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  1. #51
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    coated nylon is just coated nylon the cheapest option and it doesnt breath, then there is the real Gortex made by Gore and then there is all the wannabe gorelike stuff the sympatex or eclipse or entrant or rampart or any waterproof breathable they can't call gortex

    the coated nylon used in dry suits is just a impervious layer of nylon, its like wearing a garbage bag so you really got to have your layering right but chances are you will sweat, the real Gortex from Kokatat is the rolls royce of dry suits and pretty fucking good, I got a couple of kokotat gortex suits here and I notice the backing is light grey so i assume that is the tricot, i am always suspect of the gore wannabe's in an extreme app like the drysuit and so i won't touch it

    you wash a dry suit becuz it gets dirty/stinks/ body oils get imparted to it but you can't heat dry it or the latex seals will melt



    I have been fixing the suits for the paddle bro's over the last 20 years and it added up over to a fair amount of suits over the years, mostly it was fixing small holes or gluing in new seals for bros some of whom were deadbeats and dirtbags

    But last year I started working for a large rescue 3 provider keeping their fleet of drysuits running, they also give a ton of SWR courses and then sell the trained up people the gear, a SAR out fit will get some funding so they buy 6 suits at a time its a license to print money, eventulay the customer has abused the gear enough so they send the stuff in to the sales guy and I fix it for the sales coordinator who deals with the customers & gear MFGers so I only have to deal with one guy

    our conversation often goes " did these guys drop acid before they designed this piece of shit who the fuck makes stuff like this? or hey the tape on this piece of shit is too far gone to glue up with plastidip ? Hey could you tell these endlosers to give a good splanation of the problem cause i can't find any leaks "

    so if you buy a piece of shit we/I will do what we can but in most cases the end loser is stuck with a piece of shit
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    coated nylon is just coated nylon the cheapest option and it doesnt breath, then there is the real Gortex made by Gore and then there is all the wannabe gorelike stuff the sympatex or eclipse or entrant or rampart or any waterproof breathable they can't call gortex

    the coated nylon used in dry suits is just a impervious layer of nylon, its like wearing a garbage bag so you really got to have your layering right but chances are you will sweat, the real Gortex from Kokatat is the rolls royce of dry suits and pretty fucking good, I got a couple of kokotat gortex suits here and I notice the backing is light grey so i assume that is the tricot, i am always suspect of the gore wannabe's in an extreme app like the drysuit and so i won't touch it

    you wash a dry suit becuz it gets dirty/stinks/ body oils get imparted to it but you can't heat dry it or the latex seals will melt



    I have been fixing the suits for the paddle bro's over the last 20 years and it added up over to a fair amount of suits over the years, mostly it was fixing small holes or gluing in new seals for bros some of whom were deadbeats and dirtbags

    But last year I started working for a large rescue 3 provider keeping their fleet of drysuits running, they also give a ton of SWR courses and then sell the trained up people the gear, a SAR out fit will get some funding so they buy 6 suits at a time its a license to print money, eventulay the customer has abused the gear enough so they send the stuff in to the sales guy and I fix it for the sales coordinator who deals with the customers & gear MFGers so I only have to deal with one guy

    our conversation often goes " did these guys drop acid before they designed this piece of shit who the fuck makes stuff like this? or hey the tape on this piece of shit is too far gone to glue up with plastidip ? Hey could you tell these endlosers to give a good splanation of the problem cause i can't find any leaks "

    so if you buy a piece of shit we/I will do what we can but in most cases the end loser is stuck with a piece of shit
    from one repair guy, to another, ^ this sounds like a sweet gig, dont be surprised if or after the lurkers from other brands read all this, (they are on here trust me) if u dont get a pm from them.... it can make u feel like your doing something good/ right/special, but after being contacted by some these ppl, i mostly feel like they just want to use me, ive had $500 mil+ private companies as well as publicly traded along with tons of small, they all just want free knowledge, really no upside imo.... butcwith your paws on all those goods a design theif would pump u up to gain the insight u have from seeing all the repairs,..... make them do their own work....

    plus kokatat is a premier biz thats been around like 50 yrs, he trusts u and obviously likes what u are doing or he wouldnt let u fiddle with their stuff, im fortunate to have someone on my team that was close to those norcal ops like them and moonstone.... i have a lot of respect for both of them (r.i.p.moonstone).....
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiCol View Post
    kokatat has been around since 70’s and only brand operation outside of us running seam taping machines i know of, exception may be older Simms...
    so are you saying the tape sucks on many products cuz nobody is using the proper machine ?

