will have a happy ending.

    Quote Originally Posted by skimaxpower View Post
    Why re-apply the red plastic layer?...If you had screw pull-out before...if the ski is thick enough I would skip red plastic layer entirely.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1000-oaks View Post
    ... If you don't have 10mm, I'd still tear off the spacers and grind the sharp point off the screws so you don't punch through the base...
    Great idea. Skipping the red plate had never crossed my mind. I will measure the thickness of the ski and consider skipping it. Yes, the red plate is primarily just a spacer---even when brand new, I doubt it is designed to add much for screw retention, if at all. I might end up deciding to keep it, just to be as close to original design as possible...and maybe it ends up dampening some frequencies into the boot or whatever. Gotta think more about it and decide.

    BTW, I think I didn't have any "real" screw pull-out, so the old 3.97mm holes can be made perfect by expanding with actual 4.1mm bit and by actually tapping the stainless steel. Instead, the original problem was that I asked a shop to tap for me, and it turns out the shop tapped only the plastic and not the steel (CATASTROPHIC!). I had believed my decision to drill with narrower 3.97mm bit would not be a problem as long as the shop actually tapped the steel successfully, but maybe my narrower bit contributed to the shop failing at the tapping job, which would place more blame on me than on the shop. I don't know, but if a #12AB tap is designed to handle 4.1mm, then I think it should also work on a 3.97mm hole, but this is stainless steel and I'm clueless about tapping... Anyway, as the screws turned, they must have stopped penetrating deeper into the steel, and instead each screw turn merely forced the well-tapped red plastic upward. There was no visibility into the problem until Day4 of skiing, which showed visible separation between red plate and steel. Not understanding the problem at the time, I dripped some epoxy into the separations, then skied on Day5 when one red plate peeled completely off at the heel, but the binding heel stayed in the detached red plate, and the toe stayed in the steel, so my final run was like free-heeling tele for that one ski.

    .
    - TRADE your heavy PROTESTS for my lightweight version at this thread

    "My biggest goal in life has always been to pursue passion and to make dreams a reality. I love my daughter, but if I had to quit my passions for her, then I would be setting the wrong example for her, and I would not be myself anymore. " -Shane

    "I'm gonna go SO OFF that NO ONE's ever gonna see what I'm gonna do!" -Saucerboy

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinman View Post
    +1 on ditching the red spacers as long as you have adequate core thickness...

    If there is delam of the metal top...
    Good advice. I'm pretty sure there is no delam between metal and core. The problem was merely screws pushing the metal and red plate layers away from each other.

    .
    Last edited by Vitamin I; 05-13-2017 at 01:40 AM.
    - TRADE your heavy PROTESTS for my lightweight version at this thread

    "My biggest goal in life has always been to pursue passion and to make dreams a reality. I love my daughter, but if I had to quit my passions for her, then I would be setting the wrong example for her, and I would not be myself anymore. " -Shane

    "I'm gonna go SO OFF that NO ONE's ever gonna see what I'm gonna do!" -Saucerboy

  10. #10
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    The stainless topsheet is pretty thin, so the tap doesn't have to cut much. Once through the metal, it'll cut the wood & fiberglass quick. Just be sure to stop tapping when you feel it bottom out at the bottom of the hole. Or to be safe, stop once you're​ through the metal and it starts turning easy.

  11. #11
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    I measured the thickness of the ski (without red plate) at rear heel screw, and it was 10.5mm. The red plate adds about 3mm, so I'm leaning towards keeping the red plates to be at a total of about 13.5mm.

    .
    - TRADE your heavy PROTESTS for my lightweight version at this thread

    "My biggest goal in life has always been to pursue passion and to make dreams a reality. I love my daughter, but if I had to quit my passions for her, then I would be setting the wrong example for her, and I would not be myself anymore. " -Shane

    "I'm gonna go SO OFF that NO ONE's ever gonna see what I'm gonna do!" -Saucerboy

  12. #12
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    Even at the thinnest point, you still have 1mm of base covering the point at the bottom of the hole. What are the chances that you'll hit a rock exactly at that tiny point? I'd chuck the spacers.

