Anyone in Oroville, CA?

[plugboots]

Just run a conveyor backup the hill and use the rock to fill the hole. Slap on a bit of concrete and it's golden.

They could borrow the conveyer from a local micro-brew bottling line.

[Rideski]

Will the plane take off?

[PB]

Drought was certainly convenient for the Folsom spillway upgrade...

Ouch!

Although that does need to be answered: if there were obvious indications that the main spillway was problematic as early as 2013, who kicked the can into the future? The crusty cynic in me does, however, doubt that any one would have listened if you claimed to have prescient knowledge of the impending near catastrophe.

With all due respect/sympathy to the town of Oroville, I would have hard time not cringing at the prospect of another 4+ years of dehydration just to properly get a long term solution in place.

Bit of a conundrum, eh?

[LightRanger]

Indeed. But my understanding is that the cracking they patched on the spillway at Oroville in 2013 (and 2009) wasn't necessarily indicative of significant failure. Whereas the Folsom spillway upgrade (and near-future dam height raising) is to better engineer it. Folsom Dam was originally built with the understanding that Auburn Dam would be built too. The Bureau has since realized that's never going to happen (psssttt... somebody should tell Congressman McClintock), especially since the State Board revoked their diversion permit for not diligently putting it to beneficial use. So they've since decided to upgrade and armor Folsom against bigger inflows. Crazy important given the size of the watershed, its precipitation characteristics, climate change, and the lack of downstream flood control infrastructure before hitting really important property along the river.

[PB]

So .... your saying the 2009 fix didn't work, but the they had the fullest confidence in the 2013 patch?

Who ARE those guys?????

[DJSapp]

Indeed. But my understanding is that the cracking they patched on the spillway at Oroville in 2013 (and 2009) wasn't necessarily indicative of significant failure. Whereas the Folsom spillway upgrade (and near-future dam height raising) is to better engineer it. Folsom Dam was originally built with the understanding that Auburn Dam would be built too. The Bureau has since realized that's never going to happen (psssttt... somebody should tell Congressman McClintock), especially since the State Board revoked their diversion permit for not diligently putting it to beneficial use. So they've since decided to upgrade and armor Folsom against bigger inflows. Crazy important given the size of the watershed, its precipitation characteristics, climate change, and the lack of downstream flood control infrastructure before hitting really important property along the river.

There are no plans to raise Folsom. That would be significantly impractical with 45 miles of shoreline with 9 of those miles as earthen dams, as well as colossally stupid since they built the brand new aux spillway structure the same height as the main dam. The whole reason for the aux spillway is that Folsom can't significantly spill until the water reaches the tainter gates at the very top, and in a significant rain-on-snow event like what just happened in Oroville, the inflows can be significantly higher than the outflows that the American River can handle, right up until the point it overtops the dam. This means they have to keep the lake very, very low during the winter and hope they estimate the spring storms and snowpack correctly to try to store water for the summer. By installing spillway gates much, much lower down, they can safely operate the lake much higher during the fall and winter and guarantee more stored water for summer.

And quite frankly, the last two places in CA left to build a reservoir of significance is Auburn and Temperance Flat. And I like riding Foresthill divide, so screw the Auburn dam.

[LightRanger]

http://www.spk.usace.army.mil/Missio...som-Dam-Raise/
http://bondaccountability.resources....ropositionPK=5

Sites is the only new dam of any significance I see potentially being built in CA:
http://www.water.ca.gov/storage/northdelta/

[bodywhomper]

http://www.spk.usace.army.mil/Missio...som-Dam-Raise/
http://bondaccountability.resources....ropositionPK=5

Sites is the only new dam of any significance I see potentially being built in CA:
http://www.water.ca.gov/storage/northdelta/

Not if all the prop 1 $$ for Sites goes to fixing oroville.

So design-build the oroville bandaid this summer and new spillway design later?

Clearly you all need to listen to McClintock talk and get on the more dams train! He's talking about raising Shasta 200 feet, auburn, sites, temperance flat, and everything else previously proposed or currently proposed by the Feds, state, or locals. Every drop of water that enters the ocean is wasted. Removing all federal environmental red tape that slows it up. Wing nut even mentioned railroading water rights. Home boy has quite a bucket list. Will probably push the dams on the smith and eel. Ha!

[DJSapp]

...except Shasta should be raised 200 feet. There is no environmental reason that Shasta has to dump so much water out during the winter other than to keep from overtopping. Keep in mind the yolo bypass was opened TWICE last year in the middle of the 5 year drought, pushing several hundred thousand cfs out to the bay. Here is a picture from Tuesday 2/28/17 of the confluence of the American and Sacramento Rivers (the thin strips near the engine, with the yolo bypass in the background. At this point in the system, everything is going out to sea.



