Official KSL Bitch AND Bitch about people bitching about KSL thread

[californiagrown]

How does increasing your unmanned avalanche mitigation ability equal longer times to open terrain?

Typically, when a private development increases traffic demand, they are responsible for improving the infrastructure that suffers from decreased LOS. Why isn't KSL footing damn near the whole bill for any and all roadway improvments/ traffic mitigation?

[kidwoo]

Northstar built a village and did it without creating the gridlock that has happened on 89. T

Dafuq?
267 has been every bit the cluster that 89 has been.

Minus people buried in avalanches of course. But that road locks up both ways between the "mountain" and 80 with just as much ferocity.

I despise both operations with equal fervor because of this.

[old goat]

Skiing at Big Sky this week--I was in two patrol shacks--one low on the mountain to buy some t shirts, the other on top of Lone Peak checking out for Big Couloir. Both times were on snow safety days (they've been getting huge winds, esp yesterday and have had to do snow safety even when there's no new snow). Both patrol shacks had 7 or 8 patrollers--all the people they brought in to run avy routes in the morning, far more than they need once everything is open, but still getting paid for a day's work. Now check out a patrol shack at Squaw or Alpine on a snow safety day--often there will be no one there at all.

OTOH Andy does make some valid points about efforts Squaw is making--too late--to manage some of the problems. Unfortunately, he makes it clear he expects CA and Placer County to improve mass transit with no mention of a significant financial commitment from KSL towards mass transit. This should have been required as mitigation for the traffic problems the village will cause. Instead Placer County would let them build their village, not require anything of them and let the locals and the tourists deal with the mess while the county happily spends the increased tax dollars in the rest of the county and continues to ignore us. So fuck KSL and Placer County. Maybe the lawsuits will help but my guess is that if KSL had to spend significant money on mass transit the development wouldn't pencil out; they would sell and dump the mess on someone else.

[TahoeJ]

Dafuq?
267 has been every bit the cluster that 89 has been.

Minus people buried in avalanches of course. But that road locks up both ways between the "mountain" and 80 with just as much ferocity.

I despise both operations with equal fervor because of this.

I know you're busy shredding the fiberboard freeway from TC and all, but... no way. At least not from the Truckee side. I have both passes and it's not even close. Not going to pretend 267 has been great but it's been a breeze compared to 89. I have u-turned on 89 and gone back to west river and straight to Gnarstar more than once this season.

[heckacali]

With regards to patrollers being in their "shacks" at squalpine: most shacks on the mountain are not occupied on an average day. The Patrollers are required to be at the top of their respective complex, so some are vacant if they are not the top that day . If summit is open, roundhouse will be empty as they are up in summit, or out doing other work on the hill. Same goes for Scott if Lakeview is open.

[hercule33]

I love the picture from the 50's of the traffic on Olympic Valley Road. Yeah, let's see a picture from back then of 89 backed up all the way onto highway 80 (or was it old 40 then?) at 8am. Eat a dick, Andy.

Hercule33 - the bus at Northstar from the Castle lots isn't ideal... which is why in their just approved updated master plan they're going to install a gondola to the village. And I assume with that they will actually expand the parking down there since there's space. It's worth noting that KSL's proposal just sort of refers to the possibility of off-site parking but has nothing specific in the plans whatsoever.

I agree that buses aren't ideal but at least Northstar thought of the parking situation when they built the new village and sold cheap passes. It's not like Northstar is filling up its parking on a Tuesday at 10:30.

I used to hate the buses and walking through the village but after the parking situation at Squaw this season I have to give Vail props for coming up with a solution (if not a optimal one) instead of sending emails with excuses. And it looks like they have a plan to make parking better that doesn't involve melting snow.

[FriendsofSV]

Old Timer posted this today on his Facebook page today.

