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  1. #26
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    So, poking around on the UnofficialAlpine site, it looks like there were actual instances of passes being pulled for FB posts, and one of the pullees is contemplating a lawsuit (scroll down: http://unofficialalpine.com/?p=12334). While that's an interesting approach (not sure $899 is worth litigating...), Squaw's going to get in some trouble when it tries to justify pulling a pass for disparaging remarks. The pass waiver agreement specifies that management can pull a pass for any reason (cleverly skirting the California law that prohibits non-disparagement clauses in consumer contracts - http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/13-14/..._chaptered.pdf), but it wouldn't take much to show that the actual practice is evidence of an unlawful contract. Put a couple revoked passholders together (woohoo class action!) and that's a really bad PR lawsuit.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeJ View Post
    ?? Are you referring to SAC? No complaints from me - they do a fantastic job.
    No, talking about Wasatch thread/UAC. SFB likes to use it as his cranky bastard mouthpiece throughout the season.
    mountainous regions are wonderlands

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by snoqpass View Post
    PM Trump, he might be able to remove federal regulatory oversight of avalanche control programs
    In the first place, they weren't opening Silverado, except I think for a day perhaps, prior to the accident.
    In the second place, even Squaw isn't claiming that it's been closed because of the need for avalanche control. Read the blog.
    They cite the need to build the road and to set up ropes and signs. They've had nine days since the last storm to do that. Those of us who have skied there for a long time know that it takes about half a day to do that--frequently Silvy has been open on the first bluebird day after a dump.
    What does federal regulatory oversight of avalanche control programs have to do with Silvy not being open all winter?

    Re: passes being pulled--as I read the Unofficial Alpine post there were two people who claimed to have had their passes pulled but neither person described the actual events that led to the passes being pulled. AFAIC that comes under the category of rumor until more information is available. (Obviously if someone really is planning to sue they should keep their mouth shut in public.)
    Last edited by old goat; 02-01-2017 at 06:46 PM.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    I think we can count on KSL using Joe Zuiches death as an excuse for every manner of operational problem or delay for the rest of this season and perhaps beyond, which is shameful.
    That would be beyond shameful. Downright Trump level lack of empathy. Some conspiracy bullshit. Why jump right to that conclusion? Please don't push this theory.

    I refuse to believe that they would use the tragic death of one of their employees as an "EXCUSE". That would involve many levels of management. I have more faith in humanity than that.


    Is this conversation seriously going on in your head?

    KSL1: "We need to save all that powder off Silverado for the Bay-Area folks this weekend. We can't let those scheming locals track it all up. Think of the money we'll lose!"
    KSL2: "Yeah, but you know the locals will be pissed."
    KSL1: "That is when we throw down the fallen patroller card! They HAVE to understand our decisions if we blame it on the tragic death of our employee. They have no choice but to accept it as we ream our mismanagement cock down the locals throats!"
    KSL2: "Fucking genius. Glad We already sold our souls to Satan...we'll be burning in Hell for this one too!"

    KSL2: "Oh! But what about our parking situation?"
    KSL1: "Fallen patroller card."
    KSL2: "Duh! Hmm...waterslides?"
    KSL1: "Must be built in memoriam...fallen patroller card."
    KSL2: "My dick is super tiny?"
    KSL1: "Fallen patroller card. You can't be blamed for that!"

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnarbro365 View Post
    That would be beyond shameful. Downright Trump level lack of empathy. Some conspiracy bullshit. Why jump right to that conclusion? Please don't push this theory.
    Theory? To some extent this has already happened.

    As far as Silverado goes, I saw and heard them doing control work there all afternoon on Saturday, January 14th. Many days of sunshine after that with no opening. The cat track excuse is ridiculous. I've seen them put that thing in with way less snow to work with. They've had plenty of fucking time. This is amateur hour.

  6. #31
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    Silverado... a little over 2 weeks ago. https://www.instagram.com/p/BPVrXXNA...n-by=errolkerr

    If you look really hard you can see the snow cat in the background struggling to put in that access road. Oh wait, no you can't.

