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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skistack View Post
    My takeaway is that skiing into trees can kill you.
    Yup.
    Fuck trees.
    Just one more reason to go above treeline.
    In search of the elusive artic powder weasel ...

  2. #27
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    A business doesn't want to have a lot of death associated to it? No way.

    This article is a huge reach.
    dirtbag, not a dentist

  3. #28
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    All the warnings and education and statistics and safety measures in the world aren't going to keep people from being stupid or from being unlucky. Some safety measures keep the resorts from being sued. That's it.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    All the warnings and education and statistics and safety measures in the world aren't going to keep people from being stupid or from being unlucky.
    Now, try using that statement about backcountry avi risk.
    I've read many an account of mistakes made in the backcountry by lucky survivors, and non profit agencies that immediately jump in and study those accidents are the reason we know as much as we do. Why not in bounds? Just, you know, for kicks? Afraid of what you'll learn? Why?

    Let's do some livin'
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  5. #30
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    The 5 o'clock news will pick it up:

    "Tonight on FOX31: Hitting this simple common hard object at high speed can kill you! But ski areas don't want you know! Find out what it is after the break!"

    Anchor: "Thanks for staying tuned to FOX! Now, Teresa with our main investigative expose: TREES: FRIEND OR FOE?"

    Teresa: "Though they turn snow-melting-CO2 into breathable oxygen, trees have been secretly murdering skiers and their crimes have been covered up by the ski areas... why you may ask? Is it because the ski areas are so afraid of global warming that they consider killer trees a necessary evil? We asked professor Den I. Dob-Vious of Colorado Christian University and W.R. Hearst III, owner of the Scummit Daily Skews."

    Prof. Dob-Vyus: "Well these ski areas are run by a bunch of deluded liberals who believe in so called 'human caused global warming.' They actually think that trees make snow. But we know that only Jesus can make snow."

    Hearst III: "Well not sure how Jesus got into this, but..."

    Prof Dob-Vious: "Jesus is in everything?"

    Hearst III: "I think I'll have a reporter do a 29 part series about how Jesus is getting into things uninvited... it will sell some real estate ads!"

    Teresa: "Professor, do you think the ski areas are guilty of something?"

    Prof Dob-Vious: "They are going to burn in hell... and let me tell you... there is NO snow down there... just salt peter, Hitler, and Democrats!"

    Hearst III: "... and a 9 parter on how global warming might cause hell to freeze over... this is great!"

    Teresa: "Uh... OK... that's all we have time for... up next Donald Trump flips on another issue when he discovers that pretending that bad is good doesn't actually make it good."
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  6. #31
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    I remember talk like this when the car makers tried to pad dashboards. Furgetabout airbags.

    Let's do some livin'
    After, we die

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Wow. Well written and hard hitting from, of all papers, Summit Daily. I would expect this from the Denver Post.
    Compared to what?
    Smacks of conspiracy theory/smoking gun BS...
    Skiing is an inherently dangerous activity - Just getting off a lift for instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Now, try using that statement about backcountry avi risk.
    I've read many an account of mistakes made in the backcountry by lucky survivors, and non profit agencies that immediately jump in and study those accidents are the reason we know as much as we do. Why not in bounds? Just, you know, for kicks? Afraid of what you'll learn? Why?
    And you don't think ski area risk management types aren't all over this?
    You're kidding yourself - What insurance underwriter wants people to be unsafe at a ski area, let along die from an accident?
    Alpental Indigenous

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACH View Post


    And you don't think ski area risk management types aren't all over this?
    No.

    I used to think so, until they started building parks, and then I thought, wtf?

