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  1. #151
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    Klar nailed it.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
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  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by klar View Post
    1: Yes, male athletes also sometimes profit from their looks. However, the "ski model" type thing is much more common for women. Caroline Gleich seems to have started off that way and progressed to something else. For men, looks are an added benefit, while for women they are very often front and center to their athletic career, at least if you define athletic careers in terms of sponsorship deals. Arguably, the idea of what is considered good looking is also far more diverse for men than for women in sports.

    2: Yes, women by and large produce less extreme gnarliness of the kind you mention (big hucks, high speed, etc). If you were to measure badassery by different parameters, perhaps the result of the comparison would change. Either way, both the fact that female looks sell and that female athletic performance seemingly does not produce enough "WOW factor" are deeply tied to the fact that the extreme and action sports industry, and really the sports industry as a whole, are geared towards male participants, male viewers and male buyers of the stuff companies are trying to sell.

    It is bullshit that world class female surfers who do not fit into the single available mold of how to look and how to be cannot get sponsorships. It is bullshit that the same thing happens in many other sports. To me, a woman, the WOW factor produced by female pro athletes in action sports is not about the size of their huck compared to the size of the huck of a male athlete. It is about the size of their huck/their story/their accomplishments, period. Angel Collinson is not pretty good for a woman. She is just pretty good. Female athletic accomplishments can stand on their own and to the women watching, it is completely irrelevant what the men are doing. Having female pro athletes is about representation and giving little girls role models, and showcasing their achievements. There is no good reason why female pro athletes should have to cater to male aesthetic tastes in order to get better sponsorship deals or for any other reason.

    Re the original story: Drew Tabke wrote a great comment on the facebook post, which says it all.
    "When a woman in the public sphere stands up against troll/stalker/rape culture, it 100% guarantees continued harassment from the same pathetic ilk of mouth-breathing chauvinist keyboard jockeys that she is speaking out against in the first place. Kudos to Caroline Gleich for being a person smart enough to know the consequences of raising her voice, but principled and courageous enough to do it anyway."
    1) I can agree with that... though I have always been a terrible judge of male looks. Brad Pitt is nothing special, but I can see why Tom cruise is good looking for example.

    2) I agree with the part about Angel, that is what I was trying to say... every once in a blue moon a lady comes along that has the kind of freak athleticism to keep up with the boys at the highest level and be a full equal.

    If you care more about the story behind the athlete, and the personal interest stories then that's awesome. Go forth to support and enjoy. But for me personally and the other 95% of sports viewers, we watch sports to see the best athletes (regardless of gender) on earth compete and perform at superhuman levels. I don't give a shit about the person, just the athlete. Why do you think so many of the most popular athletes in the world are complete dicks yet still the most popular?

    Also, I know a couple of ladies in another action sport who are about as good as me, yet have low level sponsorship deals. I am the worst rider by a good deal amongst the dudes that I ride with, and most of them do not have deals. The fact that dudes in general have to put so more on the line, and have to perform at such a higher level to get noticed can rub people the wrong way. IMO, it all comes down to numbers and the fact there are waaaaay fewer ladies in these kind of sports and shops/brands are trying to reach that demographic so they try to hook up anyone who could be viewed as a role model to other ladies. I view it as sales, but I can see how it rubs folks the wrong way.

    But at the end of the day, how sad must someones life be that he needs to get his jollies by not only putting down someone else, but personally attacking and trying to inflict emotional harm on someone doing nothing but producing really cool media for your enjoyment? Like I said, social media trolling/hating is shitty but is part of the game... just like any other sport. Calling on a personal phone? That deserves a broken face and jail time IMO.

  3. #153
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    Harassment is wrong. Harassment of people, animals, plants, the planet, everything. Never bought into it not even in the terrible twos.

    That being said, Caroline Gleich rubs many people wrong. It's not what she is doing and has done that gets under one's skin, it is how she has done it and continues. I think californiagrown has hit the nail on the head.