  7. #32
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    I'm literally amazed at how many mountain operation experts we have on TGR....
    The K-12 dude. You make a gnarly run like that and girls will get sterile just looking at you - Charles De Mar

  8. #33
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    Not operations experts, just skiers and riders who have seen both mountains functioning in a way better manner in prior seasons. There's a big difference between maybe needing a day or two to get Silvy open and needing a few weeks - and who knows how much longer? The Oregon Trail excuse is also bullshit. Besides not needing several weeks to cut the trail, a snowcat can just as easily access the bottom terminal using Landbridge. And at this point, KSL is way past getting the benefit of the doubt.
    I really lack the words to compliment myself today. - Alberto Tomba

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheK12 View Post
    I'm literally amazed at how many mountain operation experts we have on TGR....
    You really don't think that KSL could do a better job at Mountain Ops, especially like others have pointed out that it never took that long to open Silverado? You don't have to be an expert at Mountain Ops to spot incompetence just like you don't have to be an Olympic skier to spot a gaper.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheK12 View Post
    I'm literally amazed at how many mountain operation experts we have on TGR....
    I'm literally amazed at how many apologists there are. You know this isn't our first season at Squaw right? We have some sense of how long it takes to open terrain. Despite all of the snow there have been like 9 straight days of clear weather... after the 6 days between storm cycles mid month. Gimme a break.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeJ View Post
    I'm literally amazed at how many apologists there are. You know this isn't our first season at Squaw right? We have some sense of how long it takes to open terrain. Despite all of the snow there have been like 9 straight days of clear weather... after the 6 days between storm cycles mid month. Gimme a break.
    Not an apologist. I have a pass just like you and I too have been skiing Squaw for at least 15 years now. And although I agree that "terrain used to open much quicker", I also know that I have no fucking clue about what's going on at Squaw and why they're having issues opening up terrain. Maybe it's incompetence, maybe it's the cutting cost "conspiracy" that you seem to think is for sure going on. I'm just not going to make leaps like they're using a patroller's death to explain away operational issues or that there is some bean counter plot to not open terrain in order to cut costs without any actual proof or first hand knowledge by somebody working at the mountain. Seems to me that promoting unsubstantiated rumors like these are almost as bad as Squaw actually doing these things.
    The K-12 dude. You make a gnarly run like that and girls will get sterile just looking at you - Charles De Mar

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnarbro365 View Post
    That would be beyond shameful. Downright Trump level lack of empathy. Some conspiracy bullshit. Why jump right to that conclusion? Please don't push this theory.

    I refuse to believe that they would use the tragic death of one of their employees as an "EXCUSE". That would involve many levels of management. I have more faith in humanity than that.


    Is this conversation seriously going on in your head?

    KSL1: "We need to save all that powder off Silverado for the Bay-Area folks this weekend. We can't let those scheming locals track it all up. Think of the money we'll lose!"
    KSL2: "Yeah, but you know the locals will be pissed."
    KSL1: "That is when we throw down the fallen patroller card! They HAVE to understand our decisions if we blame it on the tragic death of our employee. They have no choice but to accept it as we ream our mismanagement cock down the locals throats!"
    KSL2: "Fucking genius. Glad We already sold our souls to Satan...we'll be burning in Hell for this one too!"

    KSL2: "Oh! But what about our parking situation?"
    KSL1: "Fallen patroller card."
    KSL2: "Duh! Hmm...waterslides?"
    KSL1: "Must be built in memoriam...fallen patroller card."
    KSL2: "My dick is super tiny?"
    KSL1: "Fallen patroller card. You can't be blamed for that!"
    As TahoeJ said--they're already doing it. Time will tell if they keep doing it: "Lots of questions on Silverado, but there is not much to share, unfortunately due to the ongoing investigation from last week. Our patrol team and mountain operations teams are working to get back into their normal routine after the loss of our dear friend, Joe Zuiches. We ask that you are patient with our teams as we get back to normalcy." If that's not using his death as an excuse for poor/cheap operations I don't know what is.
    Last edited by old goat; 02-02-2017 at 10:06 AM.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by hercule33 View Post
    You really don't think that KSL could do a better job at Mountain Ops, especially like others have pointed out that it never took that long to open Silverado? You don't have to be an expert at Mountain Ops to spot incompetence just like you don't have to be an Olympic skier to spot a gaper.
    Maybe so but since I've never done Mountain Ops, regardless of how many years I've "observed things opening sooner", I can't actually claim that it's incompetence.

    I'm not apologizing for Squaw. Yes, I would love if things opened up sooner and that parking wasn't such a fucking mess. And yes, I'm not thrilled about the downward trend in operations. But I'm also not going to make claims about things that I have no clue about. Just because I want it to be true, doesn't actually make it so.
    The K-12 dude. You make a gnarly run like that and girls will get sterile just looking at you - Charles De Mar

  14. #39
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    KSL cutting costs from a subsidiary they plan to sell is not some far out conspiracy. it would be weird if they weren't...

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheK12 View Post
    Maybe so but since I've never done Mountain Ops, regardless of how many years I've "observed things opening sooner", I can't actually claim that it's incompetence.

