Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD aka Hawk Extended aka HawX

[nickel]

yep, go to your local atomic dealership and pick up a new set.

in all seriousness, i can't envision a scenario where that can be done.

[swissiphic]

Is there an el-cheapo/safe way to reverse shell memory fit mold via home oven? Picked up some used xtd 130s that have been heated and molded, I want to bring the volume back down to the original state.

Ask the Q over at:

https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...-my-boots-quot

[Andeh]

Apologies if this has been discussed in the 20+ pages (still working my way through them), but how does the moldable shell work for extremely difficult feet? I have totally collapsed arches, which makes my midfoot as wide as the forefoot. I have a 27cm foot that measures about 102mm at the forefoot but stays 100mm all the way back to the ankle. Every ski boot I've ever skied is tremendously painful when buckled up to be stiff enough to ski, and I've not been able to get enough midfoot width through normal punching. Boots I've tried that are too narrow midfoot: TLT6 (duh), Maestrale RS (2015?), Vulcan. The Vulcans have been the best, but if I do 1 run down a hardpacked, my midfoot hurts so badly I need to open all the buckles for a good 10 minutes to recover. I've not been skiing much the last 2 years due to a new baby, but next year he should be old enough that I can park him in ski school while we ski. I'm looking for a 120ish boot that I can use for both touring and sidecountry.

It looks like my best bet are the Hawx 120s or maybe the new MTN Labs, which supposedly also have a moldable shell.

[LeeLau]

Apologies if this has been discussed in the 20+ pages (still working my way through them), but how does the moldable shell work for extremely difficult feet? I have totally collapsed arches, which makes my midfoot as wide as the forefoot. I have a 27cm foot that measures about 102mm at the forefoot but stays 100mm all the way back to the ankle. Every ski boot I've ever skied is tremendously painful when buckled up to be stiff enough to ski, and I've not been able to get enough midfoot width through normal punching. Boots I've tried that are too narrow midfoot: TLT6 (duh), Maestrale RS (2015?), Vulcan. The Vulcans have been the best, but if I do 1 run down a hardpacked, my midfoot hurts so badly I need to open all the buckles for a good 10 minutes to recover. I've not been skiing much the last 2 years due to a new baby, but next year he should be old enough that I can park him in ski school while we ski. I'm looking for a 120ish boot that I can use for both touring and sidecountry.

It looks like my best bet are the Hawx 120s or maybe the new MTN Labs, which supposedly also have a moldable shell.

In one of my posts and my review I specifically call out the shell molds approximately 5mm. Foot-specific boot-fitting questions I will leave to experts (mtnlion- greg, xavier etc)

[XXX-er]

the vulcan liners are really bad, i can't use them either, but replace that piece of shit with an intuition liner & a Sole foot bed and its all good

[PNW_Skier206]

Yeah custom footbed and intuition liners have done wonders to all of my boots


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[Andeh]

the vulcan liners are really bad, i can't use them either, but replace that piece of shit with an intuition liner & a Sole foot bed and its all good

If this is in response to me, Vulcan liners went straight into the trash can where they belong. I've skied them both with really packed out ProTours (less pain but freezing cold and slid around noticeably in the shell) and Dreamliners (warmer but painful). I have a custom footbed but think I it was a waste of money. I've generally found that fancy insoles (with plastic support) feel good for me standing around, but when subjected to repeated foot strikes (running, mountain biking) my feet hurt like a bitch. With the Vulcans/Dreamliners after a long descent, it feels like I've crammed the middle of my foot into a V-shaped notch.

[blackalps]

If anyone has a pair in 120 or 130 and 28.5 let me know. Looking for some to buy.

[gregL]

. . . but how does the moldable shell work for extremely difficult feet? I have totally collapsed arches, which makes my midfoot as wide as the forefoot. I have a 27cm foot that measures about 102mm at the forefoot but stays 100mm all the way back to the ankle.