    When she was transitioning from model to athlete she spent a great deal of time whining and being a victim. The media spent a lot of time portraying her as the "real deal" when she was only trying to become that, but was not, yet. At that same time, she was all "look at me, look at me." If I could have influenced / influence her it would be for her actions to speak for themselves, not oneself. Let others tell the world how great you are. Same as I influenced my own offspring. So, yeah, she has always been a target.

    She finally has my begrudging respect because she is out there getting after it a lot. She has my full respect for spending her time and energy using the influence that she has for environmental protection purposes. Time and energy spent in this manner cannot be deducted from any of our lives, let alone the earth's. Kudos.

    Won't even approach the "Shitting Gallery", Apostle McLean, and being an acolyte of him and his list. The Ribbon? The Great White Icicle? Ridiculous for many reasons. That, however, is another topic.

    Caroline exhibits an abundance of lack. She still has the whiny tone. My wife walked in when I was listening to her Powder podcast and wanted to know who the whiny, victimy person being interviewed was.

    So, yeah, until she womans up she will continue to be a target if she is going to continue to use social media to put bread on her table.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    If you care more about the story behind the athlete, and the personal interest stories then that's awesome. Go forth to support and enjoy. But for me personally and the other 95% of sports viewers, we watch sports to see the best athletes (regardless of gender) on earth compete and perform at superhuman levels. I don't give a shit about the person, just the athlete. Why do you think so many of the most popular athletes in the world are complete dicks yet still the most popular?

    Also, I know a couple of ladies in another action sport who are about as good as me, yet have low level sponsorship deals. I am the worst rider by a good deal amongst the dudes that I ride with, and most of them do not have deals. The fact that dudes in general have to put so more on the line, and have to perform at such a higher level to get noticed can rub people the wrong way. IMO, it all comes down to numbers and the fact there are waaaaay fewer ladies in these kind of sports and shops/brands are trying to reach that demographic so they try to hook up anyone who could be viewed as a role model to other ladies. I view it as sales, but I can see how it rubs folks the wrong way.
    For some athletes I care about the backstory, for others I don't. For me that depends on the person, not so much the gender. Regarding who gets what kind of sponsorship deals for what kind for what kind of talent, I figure it doesn't make much sense to compare things strictly by gender and who is "better". I know women and men who I consider to be better than me at skiing who are not sponsored, and women and men who are. I also know women and men who I do not consider to be better than me at skiing who are sponsored in some form or other.

    Men have it harder in some ways, women in others. It's not a competition of hardships. I care more about women specific issues because I am one and can relate to these issues more than to the issues men trying to go pro have to deal with. And simply because I would like to see more female pros and participants in action sports. That doesn't mean the men don't have valid problems. I'm just not as interested, much like you are probably not as interested in the women's issues for the same reasons. Since there are so few women, I feel that is important that those of us who are around speak up in these kind of discussions so that our interests are at least somewhat represented.

    Obviously there are less women in action sports so sure, it makes sense that brands want to reach more men. That doesn't mean I can't wish there were more women doing these sports (why do you think there are so few, by the way?) and that brands would cater more to women, because I personally would benefit from that (e.g. in the form of better gear options).

    As for wanting to watch the best athletes on the planet, I'll try to clarify the point I was trying to make: Skiing is my main sport and I enjoy watching the FWT live streams. I do not give a shit about the men's categories. I watch every single one of the women. I know some of them, I competed with some of them, these are my people. Saying I don't care at all about the achievements of the best male athletes on the planet (not that those are necessarily found on the fwt, but that's a whole other discussion) is an exaggeration, but I care so much more about the best female athletes on the planet. I suspect that this is true for many women who are active in some sport and follow that sport's pro circuit.

    I'm going to advocate for what and whom I want to see and be entertained by. If women in sports do not ask for what they want (more sponsorship opportunities, better gear, more money for the pros, and so on and so forth), we will not get it. Men are naturally free to do the same and arguable much better at it.