    I'm not apologizing for Squaw. Yes, I would love if things opened up sooner and that parking wasn't such a fucking mess. And yes, I'm not thrilled about the downward trend in operations. But I'm also not going to make claims about things that I have no clue about. Just because I want it to be true, doesn't actually make it so.
    You're right--we don't know the motives. Could be incompetence. Could be cost cutting. (I'm for cost cutting--unlike Alex Cushing KSL has lots of investors it needs to pay off. Pretty standard when someone buys something with a lot of other people's money and the other people want their money back--management starts cost cutting, which degrades the product, which leads to worse returns which leads to them selling to some even dumber private equity firm--maybe Bain Capital?) In any case I don't care about the motive--just the results.

    BTW if you're pissed off about the parking now what do you think it's going to be like when the parking lot is full of condos?

  16. #41
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    I think it comes down to KSL needing to be more upfront with its audience. The people who ski Silverado (and not just the cat track) are probably a little more aware of mountain history than your average FB fan page visitor, and won't fall for the cat track explanation.

    KSL could really have said "We're a business, and we make operational decisions that balance many factors. Opening Silverado requires a substantial amount of resources for terrain that, while appealing to advanced skiers, is of limited interest to the crowds that we have seen this year, particularly over busy weekends. We had KT22 and Headwall operating with minimal lift lines on Saturday/Sunday, the busiest days of the year, and saw fit to direct our resources to ensuring Shirley Canyon, Gold Coast, Big Blue, the Funitel, and Squaw One were operating smoothly."

    Cushing pushed Squaw as a skiing adventure. KSL is pushing it as a destination. More money to be had in the latter. Mostly I feel for the long-time Squaw employees who have to be conflicted about working for KSL, given how much things have changed.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmmm...pow! View Post
    Not operations experts, just skiers and riders who have seen both mountains functioning in a way better manner in prior seasons. There's a big difference between maybe needing a day or two to get Silvy open and needing a few weeks - and who knows how much longer? The Oregon Trail excuse is also bullshit. Besides not needing several weeks to cut the trail, a snowcat can just as easily access the bottom terminal using Landbridge. And at this point, KSL is way past getting the benefit of the doubt.
    How would you get to landbridge?

    To answer the question above, no silvy is not a priority. The mountain is considered 100% open even with it closed

    I suspect operations have gotten significantly worse in the 10 years I've been gone but I wonder how much of this is internet/social media driven? I heard these same complaints every year back when Alex was alive just without this megaphone

    Didn't realize Jimmy King is still mountain manager. You guys think you're screwed now, wait till he retires. When I was there he was typically the one putting in that cattrack
    Last edited by SD16; 02-02-2017 at 10:57 AM.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    As TahoeJ said--they're already doing it. Time will tell if they keep doing it: "Lots of questions on Silverado, but there is not much to share, unfortunately due to the ongoing investigation from last week. Our patrol team and mountain operations teams are working to get back into their normal routine after the loss of our dear friend, Joe Zuiches. We ask that you are patient with our teams as we get back to normalcy." If that's not using his death as an excuse for poor/cheap operations I don't know what is.
    Maybe excuse isn't the right word?

    Seems legitimate to give patrol a bit to recoup and rethink their ops plan. Eh? Think you'd be gung-ho to get your hands on some explosives a few days after your buddy was blown up?


    Now, if they start using that excuse for parking, then you're on to something.

  19. #44
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    I think people are forgetting to see the big picture. This really isn't a debate as to who is an expert is a mountain operations expert or a debate about dissecting the excuses KSL gives for not opening terrain. The main point is that KSL is really pissing of their customers .

    They are pissing of their customers because terrain isn't being opened it a timely manner, the terrain openings aren't being effectively communicated, the parking/traffic situation sucks and when their customers complain on their facebook page, Squaw told them "go ski another mountain."

    If that is the customer service that you are looking for from a ski hill then you have nothing to complain about. On the other hand if you don't like that a large part of the best inbound expert ski terrain in Tahoe is being managed in this fashion, you have a right to hold KSL responsible and take appropriate actions such as voicing your opinion and taking your money elsewhere.

    Like it or not, the customer is always right. So if we are pissed, we are right. If you are happy, then you are right. What will be interesting to see is the number of pissed vs happy customers that KSL has at the end of the season.

    End of rant.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    You're right--we don't know the motives. Could be incompetence. Could be cost cutting. (I'm for cost cutting--unlike Alex Cushing KSL has lots of investors it needs to pay off. Pretty standard when someone buys something with a lot of other people's money and the other people want their money back--management starts cost cutting, which degrades the product, which leads to worse returns which leads to them selling to some even dumber private equity firm--maybe Bain Capital?) In any case I don't care about the motive--just the results.

