OFFICIAL 2017 MLB THREAD

**Benny Profane** · 12-11-2017, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddy

Attachment 218634

Stanton/Judge is going to make the world forget Ortiz/Ramirez or even Maris/Mantle.

Jezuz, those guys are huge.

**SkiBall** · 12-11-2017, 09:10 PM

The longer the time goes by, the better they were.

**Danno** · 12-11-2017, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by Sirshredalot

Mussina is a strong candidate, much stronger than Morris.

Yep. Moose is hurt by no CYA, and never being the best pitcher, but he was near the top for a long fucking time. Advanced stats really show how good he was

You won't find a bigger Yankee hater than me, and I still think he belongs.

**BigDaddy** · 12-11-2017, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

Yep. Moose is hurt by no CYA, and never being the best pitcher, but he was near the top for a long fucking time. Advanced stats really show how good he was

You won't find a bigger Yankee hater than me, and I still think he belongs.

Haha... I'm a bigger Yankee hater, but I actually liked meeting Mussina. Classy and needless to say, talented guy. Hated facing him.

**SkiBall** · 12-11-2017, 10:54 PM

I think of Mussina as a Bird more than a Yank.

**Danno** · 12-11-2017, 11:03 PM

Well I'm not a fan of them either.

**The AD** · 12-11-2017, 11:38 PM

The 2018 Yankees are going to hit a whole lot of homers and rack up a whole lot of strikeouts.

**irul&ublo** · 12-11-2017, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by Benny Profane

Sorry, there is only one.

Yes. And that would be Sweet Lou Johnson. Look him up.

**Brock Landers** · 12-12-2017, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by Danno

Yep. Moose is hurt by no CYA, and never being the best pitcher, but he was near the top for a long fucking time. Advanced stats really show how good he was

You won't find a bigger Yankee hater than me, and I still think he belongs.

Near the top for a long time aka the hall of very good

I'm not a biggio guy either

**I've seen black diamonds!** · 12-12-2017, 09:09 AM

I too am a Yankee hater.

Mussina was better than a lot of guys in the hall, including Tom Glavine. If he had stuck around a couple more years and made it to 300, or played on some decent teams early in his career and racked up a couple 20 min seasons, he'd be in for sure.

Pettitte? Does not belong.

What about Jorge Posada? How did he get so few votes? Voters just don't appreciate catchers. Not saying he should be in for sure, but he was good enough to linger on the ballot for a while.

**Danno** · 12-12-2017, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by Brock Landers

Near the top for a long time aka the hall of very good

I'm not a biggio guy either

6 times in top 5 for CYA (9 times top 6): 9 times in his career he was good enough to finish 6th or better in Cy Young voting, that's not just "very good".
7 gold gloves
10 more WAR than the average pitcher in the Hall (i.e. top half of all enshrined pitchers, 24th among all pitchers in history)

Not just a long good career, but sustained excellence. While having a period where you were the absolute best in the league certainly helps a candidacy, I don't think is required.

**SkiBall** · 12-12-2017, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by Danno

Well I'm not a fan of them either.

Nor am I. Unless you count Ripken...Billy of course for the the best bb card ever.

**irul&ublo** · 12-12-2017, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!

I too am a Yankee hater.

Mussina was better than a lot of guys in the hall, including Tom Glavine.

Comparable. Not better. To Glavine, that is

**ex-powderbroker** · 12-12-2017, 10:11 AM

I looked up Pettite's stats again just to take a look and noticed he racked up an 8.4 WAR in 1997 -- his best year. In the voting he finished 5th in the cy young, Roger Clemens won with his monstrous 11.2war 222era+ season. Those are some freaking crazy stats that have been lost to the other stuff surrounding that guy.

**SkiBall** · 12-12-2017, 10:15 AM

PED's taint em both...even though there are so many that never got "caught" that made it in.

**GeezerSteve** · 12-12-2017, 10:50 AM

**Sirshredalot** · 12-12-2017, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Brock Landers

Near the top for a long time aka the hall of very good

I'm not a biggio guy either

I'm more of a peak guy than a long-career guy, too.

Mussina was handily the second-best pitcher in the AL when he was in his prime. But I'm okay with leaving him out if that's not good enough for you (but then there is 0 case for Morris).

Biggio was fantastic in his prime. Go look at his stats in baseball reference or read the old Bill James essay comparing him to Griffey. He was bad for the last five years of his career, but I don't think it's fair to hold that against him. He was one of the five or ten best second basemen of all time.

**Danno** · 12-12-2017, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Sirshredalot

I'm more of a peak guy than a long-career guy, too.

Mussina was handily the second-best pitcher in the AL when he was in his prime. But I'm okay with leaving him out if that's not good enough for you (but then there is 0 case for Morris).

TBH, I too am more of a peak guy than just long career counting stats guy. And I still believe Moose deserves it, because he wasn't just a good player for a long time, he was excellent, one of the best pitchers in the league, for a very long time. But yeah, if your criteria is "must at some point be the single best pitcher in the league" then I will admit he doesn't meet that (but only misses by a very small amount).

