Uphill Travel Help

[mtnbikerskierchick]

Yeah you're right! I think there's a couple things that are playing into my troubles. As much as it pains me to admit, I feel it might be who I'm riding with. A lot of the time he doesn't have the drive to achieve and I end up dragging him up the mountain most of the time. Unfortunately I can't find that motivation for him.

As for me I've been inspired by XXX-er. I'm going to really focus on conditioning and train my body to be able to knockout 12,000 foot days with minimal fatigue. That's my game plan for now.

Thanks again for all the help everyone!

Maybe a good time to branch out and find other partners. It's a great way to learn new things, touring with different people....

[wordbird]

None taken! I feel like it's not that much either and that's why I was trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong. I would guess the biggest problem is the terrain. I live in rural Western MT and the majority of the area we ski is steep and thick timber until you get on top. I suspect we are just getting burned out while bushwacking and that keeping us from getting higher. Also, in the specific area around me there is like zero local ski culture so everyone who skis here is from another area (most come up from Missoula) and they more or less keep to themselves. Last weekend was the first time we've seen anybody else in the area where we ski this year so basically all the established skin tracks are our own.

Overall I think it's just going take time for me to get used to skinning. I have no problem dropping 8-10 miles a day with a 50lb pack during archery season but it appears as if this might be my kryptonite lol. Next time I go out I'm going to focus on technique and try to find more efficient routes and we'll see how that goes.

Thank you all for the help! Very much appreciated!

I can help you, I'm from Missoula. 2k' day starting at 9am sounds possible if you're doing absolutely everything wrong in the Bitterroots, but that's the only way I can stretch my imagination without somebody being really slow. Pm me the direction that you're in and some spots you tried to ski and maybe we can get a day in together and I'll even break trail. I moved here in August and can count my touring partners around here on one hand atm.

[auvgeek]

I'm going to really focus on conditioning and train my body to be able to knockout 12,000 foot days with minimal fatigue. That's my game plan for now.

Training for the New Alpinism

[TEXASS]

Doesn't sound like your too slow, sounds like you are starting too late. The only guy I know who starts that late and slays big lines is JimW. Sometimes He doesn't start till 10am.

Really, are you having fun when you tour? That's all that really matters. Im 55 live at sea level and have to drive 5-7 hours each way for splitboarding. I always figure 800 feet per hour for me.
At that snails pace I have summited Shasta from Horse Camp and the east side and some bigger stuff in the sierra.
Just wake up earlier and stay out all day. Its ok to get back to the car at dark or a little after, especially in the dead of winter
You will always be slower on a split but that's fine. If I go to Tahoe instead of the East Side (Eastern Sierra) I know I will get passed by multiple groups. No sweat. I make it to my destination and have just as big a grin on my face as the others when I finish the ride. Maybe they are back at home in front of the fire while Im at top but ......Who Care?
A few years from now when your driving out to those peaks you will be able to point and say " I did that one and that one" but you wont remember how long any of them took you.

Just keep pluggin along You'll get there. But I would try to get on trail by 7 am

[XXX-er]

hey I should point out I am not a fitness freak and I have way more in common with Jeff Lebowski than Kilian Jornet

But possessing some half ass genes to begin with and the will to take things to the next level or somewhere past the next level you never know what you can achieve, really its just putting one foot in front of the other eh


BTW a good training aid is a pack full of full water bottles cuz water is pretty heavy, you never run out of water and at the top dump the water for the down which will be easier on your legs

[garyfromterrace]

XXX-er fucking rocks. 30000 ft up in a day, need I say more.

[XXX-er]

hey buddy hope yer having fun at Burnie!

[Paddymc]

Here’s my “go faster, ski more” rant. But before you read this, ask yourself the really important question - are you having fun with the days in the BC you’re having right now? If so, maybe all the advice I’m about to give isn’t worth your time/effort. Because this is about fun.

That said, I’m of the philosophy that more skiing = more fun. I was once a lot like you are now, I’d get 2000, maybe 3000 vert in a day of touring. And it felt like I worked HARD for that skiing.
Then four years ago, I started rando racing. To be clear, I’m an extremely mediocre rando racer. I have never been/will never be anywhere near a race podium. But rando racing changed the way I ski tour completely. Now my pre-work dawn patrol tour is 5000’ in about 2.5 hours. And 7000’ of touring in a day is no big deal. Long and short of it, I’m skiing way more sweet backcountry snow, with a lot less effort. So, I’m having more fun. Here’s my thoughts on what made that happen for me. YMMV

The following thoughts are organized from “easy” to “hard” take what you want, discard the rest.