    not 5 days after I got fed up with fixing stuff for bro's the head of this very legit company offered to pay me $$ to fix their suits, no fucking around/ one point of contact and the contact is really good so I'm still at it

    these are suits we use for courses that we own or suits we have sold to customers that we charge $ to keep running so we are not affilitaed with Kokatat or any MFGer but i like what Kokotat does so i buy their stuff for my own use,

    I'm a retired skiing gentleman ... no danger of getting a job up here
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    so are you saying the tape sucks on many products cuz nobody is using the proper machine ?

    not 5 days after I got fed up with fixing stuff for bro's the head of this very legit company offered to pay me $$ to fix their suits, no fucking around/ one point of contact and the contact is really good so I'm still at it

    these are suits we use for courses that we own or suits we have sold to customers that we charge $ to keep running so we are not affilitaed with Kokatat or any MFGer but i like what Kokotat does so i buy their stuff for my own use,

    I'm a retired skiing gentleman ... no danger of getting a job up here

    possibly wrong or old machines, only gore requires their own special machine, most failing tape usually happens because operator running machine too fast, wrong heat and or pressure setting, bad glue, tape covering 2 different types of fabric at seam, or no/ lax quality control.... the qc i teach but we still seam to have some ppl that do not do the exam as i taught.....

    there certainly could be some vietnam operation that got set up with a different type of seaming machine.... like for inflatables, tents/awnings etc and some over zealous rep at a source show sold a brand on making their gear cheaper....

    sounds like youre in a good spot all the way round
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  5. #55
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    It's Spring. Wash your ski clothes.

    Quote Originally Posted by MiCol View Post
    let's see a pic
    what's the age of jacket
    how many times have you washed it


    here ya go
    just let me know (and everybody else here) if you can get the same results
    I have not. I also own a gallon or two of a major chemical co brand's dwr that they try to sell to us by the drum. I considered repacking
    and selling to my thousands of jacket customers. easy money , right? but I could not get the results of oem applied dwr, so i scratched the project. if you can get the results like the video below, please share with us all because everyone will benefit. please share the results step by step. Their video kinda does that but something must be missing because I cannot replicate. also, please report how long it lasts if you can get it to bead up like video
    I’m attaching 2 pictures of my jacket. It’s grimy in other places, too, but it’s hard to see in the photos off my phone. Jacket was tagged in feb 2012. The jacket has been washed 3-4 times. Last time I washed it was two winters ago after it got super muddy during a late night downpour trench digging exercise. Most recently, I bought a frogg toggs jacket to serve that duty of working in the mud around the house while its raining.

    I wash with a nikwax liquid soap. I use tx-direct spray-on dwr. My experience has been that it’s never the same as the original dwr treatment.

    But what’s the solution? I originally washed the jacket because it was getting grimy and the face fabric was wetting out.
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  6. #56
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    It's Spring. Wash your ski clothes.

    ^^^
    I have never been able to get a good result with the spray-on by it's self. I have gotten a good result with the wash in, then hitting high (backpack) wear areas with the spray after. I generally wash my stuff at least once a season, the current kit is at least 7 years old and while starting to show wear is holding up well.

    For specific stains, PM Seatown Slackey, he is the master of removing grease stains.
    Alpental Indigenous

  7. #57
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    As you say its just not the same after you wash your gortex BUT at some point the fabric wets out if not washed so thats not really the answer ??

    About all you can do IS , I would just machine wash with powdered detergent,

    you can probably get those dirt stains out by rubbing with a spray-on laundry stain remover like SHOUT before you wash in the detergent

    wash again another cycle in just water to get out any residual soap and re-treat while wet with a spray-on DWR

    OR try the solvent based dwr renew which BTW you spray on a dry garment

    Big steve swears by the stuff but I can't say for certain if its better than all the water based products which all seem to work about the same when i tested them
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by bodywhomper View Post
    I’m attaching 2 pictures of my jacket. It’s grimy in other places, too, but it’s hard to see in the photos off my phone. Jacket was tagged in feb 2012. The jacket has been washed 3-4 times. Last time I washed it was two winters ago after it got super muddy during a late night downpour trench digging exercise. Most recently, I bought a frogg toggs jacket to serve that duty of working in the mud around the house while its raining.

    I wash with a nikwax liquid soap. I use tx-direct spray-on dwr. My experience has been that it’s never the same as the original dwr treatment.