    About the OP Caroline Gleich thing, yup, I agree.
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  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by telefreewasatch View Post
    The media spent a lot of time portraying her as the "real deal" when she was only trying to become that, but was not, yet. At that same time, she was all "look at me, look at me." If I could have influenced / influence her it would be for her actions to speak for themselves, not oneself. Let others tell the world how great you are. Same as I influenced my own offspring. So, yeah, she has always been a target.
    For an outdoorsy athlete, your social media presence and interview media is the same as a corporate job interview. You gotta sell yourself to raise your profile which will in-turn get you more funding. You need to be your strongest advocate. Maybe she did it in a way that turned a lot of people off? idk, I never followed her. But I could not disagree more with the statement to let your "actions speak for themselves, not oneself. Let others tell the world how great you are".

    sitting around waiting for others to recognize your accomplishments is a real easy way to get overlooked... in terms of a pro skier, but especially in life.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    For an outdoorsy athlete, your social media presence and interview media is the same as a corporate job interview. You gotta sell yourself to raise your profile which will in-turn get you more funding. You need to be your strongest advocate. Maybe she did it in a way that turned a lot of people off? idk, I never followed her. But I could not disagree more with the statement to let your "actions speak for themselves, not oneself. Let others tell the world how great you are".

    sitting around waiting for others to recognize your accomplishments is a real easy way to get overlooked... in terms of a pro skier, but especially in life.
    Understand and agree that one must promote oneself. It is her style that rubbed many folks the wrong way. Don't tell me how great you are...show me or get off the pot.

    When Caroline stopped calling herself "ski model", and started calling herself "ski athlete" it was a lie and an insult to real athletes. As a model, you get to self promote, endlessly, and harmlessly. When you are a real athlete you need to act, and perform like one, else people are going to take shots at you.

    What I'm saying is that in her transition period she insulted many athletes and others of us in the industry.
    Last edited by telefreewasatch; 04-25-2017 at 10:05 AM.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by telefreewasatch View Post
    Understand and agree that one must promote oneself. It is her style that rubbed many folks the wrong way. Don't tell me how great you are...show me or get off the pot.
    You know that criticizing a woman on how she speaks or how she "just rubs you the wrong way" is a classic way for men to dismiss women, right? How many male pros have you said that about? How many male pros do you come onto TGR to bitch about how they were portrayed as the "real deal" when they were still up and comers?

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phildo_Baggins View Post
    You know that criticizing a woman on how she speaks or how she "just rubs you the wrong way" is a classic way for men to dismiss women, right? How many male pros have you said that about? How many male pros do you come onto TGR to bitch about how they were portrayed as the "real deal" when they were still up and comers?
    Think you are missing my objective points.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by telefreewasatch View Post
    Think you are missing my objective points.
    Clearly. I read it as you are ok with her doing what she does, as long as she never tells anyone about it.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phildo_Baggins View Post
    Clearly. I read it as you are ok with her doing what she does, as long as she never tells anyone about it.
    "Sigh"

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phildo_Baggins View Post
    You know that criticizing a woman on how she speaks or how she "just rubs you the wrong way" is a classic way for men to dismiss women, right? How many male pros have you said that about? How many male pros do you come onto TGR to bitch about how they were portrayed as the "real deal" when they were still up and comers?
    Yup.

    Just like if you hear someone say "that guy is really articulate" you can tell what race the guy he's talking about is, even though the language itself sounds race-neutral. This kind of language may sound gender neutral but it isn't.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
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  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phildo_Baggins View Post
    You know that criticizing a woman on how she speaks or how she "just rubs you the wrong way" is a classic way for men to dismiss women, right? How many male pros have you said that about? How many male pros do you come onto TGR to bitch about how they were portrayed as the "real deal" when they were still up and comers?
    I know personally somethings she did seemed to strike me the wrong way. But I think that's because I didn't know much about her, I only knew her as an occasional partner who showed up in reports on tetonsandwasatch. Then I saw her name show up in some ads, the spring pass billboard by the 7-11' and a bunch of other places seemingly all at once. Striking me the wrong way isn't quite right, I just wasn't aware of what else she was doing so I was surprised to see her outside the context of skiing steep lines in the Wasatch.