My 10 reasons for joining the demonstration at Squaw this Saturday.
1. Placer County = failed democracy with respect to how it has overridden the will of Tahoe people. Protests are the next logical step.
2. Squaw is censoring free speech and has taken away passes from people who expressed their opinions.
3. Shirley Canyon - 21 mansions do not belong at its mouth.
4. Squaw spent $800,000 to crush local people when they tried to form a town in order to have some decision making rights about the future of their lands.
5. A waterpark does not belong in the Sierra.
6. John Muir would be appalled to know his name was used to promote this massive development.
7. Approval of both Squaw and Martis West projects is frankly dangerous for the people of Tahoe and tourists alike.
8. Tahoe people deserve much better treatment from large land owners.
9. The Squaw development will further deteriorate the quality of life for people within the greater North Tahoe region. Traffic is just one aspect. Shifting Tahoe values is another.
10. The story is not even close to being over and every action taken by local residents counts.

[heckacali]

11. We all look good in purple!

[TahoeJ]

Another hilarious response to a Wirth Letter from Andrew Pridgen as he translates the letter into poetic form: http://deathofthepressbox.com/2017/0...son-and-truth/

[kidwoo]

I know you're busy shredding the fiberboard freeway from TC and all, but... no way. At least not from the Truckee side. I have both passes and it's not even close. Not going to pretend 267 has been great but it's been a breeze compared to 89. I have u-turned on 89 and gone back to west river and straight to Gnarstar more than once this season.

Huh. Cuz I've turned around on 267 and driven on 89 instead about 12 times this season. I drive one of those roads, every single day, coming and going. Stopped is stopped. Neither is worse than the other if they're both not moving. And 267 has had that issue just as often as 89 this year. 89 has had a lot of other issues that aren't just traffic caused but the idea that northstar hasn't fucked up the other artery from the lake to 80 just isn't true. I don't know what it is this year but skier visits at northstar have frequently been greater than that of squaw in the past. They've both achieved colossal heights of suck for trying to pack in that many people from two lane roads that serve as the only egress from north lake.

[TahoeJ]

I guess it just depends on the day. I think it's safe to say they both sold too many cheap passes.

[kidwoo]

I guess it just depends on the day. I think it's safe to say they both sold too many cheap passes.

What's also been fun is the impact each of those roads has had on the other. One closes and it all goes to the other one. There's really only one solution and placer county needs to step up.

[Steven S. Dallas]

^Already sold one to Brockway, just extend the line.

[old goat]

The ideal solution would be a county of north tahoe, encompassing TC, KB, and Truckee. Forming a new county is possible under CA law but almost impossible, since the other voters of Nevada and Placer counties would have to agree, and the east slope communities are a big cash cow for the west slope.

Traffic has sucked since long before cheap passes although it is worse now. But expensive passes appeal only to people who can afford them and limiting passes is going to piss off people who miss out, some of whom will be people on this forum who consider themselves long time, entitled SV or AM skiers. Everyone should have a reasonable chance to ski--whether rich or poor, local or tourist. Better we should figure out how to accommodate the people than to try to restrict the numbers.

[hercule33]

Huh. Cuz I've turned around on 267 and driven on 89 instead about 12 times this season. I drive one of those roads, every single day, coming and going. Stopped is stopped. Neither is worse than the other if they're both not moving. And 267 has had that issue just as often as 89 this year. 89 has had a lot of other issues that aren't just traffic caused but the idea that northstar hasn't fucked up the other artery from the lake to 80 just isn't true. I don't know what it is this year but skier visits at northstar have frequently been greater than that of squaw in the past. They've both achieved colossal heights of suck for trying to pack in that many people from two lane roads that serve as the only egress from north lake.

No doubt that Northstar's village has had an effect on traffic on 267 but I haven't seen it be as bad as Squaw 89 this year. Everyday I skied Northstar for the last couple of years (even during Christmas week) the traffic was never horrible, although at times it was bad. I never had to wait over an hour from 80.

I do agree with the idea that if you are going to build a village or do anything that will greatly increase traffic as a company you should foot some of the bill for the new roads/public transportation. It sucks that over the last 15 years Northstar has grown into a big resort and Squaw/Alpine have lowered their pass prices clogging up the two big arteries from the lake to I-80.

[4matic]

I do agree with the idea that if you are going to build a village or do anything that will greatly increase traffic as a company you should foot some of the bill for the new roads/public transportation.

Property and use taxes pay a lot of bills.

[hercule33]

Property and use taxes pay a lot of bills.