**Brock Landers** · 12-12-2017, 01:09 PM

Mike Mussina Kevin Brown Roy Halladay cc sabathia Kevin appier Andy pettitte David Cone Tim Hudson chuck Finley bob fucking Welch curt schilling are all really good pitchers and they're all in the same ballpark. They just don't do it for me. Maybe halladay? He at least won 2 Cy youngs.

Just ahead of the next group, al leiter Jose Rijo mike Hampton Jamie Moyer and the never forgotten...dave stieb

**ex-powderbroker** · 12-12-2017, 02:07 PM

i'm with you about keeping things in the hall small, but it kind of means kicking people out (which will never happen). Otherwise, the names you mention don't have much in common outside of the era.

halladay has a really nice era+, world series rings, cy youngs, and now sentimental value
schilling has a nice case with the WS wins, very good era+, but low win total
cc has a case, will depend on schilling because they're pretty comparable
brown was kind of a mercenary (which will hurt him), good pitcher but low wins and not much of a HOF case, same as cone.
tim hudson, nice pitcher, shorter career, no real HOF case
appier and welch were pretty just-above-average, not even sure why you'd add them to any list.

Pettite, I'd be fine with him getting a few years and falling off if Jack Morris didn't just get in.

**SkiBall** · 12-12-2017, 04:12 PM

If they don't make you go "Damn that dude was SO fucking good", I think they don't go in. Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux had completely different styles, but both were really damn good. Time can really cloud (my) memories of how some may measure up, so maybe in some ways they didn't really stand out as much for what I expect a HOF career would be. I am not the be all end all obviously but I don't need some institution to tell me who really mattered to me. Historically speaking though, it is nice. But how big should this building be? In the end, one's memories are all that really matter.

**Brock Landers** · 12-13-2017, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by ml242

i'm with you about keeping things in the hall small, but it kind of means kicking people out (which will never happen). Otherwise, the names you mention don't have much in common outside of the era.

halladay has a really nice era+, world series rings, cy youngs, and now sentimental value
schilling has a nice case with the WS wins, very good era+, but low win total
cc has a case, will depend on schilling because they're pretty comparable
brown was kind of a mercenary (which will hurt him), good pitcher but low wins and not much of a HOF case, same as cone.
tim hudson, nice pitcher, shorter career, no real HOF case
appier and welch were pretty just-above-average, not even sure why you'd add them to any list.

Pettite, I'd be fine with him getting a few years and falling off if Jack Morris didn't just get in.

They're all in the same boat. All really good pitchers. Mussina had a 3.68, never won anything, no era, strikeout, cy young, World Series, no big games. He has the 270 wins, that's big, but for me it isn't the whole thing (again, not a biggio guy). Schilling...no for me. I don't care that Morris got in.

Halladay...he's the Yes of the group. A Title. 2 cy youngs, 200 wins on a shit blue jays team for most of his career. 8xall star. Multiple top 3 cy young votes, MVP consideration, generally one of the very best. He's everything people are saying Mussina was. Except better. He is the hall of famer, better than hall of very good

And how quick are we to dismiss Kevin Brown? 2 era titles, 2 strikeout titles, 200+ wins, much lower era than Mussina. More AS game appearances. Similar cy young rankings.

Bob Welch won a cy young. Won over 200 games. Lower era than Mussina.

Tim hudson's 'short career' was 17 years and 223 wins. Lower era than Mussina. One less all star game. Also a second place cy young finish (to Pedro in 2000).

**Danno** · 12-13-2017, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Brock Landers

They're all in the same boat. All really good pitchers. Mussina had a 3.68, never won anything, no era, strikeout, cy young, World Series, no big games. He has the 270 wins, that's big, but for me it isn't the whole thing (again, not a biggio guy). Schilling...no for me. I don't care that Morris got in.

Halladay...he's the Yes of the group. A Title. 2 cy youngs, 200 wins on a shit blue jays team for most of his career. 8xall star. Multiple top 3 cy young votes, MVP consideration, generally one of the very best. He's everything people are saying Mussina was. Except better. He is the hall of famer, better than hall of very good

And how quick are we to dismiss Kevin Brown? 2 era titles, 2 strikeout titles, 200+ wins, much lower era than Mussina. More AS game appearances. Similar cy young rankings.

Bob Welch won a cy young. Won over 200 games. Lower era than Mussina.

Tim hudson's 'short career' was 17 years and 223 wins. Lower era than Mussina. One less all star game. Also a second place cy young finish (to Pedro in 2000).

Neither Hudson nor Welch has a lower ERA+ than Moose, FWIW, which is a better measure. Neither comes within 25 WAR (25!) of Moose. They're not even close. And, FWIW, Moose probably should have won the CYA in 2001 (when Clemens did; Moose finished 5th, take a look at all stats here).

Halladay has a good case for the HoF, he's got the awards and certainly was clearly the "best pitcher in the league" at some point, but if you actually compare their stats, Moose stands up. Halladay is about 800IP less, so 4 really full seasons, and is 17WAR behind, so he would have to be really good, all star (but not Cy Young) quality, over 4 full seasons to catch Moose. And for all his greatness, Moose was in the top 6 of CYA voting more times than Doc.

Kevin Brown is an interesting case. He certainly should have gotten much more respect from voters. I think he does have some similarities to Moose, and is hurt by the mercenary aspect of his career. But I think he was just not quite as good.