    Let's do some livin'
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by blazes_boylan View Post
    the writer of this piece doesn't do the best job getting his point across, but it seems the point trying to be made here is that ski resorts try really hard to keep deaths on the slopes quiet (the article doesn't address this, but a number of resorts have gag rules for employees about on-mountain deaths), and promote the idea that resorts are disneyland with no danger. It does seem a little more honesty on this issue could result in more awareness of dangers and better overall safety. But yes, some of the premises, like choosing another resort over Keystone would save your life, is kinda ridiculously over the top [insert keystone joke here].
    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Well, to summarize, the reporter has found out that there are no laws or regulations that govern the data gathering of inbound skier deaths in Colorado. That's pretty interesting in itself, considering the size of that industry, and how important it is to the state's economy. Hell, as mentioned, there is much more transparency around backcountry avi deaths.
    But, we do know the numbers, and, I suppose, in the next two articles, the reporter may try to figure out why so many die in Summit County. I have my own opinion, as I'm sure all others here do, but, let's see what he comes up with. This does take a ton of balls for that newspaper company to publish this, since they essentially survive off the economy that those ski areas, re: Vail Inc., operate within. I'll bet some phone calls were made. It is a surprise to see this, since, as Fred said above, the Summit Daily is not exactly a place you go to for good writing about local issues - just a place to check rental and RE prices, and the local dispensery deals.
    Of course, we all prognosticate about why Breck & Keystone are "killer" resorts, and the single fair point in the article (I finally forced myself to read through) relates to coroner record keeping requirements for inbounds skiing deaths. I get that, but this reporter is trying to come off as the second coming of Gary Webb (San Jose Mercury News and the Iran Contra Affair for you young 'uns). Ah, to be a fly on the wall int the Vail Resorts board room.

    Yes, I'll bet a few discussions went on about how to approach the article and I'm as surprised that they published it in Summit County as I am with the fact that the editor allowed such lazy, cliched reporting to go to print.

    Now, our aging infrastructure and ski lifts - there's a story. That might take some work, however.

    ... Thom
    Last edited by galibier_numero_un; 04-14-2017 at 02:04 AM.
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  10. #35
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    Groomers kill. They should only groom cat tracks and green runs. Skied keystone against my will last weekend. Scary shit. Icy as fuck, double fall lines, bottle necks. Multiple trails merging at a time, and crowded full of "advanced intermediates" who think they have to go as fast as possible at all times. God I hate that shit anymore. That is not skiing to me, it is surviving a trip down the hill. Not surprised at all that people die regularly under those circumstances.

  11. #36
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    Summit Daily 3 Part Series on Skier Deaths in CO

    Give Bunny a break here. Skiing in Summit is dangerous and I'd say given his history he knows this better than anybody! But to be fair, people don't die regularly at keystone or breck or really any ski area. Let's just assume all 137 deaths occurred at breck/keystone. Then take the annual average skier visit of those two areas of ~3.3 million people over that same period and less than .0005% of the people who show up to ski die doing it. That's just using breck/keystone visits and the total deaths. The actual percentage of people dying versus total visits is way less if you consider the other resorts visits as well. But yeah, great in depth reporting!

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by shredgnar View Post
    Groomers kill. They should only groom cat tracks and green runs. Skied keystone against my will last weekend. Scary shit. Icy as fuck, double fall lines, bottle necks. Multiple trails merging at a time, and crowded full of "advanced intermediates" who think they have to go as fast as possible at all times. God I hate that shit anymore. That is not skiing to me, it is surviving a trip down the hill. Not surprised at all that people die regularly under those circumstances.
    I concur. But, I never skied Keystone. Why were you there? Too late for Abasin parking?

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  13. #38
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    The 2nd part is out too now.
    http://www.summitdaily.com/news/crim...f-a-ski-death/

    This is some terrible journalism. Sensationalism.

    Surprise, Surprise the business don't want to make it front and center that a few people die doing an action sport like skiing. What do you expect? The ski areas would want to publish a 10 page warning manual with lists of and photos of each and every fatality that visitors to their web pages have to e-sign before even getting trail maps, snow reports or booking rooms and tickets?

    My favorite absurd lines:
    maybe they'd have been able to steer Jay, an expert skier who lived in Boulder and loved heading to the mountains whenever he could, to a different resort.
    Yeah if only they had known they would have steered him to a safer resort like Buttermilk or Ski Grandby Ranch. Preposterous. Like you'd convince a young guy to go to some lame resort because "its safer"

    "I want to know if he was still alive after he hit," she said. "They said for sure he died instantly, but I can tell you the following two weeks after wouldn't have been as hard if it wasn't for that unknown. Why not do an autopsy? I don't get it."
    His fucking skull was caved in. You need an autopsy so that you don't feel bad that he couldn't have been saved? Well that sucks but getting an autopsy would have exactly 0 impact.