The heat moldable shells on the Hawx Ultra XTD and S/Lab MTN work well for standard width increases, i.e. 4-6mm in the forefoot and somewhat less well for medial midfoot issues, but heat molding doesn't magically turn a boot with 2 liters of volume into one with 3 liters of volume, and has its limits for increasing width.

I had to punch the Hawx XTD in several spots after the heat mold to get it to fit my foot, including the midfoot (mine also goes out instead of in) and for fifth and first metatarsal issues. I suspect you'll also need a bootfitter to address those areas after baking either the Hawx XTD or the S/Lab MTN.

[margotron]

If anyone has a pair in 120 or 130 and 28.5 let me know. Looking for some to buy.

Same boat. 2nd in line

[Andeh]

The heat moldable shells on the Hawx Ultra XTD and S/Lab MTN work well for standard width increases, i.e. 4-6mm in the forefoot and somewhat less well for medial midfoot issues, but heat molding doesn't magically turn a boot with 2 liters of volume into one with 3 liters of volume, and has its limits for increasing width.

I had to punch the Hawx XTD in several spots after the heat mold to get it to fit my foot, including the midfoot (mine also goes out instead of in) and for fifth and first metatarsal issues. I suspect you'll also need a bootfitter to address those areas after baking either the Hawx XTD or the S/Lab MTN.

Thanks, that's very useful to know. There's no way to treat the initial shell heat mold like you would a liner mold, sticking on pads to either your foot or the liner? I would think that would work, but might require firmer shim pads since the shell would be more resistant to deforming.

Unfortunately, there's no real bootfitters that I trust nearby (Bay area). I've had poor experience with all the ones immediately local, so was hoping this might be a system simple enough that the basic shell heat mold, at, say, REI could handle. I can probably figure something out to work with a fitter in Tahoe, but it would be a real pain.

[swissiphic]

Apologies if this has been discussed in the 20+ pages (still working my way through them), but how does the moldable shell work for extremely difficult feet? I have totally collapsed arches, which makes my midfoot as wide as the forefoot. I have a 27cm foot that measures about 102mm at the forefoot but stays 100mm all the way back to the ankle. Every ski boot I've ever skied is tremendously painful when buckled up to be stiff enough to ski, and I've not been able to get enough midfoot width through normal punching. Boots I've tried that are too narrow midfoot: TLT6 (duh), Maestrale RS (2015?), Vulcan. The Vulcans have been the best, but if I do 1 run down a hardpacked, my midfoot hurts so badly I need to open all the buckles for a good 10 minutes to recover. I've not been skiing much the last 2 years due to a new baby, but next year he should be old enough that I can park him in ski school while we ski. I'm looking for a 120ish boot that I can use for both touring and sidecountry.

It looks like my best bet are the Hawx 120s or maybe the new MTN Labs, which supposedly also have a moldable shell.

Similar foot issues and pretty much have never had an honest to goodness proper fit in any of my previous dozen or so pairs of ski boots over the past 40 years. Achieved nirvana with my latest boots, Dynafit Vulcan 2.0's. They've been through multiple lateral midfoot to baby toe punches at the shop to add width. Got close but not perfect. Did a closer examination of my feet resting on my skiing footbeds vs bare feet on the floor. With the extreme pronation of the flat feet contacting the supportive portion of the arch area of footbed, the soft tissue would bulge out medially adding quite a few mm's of width in the arch/midfoot area. It stood to reason, this extra volume required compensation.


Boots were then were subjected to further medial shell stretching in the basement at the mercy of my heat gun, padding, duct tape and ziplock bags full of snow and many more mm's of width were added in crucial areas.

It's been a complete game changer. My skiing feel and balance has level changed in a positive direction due to the first truly pain/cramp free turns and that indescribable bliss where all the contours of the foot and flexed muscles and tendons find their home in the molded recesses of the liner that is matched with the new shape of the shell. The most dramatic before and after difference was actually not in the downhill skiing but felt during skinning and bootpacking. I didn't realize before but my balance was always just a little off during every stride or footfall. I kinda noticed an issue this fall after some hiking boots on approaches to ski terrain then, skinning or bootpacking for the rest of the day. Just felt more teeter/tottery at a micro level on skis, if that makes sense. After all the boot mods, I feel like i'm in my well fitting/broken in leather hiking boots...natural weight distribution and balance on the feet. I suspect for d/h skiing the micro balance issues were mitigated somewhat by the dynamic nature of movement, rather than the distinct placement of individual weight bearing steps during flatlanding or uphilling.