    I got over that initial surprise though.

    I also could have my timeline inverted and may have just known her from skiing, then spring pass, then the steep skiing

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by klar View Post
    (why do you think there are so few, by the way?)
    because in the US women of prime action sports demographic are more interested in educating themselves, moving to big citys to acquire social and fiscal capital, and generally more prone to further themselves?

    clearly the Caucasian male heternormative beauty gaze is powerful, with long history, but surely there's some ownership of it now by women? Men aren't the direct consumer of beauty/fashion products aimed at women - who apparently prefer straight, attractive to the prior mentioned beauty gaze, sports stars to advertise them.
    Last edited by dunfree ; 04-25-2017 at 11:10 AM.

  14. #164
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    People sure seem to give a shit about someone else's skiing and publicity. Maybe, I don't know, just do your own thing and don't worry about what other people are doing? Crazy thought, I know.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by telefreewasatch View Post
    Harassment is wrong. Harassment of people, animals, plants, the planet, everything. Never bought into it not even in the terrible twos.

    That being said, Caroline Gleich rubs many people wrong. It's not what she is doing and has done that gets under one's skin, it is how she has done it and continues. I think californiagrown has hit the nail on the head.

    When she was transitioning from model to athlete she spent a great deal of time whining and being a victim. The media spent a lot of time portraying her as the "real deal" when she was only trying to become that, but was not, yet. At that same time, she was all "look at me, look at me." If I could have influenced / influence her it would be for her actions to speak for themselves, not oneself. Let others tell the world how great you are. Same as I influenced my own offspring. So, yeah, she has always been a target.

    She finally has my begrudging respect because she is out there getting after it a lot. She has my full respect for spending her time and energy using the influence that she has for environmental protection purposes. Time and energy spent in this manner cannot be deducted from any of our lives, let alone the earth's. Kudos.

    Won't even approach the "Shitting Gallery", Apostle McLean, and being an acolyte of him and his list. The Ribbon? The Great White Icicle? Ridiculous for many reasons. That, however, is another topic.

    Caroline exhibits an abundance of lack. She still has the whiny tone. My wife walked in when I was listening to her Powder podcast and wanted to know who the whiny, victimy person being interviewed was.

    So, yeah, until she womans up she will continue to be a target if she is going to continue to use social media to put bread on her table.
    "Yeah, harassment is illegal and all, but she offends my extremely moral principles about recreation, so she basically deserves it" is a pretty terrible take.

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    because in the US women of prime action sports demographic are more interested in educating themselves, moving to big citys to acquire social and fiscal capital, and generally more prone to further themselves?
    hahaha there are less women in action sports because men are stupid? I like this train of thought.

    and one more time re. the Caroline Gleich thing: she apparently has some kind of stalker who is harassing her. Whether or not anyone likes her or whether she is more model or athlete seems to me about as relevant to this issue as whether she prefers pizza or pasta for lunch. Why exactly is the discussion primarily about people's feelings about her, rather than, say, about how to combat and prevent this kind of harassment?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phildo_Baggins View Post
    You know that criticizing a woman on how she speaks or how she "just rubs you the wrong way" is a classic way for men to dismiss women, right? How many male pros have you said that about? How many male pros do you come onto TGR to bitch about how they were portrayed as the "real deal" when they were still up and comers?
    Actually, plenty, speaking for myself. But I generally don't come on to TGR to complain about any pros. Still, I think it's sad that we have come to a point in our culture when we can't comment on a public figure's persona without being criticized of dismissing their race or gender.

    It's also really sad and in exceptionally poor taste that this thread has become about whether or not people here like her as a person/athlete/skier. She does not deserve this kind of harassment regardless of any perceived personal faults. End of story. That's like saying, "yeah, that girl was raped, but what did you expect from the way she was dressed?"