    BTW if you're pissed off about the parking now what do you think it's going to be like when the parking lot is full of condos?
    Just because I'm not jumping on board with the operations theories abound in this thread doesn't mean I don't oppose the condos. I'm definitely not a fan of KSL but I'm just not one to make claims that I can't actually prove, especially as it relates to a subject matter I don't know anything about.

    Now as far as parking is concerned. As long as it snows consistently and passes are cheap, it will continue to be a CF. That's simple supply and demand. Squaw is a highly desirable place to ski, they do a fantastic job marketing to the masses in the Bay and Sacto, and so when it snows, everybody and their mother wants to ski there. Better management may make it a bit smoother process for people to get in and out BUT the basic problem of too many people, not enough spots will still be there. Hell, other resorts that are not managed by KSL are having the same issues -have you seen the lineup to Northstar or Sugar Bowl on a Saturday post snow. I've never seen anything like it and it's unfortunately a fact of life until the next drought, the next downturn in the economy, or the significant raising of pass prices.
    The K-12 dude. You make a gnarly run like that and girls will get sterile just looking at you - Charles De Mar

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnarbro365 View Post
    Maybe excuse isn't the right word?

    Seems legitimate to give patrol a bit to recoup and rethink their ops plan. Eh? Think you'd be gung-ho to get your hands on some explosives a few days after your buddy was blown up?


    Now, if they start using that excuse for parking, then you're on to something.
    They didn't get silvy open long before that incident happened. Did you ever consider that some of us know people who work there in various departments that are also pissed off and we aren't just making assumptions?

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD16 View Post
    How would you get to landbridge?
    Wouldn't you get to it from the track to Tower 16, which has been open repeatedly for weeks? BTW is Oregon Trail a new thing since KSL came, or has Squaw always got to the bottom of Silvy from the bottom of Solitude and KSL just turned it into a (shitty) run. I've certainly seen landbridge with no track on it when Silvy was open. Landbridge does seem like an easier route but I'm happy to admit I have no clue.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by hercule33 View Post
    I think people are forgetting to see the big picture. This really isn't a debate as to who is an expert is a mountain operations expert or a debate about dissecting the excuses KSL gives for not opening terrain. The main point is that KSL is really pissing of their customers .

    They are pissing of their customers because terrain isn't being opened it a timely manner, the terrain openings aren't being effectively communicated, the parking/traffic situation sucks and when their customers complain on their facebook page, Squaw told them "go ski another mountain."

    If that is the customer service that you are looking for from a ski hill then you have nothing to complain about. On the other hand if you don't like that a large part of the best inbound expert ski terrain in Tahoe is being managed in this fashion, you have a right to hold KSL responsible and take appropriate actions such as voicing your opinion and taking your money elsewhere.

    Like it or not, the customer is always right. So if we are pissed, we are right. If you are happy, then you are right. What will be interesting to see is the number of pissed vs happy customers that KSL has at the end of the season.

    End of rant.
    I agree that the customer is entitled to feel like they are getting their money's worth. Definitely on board with that and definitely on board with holding Squaw and KSL accountable for the customer experience. And even further, I do agree that if customers are unhappy, they have a right to ask for and get real information about what's going on and voicing their unhappiness about the customer experience. But what I don't agree with is spreading rumors of why this or why that without any real proof. It is possible to say, "what's going, why is this happening, i'm not happy, what the fuck are you guys doing". But it's yet another thing to take an accusatory stance and say , "i know that you're doing this and you're lying, even though i can't prove it". The latter approach just breeds more hate and contention and makes people defensive.

    Guess it's just a different perspective.
    The K-12 dude. You make a gnarly run like that and girls will get sterile just looking at you - Charles De Mar

  24. #49
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    Another bone to pick with KSL is that they're short term management looking to sell development rights and get out of the Squaw ownership business. Silverado aside, this makes for unpleasantness that is generally acceptable to KSL, since they don't care about the long-term reputation.

    A long term owner would look at the current weekend parking situation and do what Northstar did - put huge lots at the mouth of Squaw Valley Road (or better yet TC and Truckee) and run resort-funded shuttle buses. KSL sees no short term return on this, and instead promotes condos as a solution to traffic, knowing full well that there's a substantial local customer base that will still (want to) drive in.

    I hate to say it, but I'm almost at the point where being bought by Vail wouldn't be a bad (worse?) thing.

  25. #50
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    Vail certainly couldn't make things any worse. Both on the mountain and in the village.

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