Yes, everything is running high, but it was also running this high last year because the CVP is not designed to catch rain, it is designed to capture steady snow runoff. That is McClintock's point. If we change the system to be able to capture rain as well as snow, we can serve the people better. This doesn't change the release schedules for the salmon runs.

If we were really serious about catching every drop of water and telling the environment to fuck off, we could just dam the Golden Gate and be done with it all. It's not as crazy or hard as it sounds.

[Dantheman]

If we were really serious about catching every drop of water and telling the environment to fuck off, we could just dam the Golden Gate and be done with it all. It's not as crazy or hard as it sounds.

That would actually work pretty damn well since the delta pumps are already below sea level. Man, that is full scorched-earth though.

[DasBlunt]

...
If we were really serious about catching every drop of water and telling the environment to fuck off, we could just dam the Golden Gate and be done with it all. It's not as crazy or hard as it sounds.

Mount St. Helena in Calistoga is the new bay head? hahahahaha

[LightRanger]

...except Shasta should be raised 200 feet.

...

If we were really serious about catching every drop of water and telling the environment to fuck off, we could just dam the Golden Gate and be done with it all. It's not as crazy or hard as it sounds.

Agree on Shasta. That's one of the more credible ideas out there in terms of actual feasibility from a policy/politics standpoint. On the GG: hahahahah. Engineering might be feasible, but there's no way in hell the legal, regulatory, etc. would ever be. And not just for environmental reasons.

But McClintock's still a fucking blowhard who knows fuckall about this stuff. Auburn, for example, was always a flood control dam for the CVP. The potential capacity for supply was never impressive and after the earthquake at Oroville, it hasn't penciled out for a host of reasons. But to claim we need it forsupply reasons (which I think he did, right BW?) is just totally disingenuous.

Bottom line: Sure, we could engineer more dams, but, other than maybe Sites as an offstream storage facility like San Luis, they just don't make much sense from a cost-benefit analysis. Especially when compared to conjunctive use, recycling, efficiency improvements, and plumbing improvements to move the water we do have when it's available for South of Delta storage. We need to spend a shit ton of money on a lot of water-related infrastructure in CA, but we need to be smart about it.

(State never should've let the Resnicks take over the Kern Water Bank either, but that's a whole other story.)

[bodywhomper]

mcclintock seems to think that environmental releases are a waste. groundwater storage is also a waste simply because it won't generate hydroelectric power. his rhetoric is strong and intentional. maybe carquinez straight would be a more ideal place to him, but there's heavy industry upstream (e.g. refineries).... As a house lawmaker, he definitely sits in a position of power for this stuff. any alteration to federal environmental red tape would likely originate in the subcommittee that he chairs. he claims that the only population of steelhead and salmon necessary to be viable for existence of the spp in CA are found in the waterbodies in the northeast of the state.... he could propose to alter/amend NEPA to redefine "human environment" to something much more narrow than current. his simple solution to issues of too much biomass in federally-administered forestlands (addressingn question about wildfire hazard) is an economic model where the timber harvests pay for themselves. all ideas could make sense with very simplified views made from a high elevation, like from the moon.

mcclintock made all of these claims in front of local water agency senior staff and directors.

i've heard that jay lund has recently updated and expanded his views in writing, but here's his view of shasta dam raise and large state and federal dam projects in general. note the support of local agency projects https://californiawaterblog.com/2012...in-california/

eta: mcclintock wants auburn for additional storage/supply.

[LightRanger]

That's right. I remember that Lund piece when he wrote it. There's an ag econ prof at UOP (can't remember his name right now) that's done some great C-B analyses of various water infrastructure projects (notable the peripheral canal).

Man, fingers crossed that interview goes well next week. It'd be sweet to be doing more of this stuff again.

[Dantheman]

they just don't make much sense from a cost-benefit analysis.

It's been a long time since I read Cadillac Desert, but IIRC very few water projects ever really made economic sense in terms of ROI. They were political capital, giveaways to industry, agribusiness and cities/developers, and at times USBR and USACOE built shit just to prevent the other agency from doing so.

[babybear]

Cadillac desert- excellent book. That one and Emerald Mile I keep thinking back to with this craziness. Recommend both books highly if this dam* stuff interests you





*intended

[LightRanger]

It's been a long time since I read Cadillac Desert, but IIRC very few water projects ever really made economic sense in terms of ROI. They were political capital, giveaways to industry, agribusiness and cities/developers, and at times USBR and USACOE built shit just to prevent the other agency from doing so.