Here's a copy of a recent post regarding my shell customization efforts over at: 'the answer to "wtf is wrong with my boots"' thread:

Did some extreme home boot shell stretching/reshaping to my Vulcans.

Used a hot air gun, laser thermometer to closely monitor shell temp and a bag of snow in a ziplock bag to rapidly cool and set the punches. Shielded buckles, rivets, sole rubber and tech toe inserts with alu foil. Seemed to work awesomely...had to do a few retweaks and the real time/quick cool and test allowed for seamless, efficient, timely remolding.

One of my goals was to reform the lateral rear upper cuff forward projecting wings that wrap the lower leg for a more anatomical fit to my skinny/low volume tib/calve area. I inquired about molding the actual carbon cuff but was told no beuno by salewa so i focused on reshaping the more trad plastic wings themselves. The reshaping went very well and resulted in a precise anatomical mold that mirrors my legs shape quite precisely. There may be a slight compromise due to more resistance to for and aft ROM while in tour mode, but, it'll be a price worth paying with the better d/h power transmission/fit tension.

I also added about 8mm of lateral width along the medial shell from the mid arch to the metatarsal heads. I was getting some minor to major general foot cramping and doing a/b comparo skiing with some older blown out mercuries, discovered the issue was likely due to lack of volume for lateral arch meat spread and just a hair too little metatarsal spread in forefoot. I might wanna blow out the big toe area to allow for full toe spread...further ski testing will give intel whether this will be required or not.

For reshaping the arch area, i simply heated the shell and inserted foot into liner, flexed a bit and watched the plastic bulge...let it expand for a few minutes, then hit the area with the ziplock snow bag to set the shape. For the medial forefoot/meta head/big toe area, i added about 6mm worth of folded automotive gasket making cork to the liner to force the shell to expand. Seemed to be very effective as well.

Twas a fun project.

Attachment 268573
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Attachment 268577

[taoslcl]

Anyone compare the 120s with the Head Kore 1. Was hoping Kores would be my answer to the do it all boot but too soft and too roomy to be pushed. Looking at the XTD or just giving up the dream and going back to resort boots for resort days.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Andeh]

Similar foot issues and pretty much have never had an honest to goodness proper fit in any of my previous dozen or so pairs of ski boots over the past 40 years. Achieved nirvana with my latest boots, Dynafit Vulcan 2.0's. They've been through multiple lateral midfoot to baby toe punches at the shop to add width. Got close but not perfect. Did a closer examination of my feet resting on my skiing footbeds vs bare feet on the floor. With the extreme pronation of the flat feet contacting the supportive portion of the arch area of footbed, the soft tissue would bulge out medially adding quite a few mm's of width in the arch/midfoot area. It stood to reason, this extra volume required compensation.


Boots were then were subjected to further medial shell stretching in the basement at the mercy of my heat gun, padding, duct tape and ziplock bags full of snow and many more mm's of width were added in crucial areas.

It's been a complete game changer. My skiing feel and balance has level changed in a positive direction due to the first truly pain/cramp free turns and that indescribable bliss where all the contours of the foot and flexed muscles and tendons find their home in the molded recesses of the liner that is matched with the new shape of the shell. The most dramatic before and after difference was actually not in the downhill skiing but felt during skinning and bootpacking. I didn't realize before but my balance was always just a little off during every stride or footfall. I kinda noticed an issue this fall after some hiking boots on approaches to ski terrain then, skinning or bootpacking for the rest of the day. Just felt more teeter/tottery at a micro level on skis, if that makes sense. After all the boot mods, I feel like i'm in my well fitting/broken in leather hiking boots...natural weight distribution and balance on the feet. I suspect for d/h skiing the micro balance issues were mitigated somewhat by the dynamic nature of movement, rather than the distinct placement of individual weight bearing steps during flatlanding or uphilling.