Those helps with building a village but how does it help with lowering season pass prices? Should they raise taxes on food/drink/rentals/lessons/lodging to generate more revenue for roads? Variable toll roads to encourage carpooling?

[Steven S. Dallas]

I do agree with the idea that if you are going to build a village or do anything that will greatly increase traffic as a company you should foot some of the bill for the new roads/public transportation.

It's pretty common for local government to require some parking/traffic mitigation in exchange for the right to do new development- a requirement that the developer put in more parking, widen roads, put in turn lanes, pay some special tax that is earmarked for public transportation, whatever. No idea what's being discussed in connection with any Squaw development but obviously the county is in a good bargaining position should they choose to use it since it's not like they can up and move the resort.

[hercule33]

KSL shot themselves in the foot this year. They are going to have to explain a whole bunch of traffic/parking mitigation strategies before the village can get approved or they will have to pay off Placer Country big time. Shockingly, it looks like their original assessment for the village was a bit off (no one saw that here ) and this season they have not exactly won the support of their passholders.

[TahoeJ]

The village was already approved, but yeah, if they have to go through the process again after a new EIR this year will hurt their cause and give plenty of ammo to opponents. Although, Placer County BoS clearly doesn't give a fuck about anything but money.

[kidwoo]

Traffic has sucked since long before cheap passes although it is worse now. But expensive passes appeal only to people who can afford them and limiting passes is going to piss off people who miss out, some of whom will be people on this forum who consider themselves long time, entitled SV or AM skiers. Everyone should have a reasonable chance to ski--whether rich or poor, local or tourist. Better we should figure out how to accommodate the people than to try to restrict the numbers.

Couple things.

Yes there's always been traffic and heavy periods (heh) but be honest, this year has been different just in the sheer magnitude and frequency. The weather can exaggerate it but this place sits at max capacity way more frequently now. I've seen the numbers from placer county in reference to taxing air bnb and vrbo occupancies (friend of mine works there). It really is different now.

To your second point, yeah the $1200 squaw pass was a little exclusive. But so are 150 dollar friggin lift tickets. Limit passes in some way but make it accessible to buy day tickets. Worked great in the past. There's even a thread here from the living legend akpm who probably won't be spending a dime at these places because of that insane ticket price. When you keep out akpm, you keep out life.

[old goat]

Couple things.

Yes there's always been traffic and heavy periods (heh) but be honest, this year has been different just in the sheer magnitude and frequency. The weather can exaggerate it but this place sits at max capacity way more frequently now. I've seen the numbers from placer county in reference to taxing air bnb and vrbo occupancies (friend of mine works there). It really is different now.

To your second point, yeah the $1200 squaw pass was a little exclusive. But so are 150 dollar friggin lift tickets. Limit passes in some way but make it accessible to buy day tickets. Worked great in the past. There's even a thread here from the living legend akpm who probably won't be spending a dime at these places because of that insane ticket price. When you keep out akpm, you keep out life.

If you make the tickets cheaper and the passes dearer you're still going to have the same number of people skiing on a weekend. And if you don't it's because you've made skiing less accessible. Most people who complain about cheap passes want skiing to be less accessible, so that they, who can afford expensive passes, can have the mountain more to themselves. There are too issues with too many people--traffic and parking, which is soluble by mass transit, and crowding on the hill, which is soluble by getting lifts running and the people spread out. I'm not holding my breath for either one, but I think this is what we should be pushing for, not restricting skiing to the well off.

[mmmm...pow!]

Property and use taxes pay a lot of bills.

In Roseville and Auburn.

[heckacali]

I have a friend visiting who has to be at Alpine Meadows tomorrow (sunday), does anyone have any beta on how bad the traffic and parking are this weekend with the WC at squaw?
Is it the normal "89 is a parking lot and the mountain parking lots filled at 9AM, have to go at 7am or you are fubar"
Or did people wise up and stay away? (I'm Dreaming)

She has to be there at 10. So an early start will suck, but a late start will likely suck more.

I am not going near it this weekend myself.

[TurxSki]

You shoulda posted in Tahoe thread.
Not nearly as busy as you might have thought.
I do not think AM lots were full today (but don't know for sure).
Just factor in a normal Sunday.
ONE THING: remember clocks change tonight, so some will forget & be coming in late.