    If you want to only drill an 8mm deep hole in those locations and leave more base, start the hole, then back out the bit and drop a washer that's 1.5mm or so thick onto the business end of the shouldered ski binding bit and finish the hole. Grind 1.5mm off the end of the screws going in those locations. The smaller threads toward the end of the screw don't grab anything anyway.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin I View Post
    I measured the thickness of the ski (without red plate) at rear heel screw, and it was 10.5mm. The red plate adds about 3mm, so I'm leaning towards keeping the red plates to be at a total of about 13.5mm.

    .
    how much penetration do you have into the ski and is the red spacer interfering with the screws getting a good hold in the ski is the real question ?

    Might be good to make sure the screws don't go thru the p-tex, lose the red thing, cram the holes with 24hr epoxy and some FG filler

    I never tap holes and its never been a problem
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  14. #14
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    If you don't tap the stainless topsheets, the stainless will really dull the screw threads when you force them through, and there will be less thread to grab the ski core. Not to mention the holes in the stainless will be deformed where the screw was forced through. It'll be a lot stronger connection between the screw and the metal in the ski if they're threaded to mesh together nicely.

    After reading the test showing tapped holes are always stronger (even in skis without metal), I started tapping everything. As Calibrit said, "tap all holes".

  15. #15
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    Thanks for all the advice, guys. I finished the job, am waiting for the epoxy to cure for a couple days, and will post a little "trip report" soon.

    For now... The 3 keys to my success were:
    1) being reminded that the red plates should be treated as the mere spacers they really are (they are not designed to contribute much to screw retention, if at all),
    2) working hard to get that stainless steel tapped properly. What a bitch that was!
    3) tapping the metal while the red plate was off the ski made the job way easier, but it was still very difficult for me, so I wonder if I would fail miserably at tapping a Spatula with good red plates (not peeled off).

    Last night, it seemed that I finally succeeded on the tapping, after ruining some screws along the way, and dulling my tap tool (probably will still work to tap regular metal skis, but definitely too worn now to tap another Spatula). Then today, I mounted and inserted the screws and kept the red spacer plates on there, but somehow 3 of the 18 screws/holes turned out less than perfect. I'm pretty confident everything will perform well after the epoxy cures, and will hold up to high-impact skiing abuse on the hill, because 15 perfect screws/holes out of 18 should be solid enough. ...And I think 2 of the 3 imperfect screws/holes will contribute at least some semi-decent retention force without pulling out, which leaves only 1 screw out of 18 that might not contribute good enough retention force (but at least that bad screw/hole is on a 5-hole heel with 4 other perfect screws/holes). I think it will perform fine.

    P.S. I like mounting skis, but I HATED this one! Tapping steel SUCKS! ...but worth it, for the sweet Spatula ride.

    .
    Last edited by Vitamin I; 05-16-2017 at 02:37 AM.
    - TRADE your heavy PROTESTS for my lightweight version at this thread

    "My biggest goal in life has always been to pursue passion and to make dreams a reality. I love my daughter, but if I had to quit my passions for her, then I would be setting the wrong example for her, and I would not be myself anymore. " -Shane

    "I'm gonna go SO OFF that NO ONE's ever gonna see what I'm gonna do!" -Saucerboy

  16. #16
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    UPDATE:

    I posted details of the actual repair and the final outcome in Post #2 above at https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...36#post5016736

    SO STOKED!

    .
    - TRADE your heavy PROTESTS for my lightweight version at this thread

    "My biggest goal in life has always been to pursue passion and to make dreams a reality. I love my daughter, but if I had to quit my passions for her, then I would be setting the wrong example for her, and I would not be myself anymore. " -Shane

    "I'm gonna go SO OFF that NO ONE's ever gonna see what I'm gonna do!" -Saucerboy

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