Here's a copy of a recent post regarding my shell customization efforts over at: 'the answer to "wtf is wrong with my boots"' thread:

Did some extreme home boot shell stretching/reshaping to my Vulcans.

Used a hot air gun, laser thermometer to closely monitor shell temp and a bag of snow in a ziplock bag to rapidly cool and set the punches. Shielded buckles, rivets, sole rubber and tech toe inserts with alu foil. Seemed to work awesomely...had to do a few retweaks and the real time/quick cool and test allowed for seamless, efficient, timely remolding.

One of my goals was to reform the lateral rear upper cuff forward projecting wings that wrap the lower leg for a more anatomical fit to my skinny/low volume tib/calve area. I inquired about molding the actual carbon cuff but was told no beuno by salewa so i focused on reshaping the more trad plastic wings themselves. The reshaping went very well and resulted in a precise anatomical mold that mirrors my legs shape quite precisely. There may be a slight compromise due to more resistance to for and aft ROM while in tour mode, but, it'll be a price worth paying with the better d/h power transmission/fit tension.

I also added about 8mm of lateral width along the medial shell from the mid arch to the metatarsal heads. I was getting some minor to major general foot cramping and doing a/b comparo skiing with some older blown out mercuries, discovered the issue was likely due to lack of volume for lateral arch meat spread and just a hair too little metatarsal spread in forefoot. I might wanna blow out the big toe area to allow for full toe spread...further ski testing will give intel whether this will be required or not.

For reshaping the arch area, i simply heated the shell and inserted foot into liner, flexed a bit and watched the plastic bulge...let it expand for a few minutes, then hit the area with the ziplock snow bag to set the shape. For the medial forefoot/meta head/big toe area, i added about 6mm worth of folded automotive gasket making cork to the liner to force the shell to expand. Seemed to be very effective as well.

Twas a fun project.

Attachment 268573
Attachment 268574
Attachment 268575
Attachment 268576
Attachment 268577

Thanks, I guess it's worth the price of a heat gun and laser thermometer before I try yet another pair of boots. What's on the side of your liner on the last photo? What temp did you get the shell to before you cooled it? What did you consider cold enough to do another go?

[gregL]

There's no way to treat the initial shell heat mold like you would a liner mold, sticking on pads to either your foot or the liner? I would think that would work, but might require firmer shim pads since the shell would be more resistant to deforming.

Yes, we do that as a matter of course, applying self-adhesive bootfitting foam at pressure points before putting on your sock and heat molding. Thicker/denser foam = more pressure, but there is still a limit to what can be done.

[swissiphic]

Thanks, I guess it's worth the price of a heat gun and laser thermometer before I try yet another pair of boots. What's on the side of your liner on the last photo? What temp did you get the shell to before you cooled it? What did you consider cold enough to do another go?

Hi Andeh:

What's on the side of your liner on the last photo?

The material is automotive gasket making cork. Cut to the right dimensions then folded accordian style to the desired thickness then taped to the liner. Thing is, i purposely molded my high volume intuition luxury liners really hot/long so they would compress wafer thin in areas requiring max width but still fill the volume to provide snug fit/fit tension in areas need that effect (instep, ankles, heel pocket) Was just a hunch but worked good. So, in effect, the foam in the lateral areas/toebox of my liners is really thin, so adding firm padding there was effective in pushing out the shell for more width. I would suspect if liner foam is thicker in those areas, it would simply compress and not effectively push out the shell, if that makes sense? The lateral shell stretches were real deal bootfitting punches using a press over the course of multiple punches...don't think I could have gotten near the total width required just using the home brew technique employed with the aforementioned process.