“Cheap” speed (no $’s, minimal personal effort)

= Look really hard at what you’re carrying. Cut back on the unnecessary weight. Do you really need goggles in your pack on a bluebird day? What about the layering you’re carrying (see layering section below)? Is your “oh shit kit” more than a lighter, knife, Volie strap and emergency mylar bivy?

= Examine how much water you’re carrying vs how much you’re actually drinking (it may be that you’re carrying way more than you need, or alternately, that you’re getting dehydrated, which will slow you down).

- Set lower angle skin tracks. There’s a reason that when you go to Europe (where even grandma skins 6000’ a day) all of the skin tracks are perfect 14 degree switch back ladders. That’s because they’re set by IFMGA guides who are trained to set them that way, because it’s the most biomechanically efficient angle to skin at. I try to never, ever touch my heel lifters in a day of touring (see note below). Steep trail breaking takes forever (even if it is a shorter total distance), burns the exact same muscle groups as skiing downhill, and is almost always slower in the end.

- On the subject of heel lifters, it’s amazing how much time over the course of a day you can spend futzing with your heel lifters. Let’s say it takes 40 seconds every time you stop to change lifter height. If you do it 20 times in a day, that means that 14 minutes of your touring day was spent changing lifter height. Find an angle of skin track where you can set them once, at the trailhead, and leave them there. Sure, sometimes you’ll be too high (no big deal), and sometimes too low. But the rando-thing has taught me that being too low is very easy to mitigate with good skinning technique. It will feel extra hard at first, but you’ll quickly adapt.

- Work on your transitions. Like, actually practice them, with a stopwatch. Taking off your skis to take off your skins takes way more time than working out an easy, efficient, skis on transition. You might save 3 minutes per transition, 4 if you zip your skins in your jacket instead of taking off your pack (don’t take off your pack!). Same with skins-on. Take them out of your warm jacket (where the glue has gotten nice and sticky) and put them on in a specific order that you’ve practiced. The skins in the jacket trick is a neat one. Having warm glue really helps with putting them on quickly and having them stay on well on a long tour. Having a glue failure will really cut into your touring time. Let’s say that skins on/off practice and zipping them in your jackets saves 5 minutes per set of transitions = 15 minutes on a 3 lap day.

- Layering : Wear less clothes. This was the biggest change I made. Start out cold. If you’re not cold standing beside the car, and on the first 20 minutes of your ski tour, you’re overdressed. Constantly adding and removing layers will eat up insane amounts of time. In general, the less you remove your pack in a day of touring, the better. This less-is-more clothing philosophy has some knock-on effects. You’ll try a bit harder uphill, because you’ll need to keep moving to stay warm. You’ll be warmer on the descents, because you won’t be sweaty (endeavor to never be sweaty). Overdressing early will make you damp, which will make you need to add layers, which will eventually overheat you, so you’ll have to stop and remove them. It’s a vicious cycle. If it takes you 3 minutes per layer change, and you make 5 of them in a day (one at the beginning and an on/off at the top and bottom of every lap on a 3 lap tour), that’s 15 minutes. You probably won’t spend as long sitting around at the top and bottom of the runs, because if you do, you’ll get cold. I did a 5 hour tour yesterday and never took off or added a layer. Just kept moving.

- Glove systems are part of the above. Think about a light liner glove/over glove combo. The over glove should either live on your ski pole handle, or dangling from wrist keepers on the up. Sweaty hands = cold hands. Either way, you want to be able to add/remove heat from your hands without ever stopping or taking your pack off.

- Use the “brain” (top) of your pack strategically. Use it for the things you’ll likely need during the tour - food, mittens (only put in the pack on a cold day tour. Cold hands will make you ski less), beanie (unless it was cold enough to skin with it on). The key is to have these things on top so your partner can get them out for you. Don’t take off your pack! It takes time, and every time you do, it stops being an effective insulation layer on your back. So you expose your sweaty back, get cold, have to add a layer, that you then have to take off, and you’re back to wasting time adding and removing layers.