    But what’s the solution? I originally washed the jacket because it was getting grimy and the face fabric was wetting out.
    wetting out is the lack of dwr (as others stated). 2012 is probably too old to expect original dwr to still be there (altho it is possible) if not washed. If you wash, the chemicals in the soap will remove the dwr. (the same ones that are removing stains are removing your dwr)

    imo, I am afraid you are out of luck with regards to preventing that jacket from wetting out. I have some neoshell softshell pants i made that are about 5-6 years old now. the dwr is gone in seat and top of hamstrings and they have only been washed once with tekwash prior to applying spray and dry dwr retreatment. (yeah, no smells either, seriously, none). I have used spray on and dry products and they have not worked at all, no beading after application and following directions. I resorted to scotchguard out of a spray can. That does not work either, ok, maybe, just maybe, one wearing and not very well at best. I will continue to use the pants in cold dry conditions because they are my favorites.

    Best practice is not use your favorite ski jacket to do work tasks outside of skiing or touring. You will hurt/erode the dwr as you wear and rub the garment against foreign matter. (much in the same way your pack straps remove dwr from shoulders).

    As far as that cuff dirt, you should try tap water on white terry cloth white towel and spot rubbing. make sure to only use wet and clean parts of the towel to do this. The rest of the jacket looks pretty clean for red. if that jacket was really truly a candidate for washing the yellow zipper tape should be like black with dirt and fingerprints. But, I know you said you washed it. (zipper tape usually doesnt come that clean in wash so i suspect this garment was never truly thrashed) I would not be washing for what I see on it right now if it still had dwr. since it is already gone, it doesn't really matter anymore.

    wish i had a better secret, but imo i have yet to see one that retreats dwr to factory oem specs. btw: that revivex video i posted on page 2 looks edited and does not appear to show the same part of the jacket that they showed at first that was wetting out.
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  9. #59
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    I never bother to treat Neoshell, I just wash in the machine

    I don't use Neo at the hill cuz its not all that water resistant doesnt provide enough wind/weather resistance for me

    I've used it alot for touring tho and up here its usually below zero C anyhow so I get less wet
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  10. #60
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    Hey MiCool, can you make a jacket that has a burly totally waterproof section on the shoulders where the backpack straps rub? And put the same stuff on the thighs and asses of ski pants.

    That’d be cool.

  11. #61
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    Also in the group that has never had great luck with renewing DWR. I pretty much do what MiCol suggests. Try to keep my outerwear nice for as long as possible without washing, may wash once at some point and then eventually it isn't waterproof enough for storm duty. Then it gets retired to work/dry day use. Usually can get 2-3 (80 days/season) seasons out of outerwear this way. Even if washed regularly, I can't imagine it lasting longer than that, especially pants.

  12. #62
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    Thanks for the responses and recommendations.

    w/ my personal jacket (marmot) with pictures posted up-thread, i initially washed it when it got dirty and started wetting out due to dirt/contamination of the outer face fabric. i notice the areas showing the most grime on my gtx jacket are on seams or the outer edge of the seam tape, where the jacket is "stiffer." there's a fair bit of grime in those locations along the collar and back seam areas. when my gtx or gtx-like garments reach the point in use and get washed, i generally accept that their DWR will never be the same. My understanding (and experience) has always been that the jacket is still waterproof, but the vapor transport ("breath-ability") has been compromised. so you get wetting in the inside from perspiration.

    this is not my ski jacket except for multi-day BC trips where i feel the need to have a waterproof jacket for safety. i overheat too quick for a waterproof ski jacket. Of course, my non waterproof ski jacket (aka windbreaker) is pretty dirty, too. for me, it's a simply understanding about ownership of a high price jacket.

    when i worked at marmot mtn works, it was often very challenging to explain all of this to customers about how DWR and the membrane functioned.

    whatever happened to EPIC fabric? what about that new fabric that TNF is pushing?

    i like my new-ish current strategy of using the cheap frogg trogg jacket and pants when doing dirty work where i want waterproof outer clothes. this past weekend, i did a lot of tree thinning and slash hauling in heavy downpours and temps in the 40's. i wore my frogg trogg clothes during downpours or if i was starting to get soaked carrying wet slash. my observation is that the frogg trogg fabric "breathes" better than PVC fabric. they fit like shit and will likely tear at the sight of a granite wall, but the set was $30.

    cheers

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK47bp View Post
    Hey MiCool, can you make a jacket that has a burly totally waterproof section on the shoulders where the backpack straps rub? And put the same stuff on the thighs and asses of ski pants.