Side note; love affair with intuition liners continues unabated...this is probably the six or 7th exposure to heat after previous molds, remolds and rerereremolds and they still work just fine...better in fact than when new cause the foam has lost a bit of volume so the remaining foam is denser and feels more 'high performance' while still keeping my feet supported and relatively warm...i say relatively cause they don't insulate as well as when new but still adequately...i guess it's a bit of a performance/vs/insulating trade off in this particular case.

What temp did you get the shell to before you cooled it?

First step: employed a very scientific method of fingertip feel, lol...hot enough on the inside of the shell to feel like fingers were gonna burn, pushed on the plastic, noticed it was pliable to finger pressure, then measured temp...range was about 240-260F ish. I applied heat in a two stage process...blast the boot with heat, then remove heat, let the heat penetrate for maybe 20 seconds, then blast it again to bring it up to the right numbers. I'm not a pro boot fitter so no clue if this is 'correct' for the grilamid used in the vulcan but seemed to work 'just right'. I think I read in other threads that different plastics/thickness can use different heat temps for optimal punching..maybe GregL or mntlion can comment on this?

And while I'm thinkin' about it: droppin' props to GregL and mntlion for awesome bootfitting tips over the years here at TGR...really don't think I could have gotten to game changing boot fit status without the knowledge acquired here over the years.

What did you consider cold enough to do another go?

Basically kept the snow pack on the plastic till it was close to room temp..but still retained a hair of heat from the previous process. I think it took a few minutes to cool the plastic. One issue was the snow melted quite a bit...so, i ended up having a bunch of backup size large ziplock bags stuffed with snow outside the front door on standby, ready for quick action re/re.

[galibier_numero_un]

I'm gonna make a call on either next year's Backlands or Hawx (possibly, but unlikely an F1 or Z-G Pro).

Are people in general running the same shell size in the Hawx & Backland?

The Backland seems hard to find around these parts this time of year, especially in a 25.5 or a 26.

Hopefully, I can hunt down some of them to at least do a shell fit.

The reason for this is that I'm mounting a Spring ski next month and I'd like to anticipate the new BSL. Yeah, I know a Backland and F1 have shorter BSLs than the Hawx, but if I at least know what shells I fit, I'll be able to close down the BSL range to better anticipate my mount.

... Thom



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[gregL]

Are people in general running the same shell size in the Hawx & Backland?

I wear a 26.5 in both current boots, but consider them different categories. For spring and summer skiing, it's definitely the Backland Carbon.

I would wear a 26.5 in the 2020 Hawx Ultra XTD, but might have to size up in next year's Backland Carbon. The pre-production Backland Carbon I tried on was both short and tight (though still 288mm BSL), and the Boa didn't seem to open quite wide enough for my instep, but they are making a number of changes in the production version, including the Boa. Atomic told me the last is pretty much the same and even a touch longer; the tightness has to do with denser foam in the liner, but I'll need to try them again after doing a Memory Fit heat mold. The production boots aren't in this country yet AFAIK, so you'll have trouble trying them on before fall. I'll try to update when I figure it out, in the meantime maybe Onenerdykid has more insight.

[galibier_numero_un]

I wear a 26.5 in both current boots, but consider them different categories. For spring and summer skiing, it's definitely the Backland Carbon.

I would wear a 26.5 in the 2020 Hawx Ultra XTD, but might have to size up in next year's Backland Carbon. The pre-production Backland Carbon I tried on was both short and tight (though still 288mm BSL), and the Boa didn't seem to open quite wide enough for my instep, but they are making a number of changes in the production version, including the Boa. Atomic told me the last is pretty much the same and even a touch longer; the tightness has to do with denser foam in the liner, but I'll need to try them again after doing a Memory Fit heat mold. The production boots aren't in this country yet AFAIK, so you'll have trouble trying them on before fall. I'll try to update when I figure it out, in the meantime maybe Onenerdykid has more insight.

Thanks Greg, in retrospect, there are so many variables involved in trying to predict the size & BSL, that I'll probably mount to the midpoint BSL between a Backland (26/288) and F1 (26.5/297). It's a Spring ski, and it will eventually see one of these two.