- Find some “fast” touring partners. Or at least faster than you. I coach nordic skiing, and one thing that’s discussed in the nordic world is “Norwegian Group Strength”. As a team, the Nor’s are fast as hell. A big part of that is that for the last 6 or so years the dominant male and female nordic athletes in the world have been Norwegian (Peter Nortug and Martin Johnsrud Sundby on the men's side, and Marit Bjorgen and Therese Johaug on the women's). What this means for the rest of the Norwegian team, is that they are constantly training “up” to the top of the world standard. Humans are naturally lazy. Very few of us ever overcome our own innate laziness. But if we have a standard to raise ourselves to, we more easily overcome our own lassitude. The other advantage to hooking up with some “fast” locals, is that you may learn little local efficiencies. For instance, maybe there’s a “sneak route” for the skinner on a local tour that saves some time/energy.

- Think about when/where you dig pits. DO NOT compromise safety for speed. But, I see a lot of people digging every time they tour, even when nothing’s changed in the snow pack from the last time they toured. When you dig, dig for a specific reason. This also avoids the heuristic trap of digging to “prove” something safe. Pits tell you a lot about what’s happening in that pit (but maybe not the rest of the slope). They can prove a slope unsafe. They can not prove the opposite. If there’s a known area-wide instability (for instance a hoar-frost layer on top of a crust, covered by 18” of fresh new on N-E aspects), maybe just don’t ski those aspects. Digging to find something you already know is probably there just takes up a lot of your touring time. Keep up with your local avy-forecast, wind and weather every single day. It’s a lot faster to know what sort of instability you’re likely to need to be concerned about before you head out than it is to have to stop to dig around and find it.

- Have a plan A, B, and C for the day before you leave the car. Use the drive to the trailhead to discuss where you’re headed, how you’re going to get there, and under what conditions you’d head for something else. It’s way warmer/quicker to talk about that stuff in the car than it is to stand around in the wind, get cold, and hem and haw. You may save 10 minutes of your ski touring day not having to stand in one place making a decision. Instead you can have a nice talk about something else (maybe your new favorite brew, or a hot guy/gal you saw). Doesn’t matter what, just keep moving while you talk about it. Which is possible if you already know what you’re doing.

- Have a conversation! One of the joys of ski touring is that it’s a partnership (even if sometimes you chose to be your own partner). But more importantly, the ability to talk easily without running out of breath is the easiest hallmark of maintaining an aerobic heart rate. The big key to covering a lot of ground is NOT to move fast, it’s to keep moving at a steady pace. If you go anaerobic for any real length of time, you will compromise your ability to keep moving steadily. You may be faster for a short period, but the accumulated blood lactate will slow your day-long average pace considerably. Pay attention to your partner's end of the conversation. If you’re having a “low gravity” day and cruising, but they’re breathing hard, they’re only going to get slower, and so are you while you wait for them. Drop your pace and increase the “sustained average”. On the flip side of that coin, if you’re the one struggling, suck up your pride and say something.

[Paddymc]

Not Cheap Speed (Buying your way to easier ski touring).

- Have your water easily at hand. Either a Camelbak (very high maintenance in the winter) or a shoulder strap mounted bottle holder. That’s straight rando technology, and you look like a dork, but you’ll stay better hydrated than you’ve ever been before. I don’t have to ever stop to get a drink, I just grab the bottle off my shoulder and take a swig. No need to stop for even 5 seconds. Better yet, combine your hydration and your nutrition. We can only absorb about 200 calories per hour while exercising anyway, so what’s the point of eating a 600 calorie meal sitting in place (maybe getting cold, maybe needing to add/remove layers), when you could just mix some Hammer Fuel or Tailwind, or other 200 cal/hr drink mix into the water you’re already drinking? That’s not to say don’t stop and enjoy where you are (that’s the point of the game after all), but if you save 2 minutes of getting water out of your pack 5 times a tour (or 8-10 times if you’re actually staying well hydrated), and 10 minutes of eating in place, you’re 20 minutes ahead of the game.

- If you regularly do tours that involve bootpacks, get a pack with a rando-race style “hook and loop” ski attachment system. It is SO much quicker and easier than taking off your pack and attaching skis. As a bonus, those sort of packs almost always include a shoulder mount water bottle attachment. I’ve found I even like having my hook and loop for just walking down the road to/from my car. They’re that fast/easy. Save 4 minutes per tour (2 less on and off).