Likewise, that's my recollection too. I mean, the Reclamation Act of 1902 was structured in much the same way the railroads were incentivized (massive land giveaways) and the Homestead Act. Deliberate government giveaways as national policy to encourage settlement of unsettled (by white Europeans) regions. But we're thankfully in a different era now. Saying that as both a part-time water nerd and a California taxpayer that doesn't want to see money wasted.

Which is why I'm still angry about the Westlands-EPA Kesterson Settlement. Welfare farmers, who were behind on their dam payments since essentially the beginning (last several decades at least), get their debt forgiven in exchange for dealing with selenium drainage from THEIR FUCKING LAND.

[Viva]

Cadillac desert- excellent book. That one and Emerald Mile I keep thinking back to with this craziness. Recommend both books highly if this dam* stuff interests you





*intended

Also, A River No More.

[SchralphMacchio]

So .... your saying the 2009 fix didn't work, but the they had the fullest confidence in the 2013 patch?

Who ARE those guys?????

It's unclear to me if those 2009 and 2013 maintenance updates identified or attempted to resolve greater underlying issues with respect to seepage, drainage and rock weathering under the main spillway. And not like simple patches can make compensate for original design aspects that had improper assumptions or factor of safety.

There are lots of interesting theories & analysis (based on public construction records, images, geologic data) in the amateur thread on Metabunk regarding the drain design & construction - and its possible role in the spillway failure. I can't wait to see the full state congressional report on probable root cause, from the folks actually working for the state agencies who have access to actual construction & geological evidence, etc.

[Dantheman]

Which is why I'm still angry about the Westlands-EPA Kesterson Settlement. Welfare farmers, who were behind on their dam payments since essentially the beginning (last several decades at least), get their debt forgiven in exchange for dealing with selenium drainage from THEIR FUCKING LAND.

Westlands members are the absolute epitome of welfare farmers. Growing subsidized crops with subsidized water and subsidized electricity, and without any shame or acknowledgement that they're leeching welfare queens. Christ, even Floyd Dominy eventually admitted it was a mistake to give those people water.

[LightRanger]

Yep. And planting fruit and nut trees, despite having junior water rights on the system. And then suing the shit out of the government when "their" water gets cut back due to drought and enviro regs. Issue easily avoided by growing different stuff.

Oh yeah, and knowingly contaminating their land with selenium by irrigating with groundwater on borrowed time.

And having a sketchy general counsel who was fired from his GC position by the Board for lying in bond disclosure docs, but kept on as GM. (I met him and Jason Peltier once upon a time at a water conference almost a decade ago.)

[SchralphMacchio]

I had lunch with Westland's spokesperson in 2009, at Harris Ranch, of course paid for by Westlands when I did a Central Valley Water Tour event run by the Water Education Foundation. I think Sean Spicer was a dropout from that guy's school of spin. Can't remember his name, but I remember him being so out of touch with reality when he made his statements to our lunch group. I think this was right around the time of the Wanger decision too!

The Central Valley Water Tour is an orientation event typically offered to new legislature analysts, USBR, ACE, SWCB, or DWR hires. I was the only amateur enthusiast in the group (paid out of pocket for it) ... pretty fun tour. We got to visit the main FCS infrastructure on the Kern and San Joaquin, Cross Valley Canal, Kern Water Bank, dinner with farmers, Tulare Lakebed, drained wetlands, west valley exchange contractors, Delta Mendota Pool, farmers switching to salt tolerant crops, also had speakers from the Bay Institute, ecologists ... really insanely fascinating trip.

[Dantheman]

Issue easily avoided by growing different stuff.

Like solar panels?

[LightRanger]

Schralph, I remember those. I think the firm I did a summer with in 2008 paid for associates to go on it.

DTM, yeah. Exactly. Some proposals for utility-scale PVs out thataway. Pretty sure we'll see a lot more of it in the next decade or so. Excellent location from both a sun intensity standpoint and transmission standpoint. In fact, I swear I saw like a combo PV/desalter proposal for that area a few years back.

[ate'em]

The Central Valley Water Tour is an orientation event typically offered to new legislature analysts, USBR, ACE, SWCB, or DWR hires. I was the only amateur enthusiast in the group (paid out of pocket for it) ... pretty fun tour. We got to visit the main FCS infrastructure on the Kern and San Joaquin, Cross Valley Canal, Kern Water Bank, dinner with farmers, Tulare Lakebed, drained wetlands, west valley exchange contractors, Delta Mendota Pool, farmers switching to salt tolerant crops, also had speakers from the Bay Institute, ecologists ... really insanely fascinating trip.

That must have been fascinating, it's not a small system.