I just came back from trying on a current year Hawx 25.5 and it was tight even for me (1/2 finger), so I'm no doubt looking at a 26. A tight finger is fine, but a half is pushing it.

There's only so much you can predict before you outsmart yourself ;-)

... Thom

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[I've seen black diamonds!]

As an owner of Hawx XTD's and F1's, I'd say they aren't remotely in the same category. Touring in F1's is much, much more efficient. For me they ski a bit better than the old orange Maestrales. The Hawx XTD's ski almost as a well as an alpine boot. They tour about as well as the old orange Maestrales.

I'm a 26.5 in both. You're welcome to try either if there is a way to make it work. Both boots fit snugger than the Maestrale and need more work to get a good fit. Still need to go back for more punches on the XTD's. Think I'm going to add a ratchet strap/instep buckle to the F1's too.

[Lindahl]

I own both Backlands and XTDs. As mentioned, they’re both very different from each other. The Backland is much better going up, the XTD is much better going down. How’d you settle on these two boots?

[galibier_numero_un]

As an owner of Hawx XTD's and F1's, I'd say they aren't remotely in the same category. Touring in F1's is much, much more efficient. For me they ski a bit better than the old orange Maestrales. The Hawx XTD's ski almost as a well as an alpine boot. They tour about as well as the old orange Maestrales.

I'm a 26.5 in both. You're welcome to try either if there is a way to make it work. Both boots fit snugger than the Maestrale and need more work to get a good fit. Still need to go back for more punches on the XTD's. Think I'm going to add a ratchet strap/instep buckle to the F1's too.

Thanks! I'll definitely take you up on your offer. You're also welcome to try my XT 130 Freetours if you can cram your foot and liners into a 25.5. It's a touch longer than the Hawx 25/25.5 shell. They match up with my 182 GPOs, 182 CD 114s and 186 Goats.

The F1 has floated back into contention. It's silly to not consider it along with the Backland. Since I can easily drive my GPOs with my Maestrales, this category fills the most immediate need - meadow skipping in the Winter, and Spring lines with lighter skis.

I love the snug part (F1s, Backlands) which is the main driver - that I swim in the ankle pocket/heels of my Mango Maestrales.

Yeah, I don't look forward to lugging my XT 130 Freetours around, but it's not as if we frequently get to ski big lines in the Winter with our Colorado snowpack.

... Thom

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[Mofro261]

Everything is a compromise. Ive been in the 25.5 hawx130 xtd the last 20 days, mostly skiing inbounds with a whole lot of fresh. 5 tours including a big 7.5+ on Tuesday. My other boots are rs140's and tlt6's. The hawx is an adequate addition, not replacement, for those boots. Hardest lower shell for me to get my foot in, skis great on the down but less ROM for sure than the tlt6 on the up, another 400 or so grams but still really light. Has worked well clicking into look px binders and driving 100mm legend pros, and feels more even/stable on my 120's.

But yeah by the forth lap I was consciously using a different stride on the up because of the ROM. Ive had tlt5's and 6's for a good 6-7years so maybe I'm spoiled so I have to go back further and say the hawx130 a great upgrade to the Dyanfit Titans I had, but for a late spring boot there are better options.

[auvgeek]

The F1 has floated back into contention. It's silly to not consider it along with the Backland. Since I can easily drive my GPOs with my Maestrales, this category fills the most immediate need - meadow skipping in the Winter, and Spring lines with lighter skis.

I love the snug part (F1s, Backlands) which is the main driver - that I swim in the ankle pocket/heels of my Mango Maestrales.

Fischer Carbon Travers? Why isn't the ZG Tour Pro in contention? Fit?

Really wish Scarpa would update the F1 with their new tech. Something like 115 flex and 1050g and a low volume heel could be a category killer.

[zion zig zag]

Really wish Scarpa would update the F1 with their new tech. Something like 115 flex and 1050g and a low volume heel could be a category killer.

Man, I'd be all over that.