    Quote Originally Posted by klar View Post
    For some athletes I care about the backstory, for others I don't. For me that depends on the person, not so much the gender. Regarding who gets what kind of sponsorship deals for what kind for what kind of talent, I figure it doesn't make much sense to compare things strictly by gender and who is "better". I know women and men who I consider to be better than me at skiing who are not sponsored, and women and men who are. I also know women and men who I do not consider to be better than me at skiing who are sponsored in some form or other.
    Well said, klar.
    Last edited by auvgeek; 04-25-2017 at 11:32 AM.
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  18. #168
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    Caroline Gleich Harrassment Story

    Quote Originally Posted by telefreewasatch View Post
    Harassment is wrong. Harassment of people, animals, plants, the planet, everything. Never bought into it not even in the terrible twos.

    Blah, blah, blah...

    So, yeah, until she womans up she will continue to be a target if she is going to continue to use social media to put bread on her table.
    Let's just boil this dipshit hot take down to the greatest hits to simplify it for the reader:

    1. Harassment is wrong.
    2. Unless the victim does a bunch of things to deserve it. Of which you are the judge.
    3. In which case they should expect it.
    Last edited by benfjord; 04-26-2017 at 06:52 AM.

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by klar View Post
    hahaha there are less women in action sports because men are stupid? I like this train of thought.

    and one more time re. the Caroline Gleich thing: she apparently has some kind of stalker who is harassing her. Whether or not anyone likes her or whether she is more model or athlete seems to me about as relevant to this issue as whether she prefers pizza or pasta for lunch. Why exactly is the discussion primarily about people's feelings about her, rather than, say, about how to combat and prevent this kind of harassment?
    I don't know if there is a good way to combat or prevent it. Especially for people who put so much of themselves into the public space whether for work or by choice. If someone wants to connect the dots and has the motivation, they can.

    Telling people from a young age that it isn't ok only can accomplish so much, there will be the few people who choose to ignore that. And they may not be easy to find for the purpose of punishment. Better policies by companies to remove people who are harassing might help, but they also have an incentive to make signing up easier. For a professional skier who needs to use social media, adjusting privacy settings is a non option without finding another job. I don't have any good solutions to offer


    Also, I hope she prefers pizza for lunch

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by klar View Post
    hahaha there are less women in action sports because men are stupid? I like this train of thought.

    and one more time re. the Caroline Gleich thing: she apparently has some kind of stalker who is harassing her. Whether or not anyone likes her or whether she is more model or athlete seems to me about as relevant to this issue as whether she prefers pizza or pasta for lunch. Why exactly is the discussion primarily about people's feelings about her, rather than, say, about how to combat and prevent this kind of harassment?
    I have been eating popcorn waiting around for someone to mention why did TGR thought Carloine's story was "newsorthy" more stoke, less shit

  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by media310 View Post
    I have been eating popcorn waiting around for someone to mention why did TGR thought Carloine's story was "newsorthy" more stoke, less shit
    Where did klar question whether Caroline's story was newsworthy? From what I read, klar wrote never implied the story wasn't newsworthy. She said personal feelings about Caroline Gleich are irrelevant to the harassment issue.

    Furthermore, I think it's "newsworthy" when a visible member of the ski community is being harassed. We should support Caroline for calling out this creep, regardless of our personal feelings of her as a person or pro skier. I mean, would it be more "newsworthy" if it had been Betty Dee being harassed?
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  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    clearly the Caucasian male heternormative beauty gaze is powerful, with long history, but surely there's some ownership of it now by women? Men aren't the direct consumer of beauty/fashion products aimed at women - who apparently prefer straight, attractive to the prior mentioned beauty gaze, sports stars to advertise them.
    okay, I saw your edit. Sure, some of the issues surrounding body image and beauty standards in general are partly or fully on women. But considering action sports specifically, I do not feel like I was ever given a meaningful choice about what kind of people model the products I might like to buy. I would much prefer to buy something that is advertised with imagery of a woman ripping at whatever she does, not with imagery of a woman looking cute. I do not think women want to buy skis or a mountain bike because the model in the ad has good hair. A model looking sexy does not make me want to buy a sports bra. Some brands are starting to come round, but by and large the percentage of cute vs ripping females in ads for sports stuff is pretty skewed. There seems to be some assumption that women like images of attractive women, simply because there are so many images of attractive women. This issue has been widely discussed especially in surfing, for example after that roxy ad for a bikini that showed a pro surfer showering and rolling around in bed but not actually surfing.