    That’d be cool.
    like these? lol...
    they had 400D coated nylon over generic wpb fabric (black) , polartec (green)
    pants were cotton with 400D coated nylon

    circa 2012
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    nylus......
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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiCol View Post
    like these? lol...
    they had 400D coated nylon over generic wpb fabric (black) , polartec (green)
    pants were cotton with 400D coated nylon

    circa 2012
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    nylus......
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    ha ha
    someone just sent me this.....
    freeride/fulsus goes to Everest....with abc
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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK47bp View Post
    Hey MiCool, can you make a jacket that has a burly totally waterproof section on the shoulders where the backpack straps rub?

    That’d be cool.
    some wetter days i’ve worn a condom shell over a clean shell.
    bF
    Alpental Indigenous

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiCol View Post
    ha ha
    someone just sent me this.....
    freeride/fulsus goes to Everest....with abc
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    winning
    bF
    Alpental Indigenous

  17. #67
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    Praxis Rx is real winning
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  18. #68
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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiCol View Post
    like these? lol...
    they had 400D coated nylon over generic wpb fabric (black) , polartec (green)
    pants were cotton with 400D coated nylon

    circa 2012
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    nylus......
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    Hell yea! Bring’em back new and improved. Who needs shoulder breathability? Nobody.

    And the pants, waterproof thighs and asses....sign me up. You can name them “LiftRiders”.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiCol View Post
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    BOOM! Nice

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiCol View Post
    just wondering if you have you run a seam taping machine?
    Yes, they let me run a Gore-seam machine for a few minutes on the factory tour. Not that easy to do well even with the speed on "2", and this wasn't even the 8mm one. Respect for the people who do this with the speed all the way up for a living.

    My take on washing?

    DWR coatings will never be better than OEM, every time you wash the garment you lose effectiveness.

    Face fabrics aren't compromised by surface dirt (clean with a wet washcloth and mild detergent) but saturation with oil makes them pull water into the weave. Some washing makes sense.

    ePTFE membranes are almost always more effective when kept clean. If you sweat a lot, especially in a 3L garment close to your skin, it should be washed regularly. That scenario usually means touring in the rain, which I prefer not to do anyway - normally my puffy soaks up most of the sweat.

    Personally I wash my outerwear about once every 30-40 days, but if it's really wet out I pick the garments with the fewest washes for the day. (Full disclosure: I have access to good outerwear for cheap and normally have 2-3 of the same jacket and 2 of the same pant in circulation at a time). YMMV.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregL View Post
    ePTFE membranes are almost always more effective when kept clean.
    That applies to DWR compounds in the pores, too. Hence "spray on" DWR rather than "wash-in" . . .

  23. #73
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    By the time a garment needs to have the DWR re-applied (2-3 real washings) it is no longer in my rotation. If you live in a wet place and can afford it, this is the way to go.

    If you are re-applying DWR, I've had luck with a 2 step process - apply spray on DWR to the damp garment and put in the dryer on medium heat, then spray the warm garment in key areas again (shoulders and back, butt and knees) and let dry before manually ironing at medium low heat. Some manufacturers used to mention this, but people had a hard time figuring out what "medium low" meant and there were delam problems. On my iron, I use the bottom end of the "wool" range. Had a problem with an eVent coat at one point, but never any with GORE-TEX, GORE Active or GORE Pro.

    The currently available DWR solutions (all 6-chain) seem to work about the same for me, but none is as good as the old 8-chain compounds (old school Revivex, Scotchguard) which are now illegal. If you can find a stash of the old stuff in someone's garage and don't mind poisoning yourself a bit, they work better.

  24. #74
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    ^^when I’m trying hard, that’s the method that I’ve used, low heat dryer and low heat iron. Though I now wonder about the temp as it relates to the seam tape adhesive. All by gtx failures have been on taped seams, but the garments were all over 10 yrs old.

    What about “welded” seams?

    gregL, you’ve got a good gig. When I was in retail (buyer), I could only afford the rare old trade show samples or the rare very deep discount. Even spent a summer being homeless and living in a (rental) tent in a friend’s backyard because we could not afford a rental in the general (transit/bike-able) vicinity. My skis at that time were either gifted from the reps or shop-owned.

  25. #75
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    i had a heat welded patagucci ascentionist soft shell I really liked that (glued actualy) fell apart in the dryer, got warranty no problem

    I try to limit the heat cycle in the dryer so instead of set it/forget it and letting a piece get really hot in a 45 minute cycle keep an eye on it so maybe just until the face fabric looks dry

    I have used an iron on dry tops cuz you can't put them in the dryer or the latex seals will be fubared and I think it worked

    we recently had an NRS drysuit that I thot was too bad to repair, one of a series of NRS where the tape would delam, one of the guys just ironed all the tape back on which seemed to work. Before I started there they had been painting the seams with plasti dip whih looked like shit but apparently worked
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

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