    What does the author think that there is some secret conspiracy where people are being murdered by injections of poison but then thrown into trees so it looks like an innocent ski accident? What the fuck could they likely discover? Oh this guy actually had a heart attack which caused him to eat shit at high speed and crash into a tree. Oh I feel a lot better about it now.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinnikinnick View Post
    The 2nd part is out too now.
    http://www.summitdaily.com/news/crim...f-a-ski-death/

    This is some terrible journalism. Sensationalism.
    It reads like a hit piece against the Summit coroner. What's this "journalist" have against her?


    "It's been hard on all of us," said Gustafson. "I just can't explain the feeling of him being there one second, and then us standing at the bottom waiting, with my gut telling me to go back up and look. They tell me he died on impact, but what if he didn't? What if he was just unconscious and something could have been done? The thought of him being out there all night by himself, it's shattered me."

    "It's haunted me, because I was 100 feet from him and I could have hiked back up," she said. "These are the questions as friends that we just don't understand. He was such a good skier, and I've seen the guy get out of some hairy situations, so can't imagine him hitting a tree. It just doesn't make sense to me."

    "I want to know if he was still alive after he hit," she said. "They said for sure he died instantly, but I can tell you the following two weeks after wouldn't have been as hard if it wasn't for that unknown. Why not do an autopsy? I don't get it."
    Gustafson knew where the guy hit the tree and didn't go back to help once she realized there was a problem? WTF? You ski in the trees with a buddy for this reason. Maybe they aren't right next to you and you lose visual contact, but you don't abandon them after you think something is wrong.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by fastfred View Post
    A few years ago the daily did some sort of article, cannot remember the jist, but it was around xmas and it was shitting on the resorts, vail pulled all their advertising for a week or two until the paper apologized, it was pretty sad.
    It was on the inflation of snow reported to actual.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinnikinnick View Post

    Yeah if only they had known they would have steered him to a safer resort like Buttermilk or Ski Grandby Ranch. Preposterous. Like you'd convince a young guy to go to some lame resort because "its safer"
    Why do you assume those two mountains are safer? Because they're lamer? But, how would you know? There's no real data. Which is sorta the point. Keystone is fucking lame. But, deadly.

    Let's do some livin'
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Keystone is fucking lame. But, deadly.
    That is sig worthy if I've ever seen one that was.

    Its probably more about the gapers who go to Keystone than it is about the runs or terrain or how they manage the thing. So in your world all the gapers should have ready access to data that says that Keystone has a higher rate of fatal crashes = "deadly" so they'll all decide to go to Vail and then suddenly the numbers will switch to Vail being the "deadly" mountain.

    The reality is that skiing has inherent dangers but that its a lot less dangerous than many other things that we do.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Driving your car to any of these ski areas is much more dangerous than skiing there.

    1 in 6700 vs 1 in 1M chance of dying

    Going to a fucking dance party is more dangerous.

    1 in 100,000!!!

    Damned someone better write an article that the dangers of dance parties needs to be disclosed to the public. "if only we had known that dance parties were so dangerous, maybe we could have convinced Patty to go to a rock concert instead of dancing!"

  18. #43
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    No, I'm just curious. Why do people die, and where? Simple. And, please, one more "skiing is dangerous and you can die", and I'm grabbing a large stick.

    Let's do some livin'
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  19. #44
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    I agree that trees are trees everywhere, and there are always going to be people who ski past their abilities, or just get unlucky, but I also firmly believe that there should be complete transparency about these accidents.

    Except for a very few outliers, the resorts are really not complicit, and transparency will lead to education and reform if needed.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    No, I'm just curious. Why do people die, and where? Simple. And, please, one more "skiing is dangerous and you can die", and I'm grabbing a large stick.
    People die because they hit hard objects at high speed.

    Or from having a heart attack out of the great feast of bunny's big stick...
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    People die because they hit hard objects at high speed.
    Are you sure about that. Can you back that up with studies?

    Let's do some livin'
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by shredgnar View Post
    Groomers kill. They should only groom cat tracks and green runs. Skied keystone against my will last weekend. Scary shit. Icy as fuck, double fall lines, bottle necks. Multiple trails merging at a time, and crowded full of "advanced intermediates" who think they have to go as fast as possible at all times. God I hate that shit anymore. That is not skiing to me, it is surviving a trip down the hill. Not surprised at all that people die regularly under those circumstances.
    Double fall-lines = 1/2 the waiting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elkhound Odin View Post
    Gustafson knew where the guy hit the tree and didn't go back to help once she realized there was a problem? WTF? You ski in the trees with a buddy for this reason. Maybe they aren't right next to you and you lose visual contact, but you don't abandon them after you think something is wrong.
    I don't know, 100' is a pretty long uphill slog.