    I am not claiming that I know the answer to why there are so few women in action sports, by the way. I do feel that the outdoor/action sports industry is in many ways not a level playing field. There have been some interesting discussions about gender stereotypes and nature vs nurture in past threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by abraham View Post
    I don't know if there is a good way to combat or prevent it. Especially for people who put so much of themselves into the public space whether for work or by choice. If someone wants to connect the dots and has the motivation, they can.

    Telling people from a young age that it isn't ok only can accomplish so much, there will be the few people who choose to ignore that. And they may not be easy to find for the purpose of punishment. Better policies by companies to remove people who are harassing might help, but they also have an incentive to make signing up easier. For a professional skier who needs to use social media, adjusting privacy settings is a non option without finding another job. I don't have any good solutions to offer
    How does one combat any kind of crime? Telling kids not to do something will never have a perfect success rate and neither will clear legal definitions of crimes and corresponding and routinely enforced punishments, but those things are an important start. Just because there are no perfect solutions doesn't mean doing nothing is a viable option. The line between free speech and harassment seems more blurry on the internet than in an offline setting (people seem to agree the voicemail crossed a line. is that really so different from an email?), probably because the internet hasn't been around that long and legal regulations of any kind are hard to establish, let alone enforce.

    I get that solutions are not easy to come by but this is a problem that wont just go away and, as you pointed out, simply not using social media or the internet in general is not an option. Social norms (and laws too, I think) will have to adjust to new forms of communication tech and patterns.
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    we combat this one by figuring out who this is and putting him on the infamous list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by klar View Post

    How does one combat any kind of crime? Telling kids not to do something will never have a perfect success rate and neither will clear legal definitions of crimes and corresponding and routinely enforced punishments, but those things are an important start. Just because there are no perfect solutions doesn't mean doing nothing is a viable option. The line between free speech and harassment seems more blurry on the internet than in an offline setting (people seem to agree the voicemail crossed a line. is that really so different from an email?), probably because the internet hasn't been around that long and legal regulations of any kind are hard to establish, let alone enforce.

    I get that solutions are not easy to come by but this is a problem that wont just go away and, as you pointed out, simply not using social media or the internet in general is not an option. Social norms (and laws too, I think) will have to adjust to new forms of communication tech and patterns.
    I know I didn't have much to add, mostly idly posting while making coffee. I agree about the voicemail vs email distinction to some level, though I have a bad tendency to ignore both of them. The reaction to voicemail may be that we think of voice as far more personal than text, and it's easier to review text before sending.

    But this isn't new, I also thought​ about Scott Abraham even though that was before I was very aware of the internet. I didn't know he had a tgr profile as linked below but I'm not surprised.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smooth Johnson View Post
    Anybody else notice a certain special someone in the comments thread? You know...the kind of special someone who was legally banned from posting on a ski site because his harassment was so over the top.

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    Quote Originally Posted by auvgeek View Post
    Actually, plenty, speaking for myself. But I generally don't come on to TGR to complain about any pros. Still, I think it's sad that we have come to a point in our culture when we can't comment on a public figure's persona without being criticized of dismissing their race or gender.

    It's also really sad and in exceptionally poor taste that this thread has become about whether or not people here like her as a person/athlete/skier. She does not deserve this kind of harassment regardless of any perceived personal faults. End of story. That's like saying, "yeah, that girl was raped, but what did you expect from the way she was dressed?"
    I agree with this for sure. You should be able to criticize or dislike people for whatever reason you want. It's using very loaded language to dismiss someone offhand that I don't like. Calling women whiny or bitchy or whatever carries a lot of weight since it's historically used in certain ways.

    Saying "harassment is bad, but" pisses me off too.

    If you don't like her that's cool, but it's your problem. Not hers. And it's not a reason for her to get death threats from internet stalkers.

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