- This dumb/genius jacket:
http://www.skimolife.com/journal/201...sh-anorak.html
My partners made endless fun of me when I first got one (“hey, dude, you lost the back of your jacket”). They all own one now. Not having to take off your pack to add or remove a windproof layer is a total game changer. With a little practice, you don’t even have to stop skinning to take it on and off. I also like it for mountain biking, so it’s multi sport.

- Here’s where this gets serious and I commit TGR forum heresy. Lighter, maybe even (gasp!) narrower, shorter skis. I’m aware that Real Men^tm and Real Women^tm ski the fattest, longest skis they can find. But…. back in the day (think early TGR film era) Doug Coombs was ripping ultra deep Alaskan Powder and the JHAF was absolutely shredding in face-shot land on 80mm underfoot skis. Snow hasn’t magically only become skiable with 110 underfoot. We’ve just gotten used to having big fat skis. Today’s 85-95 underfoot, rockered, carbon skis still ski pretty great, and they’re so much easier to push up the hill. They weigh less, need less skin coverage (even more saved weight) and take less friction force to push forward up the skin track. Slightly shorter skis for touring also make for quicker, easier kick turns. And you can ski them with a lot “less” boot (see below).

- Light, high range of motion boots with a fast/easy mode change were the second biggest game changer for my own touring. I bought race boots (Scarpa Aliens) thinking they’d only be for racing, and they’ve become the only boots I use. At first they feel pretty weird skiing. I was used to the “crutch” of 4 buckle beef boots. It’s amazing how quickly you adapt, because now I ski just as fast in my “no buckle” boots. That is not the solution for everyone. Some (many?) people like to ski way faster and jump off of way taller things than I do. But if you milk the turns you earned, and largely keep your skis on the ground, you may be pushing too much boot up the hill. The biggest advantage to the high range of motion boot (examples of what I’m talking about - TLT 7, Arc Teryx Procline, Scarpa F1) is the gain in stride length. Not only because you get to push your leading foot further forward during a step, but because most of these type of boot have the rando race style toe pivot placement (4-5mm further back than they’re placed in a boot like a Mastrale). This gains you more stride from the rear foot. How much depends on the angle you’re skinning at (more on a lower angle skin track, way less on a steep one). But at that 14 degree “euro ideal” track as much as an inch per step. Maybe 4” when combined with the cuff rotation. 4” per step x 10,000 steps (which is conservative, but works out to about 5 miles of total distance traveled) = 3300’ feet of “free” distance you’ve gained for literally no extra effort. At that 14 degree skin angle that’s 380’ of extra vert. Throwing 1 lever to tighten the entire boot and go into ski mode saves a lot of time over tightening 3 or 4 buckles. Figure it saves 2 minutes per transition. During our theoretical 3 lap tour, that’s 12 minutes.

- Straight cut, fast gliding mohair skins, with a bungee tip ski attachment system (and no tail). They’re not only a lot lighter, but they glide WAY WAY faster. They may necessitate taking a dremmel to your ski tips. Which is kind of scary. And liberating. You give up some maximum skin track angle, which can pretty much be mitigated with good skinning technique (back straight, driving down through your heels). High cuff motion range boots greatly aid this. With proper maintenance they’re just as reliable as skins with tail clips (and straight sides make them less prone to collecting snow on the edges of the skin). Most importantly the bungee tip allows a much faster skins off transition (add 1 minute per transition of time savings).

So here’s the rough time savings math on the above for our theoretical 3 lap tour --
Not messing with heel lifters - 14 minutes
Fast, practiced transitions - 15 minutes
Not adding/removing layers - 15 minutes
Pre planning your tour - 10 minutes
Efficient water/Food - 20 minutes
Rando Race Style ski attachment - 4 minutes
Not buckling / unbuckling 4 buckles - 12 minutes
Tip Strip Skins - 3 minutes

Total = 93 minutes saved + 380' of free vert from efficient skinning boots
At the low, casual, pace of 1000’ of skinning per hour that’s over 1800’ of extra vert you just traveled without actually doing the hard work of getting any fitter.

[Paddymc]

Expensive Speed (the stuff $ can’t buy)

Find an appropriate training plan. Check out Uphill Athlete or Skintrack.com for some ideas. Know that it will hurt at first. Do it even when you don’t want to. Rest (even when you don’t want to).