    In search of the elusive artic powder weasel ...

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Are you sure about that. Can you back that up with studies?

    I have not done a lit review but I am in possession of enough anecdotes that they qualify as data for my needs in this discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  24. #49
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    Pretty good summary here with source references at the bottom of the page.

    Skiing (or even riding) didn't make the list though.

    http://www.romans322.com/daily-death...statistics.php

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Now, try using that statement about backcountry avi risk.
    I've read many an account of mistakes made in the backcountry by lucky survivors, and non profit agencies that immediately jump in and study those accidents are the reason we know as much as we do. Why not in bounds? Just, you know, for kicks? Afraid of what you'll learn? Why?
    Afraid of what we'll learn? Why?--are you out of your mind? I'm afraid to find out why people die in bounds? Seriously? I know why people die inbounds. They hit trees and other inanmimate objects at speed (speed meaning 20MPH or higher) and occasionally they are hit by other people big enough and fast enough to kill them. And they have heart attacks and strokes. Or ski into tree wells. The rare inbounds slide. They huck something too big or land too flat or hit a rock. But mainly they hit trees.

    You cite avalanche statistics and reports. Not comparable. The mechanisms behind avalanches are complex, the decisions people make skiing in avalanche terrain are complex, studying these things might potentially help people understand and avoid accidents. We already know what we need to know to prevent inbounds deaths--double safety fences along the sides of runs and around lift towers, prohibit tree skiing, prohibit hucking, close runs when they get firm, limit the number of people on a run at a given time to avoid crowding. Maybe eliminate grooming altogether (see below). Is this your idea of how the sport should be? How sad for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    The 5 o'clock news will pick it up:

    "Tonight on FOX31: Hitting this simple common hard object at high speed can kill you! But ski areas don't want you know! Find out what it is after the break!"

    Anchor: "Thanks for staying tuned to FOX! Now, Teresa with our main investigative expose: TREES: FRIEND OR FOE?"

    Teresa: "Though they turn snow-melting-CO2 into breathable oxygen, trees have been secretly murdering skiers and their crimes have been covered up by the ski areas... why you may ask? Is it because the ski areas are so afraid of global warming that they consider killer trees a necessary evil? We asked professor Den I. Dob-Vious of Colorado Christian University and W.R. Hearst III, owner of the Scummit Daily Skews."

    Prof. Dob-Vyus: "Well these ski areas are run by a bunch of deluded liberals who believe in so called 'human caused global warming.' They actually think that trees make snow. But we know that only Jesus can make snow."

    Hearst III: "Well not sure how Jesus got into this, but..."

    Prof Dob-Vious: "Jesus is in everything?"

    Hearst III: "I think I'll have a reporter do a 29 part series about how Jesus is getting into things uninvited... it will sell some real estate ads!"

    Teresa: "Professor, do you think the ski areas are guilty of something?"

    Prof Dob-Vious: "They are going to burn in hell... and let me tell you... there is NO snow down there... just salt peter, Hitler, and Democrats!"

    Hearst III: "... and a 9 parter on how global warming might cause hell to freeze over... this is great!"

    Teresa: "Uh... OK... that's all we have time for... up next Donald Trump flips on another issue when he discovers that pretending that bad is good doesn't actually make it good."
    LOL
    Quote Originally Posted by shredgnar View Post
    Groomers kill. They should only groom cat tracks and green runs. Skied keystone against my will last weekend. Scary shit. Icy as fuck, double fall lines, bottle necks. Multiple trails merging at a time, and crowded full of "advanced intermediates" who think they have to go as fast as possible at all times. God I hate that shit anymore. That is not skiing to me, it is surviving a trip down the hill. Not surprised at all that people die regularly under those circumstances.
    Nothing quite like making careful turns down a crowded icy groomer and have some gaper flying past you skiing sideways, in the backseat, with zero chance of turning if someone is in his way.

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