Cut back on the pizza, burgers and (in desperation only) the beer. This is where I draw the line. I like good food. Some things just aren't worth the extra speed. But I do stay aware that V02 Max and Anaerobic Threshold are very affected by total body mass. Basically the more of you your heart has to pump blood too, and the more mass the muscles have to use exchanged oxygen to push, the lower your heart rate will be when you can’t maintain that easy, conversational pace any more.

Do a randonee race. They’re way more fun than they look.

Buy some lycra. Rock it without shame or remorse. If you look fast, you are fast. :-) It’s the most “expensive” thing on this list because of the shit you’ll take for it. However it’s not an accident that the fittest skiers on the plant (nordic and rando) are all sporting the stretchy one piece.

Have Fun!!!!!!

[LightRanger]

^^^ That's some of the best advice I've seen given here. And clearly took a while to write. Nice work.

Some stuff in there that I hadn't thought of. Appreciate the thoughts.

[mall walker]

^^^ That's some of the best advice I've seen given here. And clearly took a while to write. Nice work.

Some stuff in there that I hadn't thought of. Appreciate the thoughts.

ditto 100%, nice post(s)

[Paddymc]

^^^ That's some of the best advice I've seen given here. And clearly took a while to write. Nice work.

Some stuff in there that I hadn't thought of. Appreciate the thoughts.

You're welcome - the above is the product both of my own experience and of a very long ongoing debate/argument/conversation with one of my favorite touring partners. He was the first person to really preach "light is right"to me back in my pre-race 4 buckle boot era. His tele setup seemed light at the time. Then I went "full lycra" as he says (never go full lycra...). Now I give him grief that he should really drop that whole "heavy" tele thing and come to the dark side of the force.

[LightRanger]

Heh. Yeah, I switched from tele after a serious injury a few years ago. I miss making tele turns at the resort sometimes. Only thing I miss in the backcountry is the ability to really get a solid kick-and-glide going on flat/rolling approaches and exits.

[Skirotica]

My last tour, thanks to Strava, showed 6.5m and 4200 vertical. was 6 hr 20min total day according to my watch.

[SILENCER]

Awesome yeah that's kinda the vibe I'm getting. For sure! I finally got the split this year after three years of snowshoes and packing my board. Absolutely love it! Plus it's a swallowtail! aka pow slayer!

This. There are certain advantages to skis, but there's a hammer here in CO who did all the 14'ers on a splitboard...so don't let that deter you.

- A skier

[adrenalated]

there's a hammer here in CO who did all the 14'ers on a splitboard

Two of 'em that I'm aware of.

Both hardbooters.

[Fritz]

ditto 100%, nice post(s)

x3. Very well-articulated. Damn near sticky worthy imo as we can collectively get way nerdier than this. I wish there was a dedicated thread on this when I was succumbing to this cult.

[LeeLau]

Paddymc - very nice.

Especially for preaching low angle skintracks

[galibier_numero_un]

^^ + 1,000

... Thom

[shakyknees]

I would not recommend straight cut skins. Nor do I think it makes sense (in the west) to save weight by reducing the width of your ride.

Prioritize fun, move at a pace you can maintain all day, discard your watch and altimeter, keep focused on the higher further peak.

[mall walker]

I've been using straight cut skins the past 2 seasons with zero issues fwiw but I don't end up on really icy skinners either (UT) so ymmv

[Paddymc]

I would not recommend straight cut skins. Nor do I think it makes sense (in the west) to save weight by reducing the width of your ride.

Prioritize fun

That's cool, it's a suggestion not a religion.
Straight cut skins work very well for me, and 90ish underfoot skis peg my fun meter, but that won't be the case for everyone. The takeaway is exactly what you said - prioritize fun. Whether that means pushing big fat skis, or it means going light and fast and seeing how big you can go, do what's fun for you.

After all, we're all getting to slide on snow, which makes us luckier than 98% of the rest of humanity.

[Fritz]

If you have any tip or tail rocker or even just early rise then straight cut should be fine imo. That way you can straight cut a heavier, climbing-oriented skin if that what you're into.

[gimpy]

paddymc - have u practiced holding your bladder for entire tours cuz stopping to pee is time wasted? how much time to do allow for conversing? does touring with stoners stopping to burn at the top of every line just make you twitch?




just fucking w ya man - some great stuff in there