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  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by kid-kapow View Post
    there is an awesome thread on newschoolers concerning the XTD lineup, where Matt/onenerdykid - one of Atomic's boot designers - chime in regularly. The folks over at Blister also have a couple of reviews of both the 120 and the 130 that explains the difference pretty well and Cy - one of the Blister guys - has also chimed in in the newschoolers-thread.

    The general consensus is that 120 is more of a resort quiver killer with a beefier liner (think plastic incorporated into the tongue to provide more support/comfort when the going gets tough, aka more resistance when walking), with the 130 being more of a 50/50 boot that tours incredibly well for the punch it also packs. Lee's wet sock comparison for the 130 liner seems a bit harsh, though time will tell if it is on the money or not. I guess there is nothing new in the aforementioned info - it has all been asked and answered multiple times in this thread already - but oh well.

    I have yet to try the boots, but will get some 130s and get a beefier liner down the line for resort days if the need is there.
    That was going to be my question... lliner quiver instead of boot quiver?
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  2. #252
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    Tried on the 26.5 XTD 120. For my low volume ankle/heel/calf, I was really impressed with the fit in the back half of the boot. Great heel hold and secure feeling around the ankle. Better than the stock liner heel hold for the Lange Freetour XT LV. Front half feels fine except it would need a big toe punch for me.

    Room temp flex of the XTD 120 feels softer to me compared to my Lange XT 130 Freetour LVs, particularly in the initial part of forward flex. The XTD 120 seems stiff enough for a 150 lb skier like me though.

    The crappy digital scale at home shows the XTD to be about 300gm lighter at around 1600gm, compared to the Freetour XT with stock liner plus booster strap. The ROM and the low resistance/friction while moving through the ROM in the XTD is significantly better than the Freetour XT. And the walk mode on the XTD has less play rearward when locked in ski mode compared to the Freetour XT

  3. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by DGamms View Post
    Tried on the 26.5 XTD 120. For my low volume ankle/heel/calf, I was really impressed with the fit in the back half of the boot. Great heel hold and secure feeling around the ankle...
    This is pretty much where I am coming from on these as well. I'm super narrow and low volume - especially over the instep which has always led to me clopping around in touring boots and never getting a great skiing fit. For several years I've been in 27.5 Mercuries with the thickest intuition luxury liner and a ton of bontex shims up front. Touring in these boots has been decent, skiing has been OK. Certainly good for when they came out, but the thicker liner leads to a vague feel. I often end up having to buckle tighter and tighter, leading to an compromise between responsiveness and foot pain. Once I wised up and downsized my alpine boots (26.5 KR Pro ID with a massive toe punch) and learned what a great fit skis like I come to appreciate skiing the Mercuries a lot less.

    So enter the 26.5 XTD 130. The fit is just super snug all around, especially in the heel/instep where I have always had issues. I've only got one day of skiing (touring) on them but so far they seem to ski really, really, well. With the thinner liner, radically closer shell fit, slop-free walk mode and all around stiff and sturdy design. All of gregL's masterful bootfitting expertise has been needed to blow these things out in an attempt to get them comfortable for walking in all day. I'll have to get another day of skiing in them but I'm cautiously optimistic. Here are some observations:

    -OMG these are some much harder to get on than a cabrio style boot like the Mercury, which is all I've had for years. These are crazy tight around the instep.
    -While they are a little lighter than my mercuries, overall touring performance feels somewhat less. While the cuff has no friction, the lower shell provides some resistance. The Mercury has a pretty free range of motion without the tongue and the ankle strap always held my heel tight while touring. Still, I don't think this is a deal breaker for me.
    -The plastic is harder to punch that other boots, and the toe area is very sloping and low volume. If these were 1/2 size bigger it wouldn't be an issue, but right now I'm 50/50 on if I can comfortably tour these things all day for many days in a row. I'm going to try grinding the boot board to get more vertical room just in the toe area.
    -I don't miss the tongue swapping for the Mercuries, although screwing around with 4 buckles and a power strap can be a little messy. The walk mode is at least easy to use, and I can leave the front two buckles closed all the time.
    -They really do seem to ski awesome and are so lightweight. I don't have to over-buckle it at all and it is still so responsive.
    -This is a weird boot: as light as dedicated touring boots but skis, fits and to some degree functions sort of like an awesome crossover boot.
    Last edited by Dromond; 11-22-2017 at 11:53 PM.

  4. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by kid-kapow View Post
    Lee's wet sock comparison for the 130 liner seems a bit harsh, though time will tell if it is on the money or not. I guess there is nothing new in the aforementioned info - it has all been asked and answered multiple times in this thread already - but oh well.
    Def harsh for sure but i've said it before and will say it again - I am totally 100% an Intuition liner whore and completely biased. Matt Manser did say that the 130 liner I tried in the proto is different then the 130 production- a tad more beefy.

  5. #255
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    Me too and why would that ^^ be ... cuz Intuition are just fucking better,

    why should the end loser be paying close to a G for a ski boot shell and a wet sock?

    if Scarpa can spec real intuition liners and real tech fittings I don't see why everyone else can't afford to ?
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    real tech fittings
    Many boots are coming with legit Dynafit tech fittings now, including the Atomic stuff.

  7. #257
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    Scarpa having intuitions is definitely a huge plus. I'm not sure I would call the Hawk 130 liner a wet sock, and I've seen/used far worse. The problem I've noticed is that the liner is thin enough that pressure points (namely my heel) compress the liner until it's paper-thin and not providing a ton of support/cushion in that area. That said, the boot is so tight that I couldn't fit much more liner in there. Has anyone done a close comparison between this liner and the low volume Pro Tour?

  8. #258
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    Real toe fitting are great, that means all we gotta do is keep bitching till they are all spec'ing the best liners

    A wet sock is a wet sock and its even better when a tester with the ear of the public sez so ... stay harsh bro
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  9. #259
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    The liner in the XTD 120 is no wet sock. Nicer than my last pair of Intuition ProTongues

  10. #260
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    i dunno Lee. I have always found your reviews to be insightful and nuanced, and i def appreciate the time and effort. Your two posts over the last days calling the 130 liners a wet sock and the Proclines a pos design that will break is just at odds with the aforementioned adjectives. Then again, there might be a mighty procline and hawx 130 liner plague going on where they are buckling right, left and center that just hasn't reached the news yet

    If it is harsh or not is kind of besides the point - the question is more how do you convey a message so that the message itself becomes the focus and not the way it is conveyed (i am throwing mt everest around here in the tiniest of glass houses just so you know). My point is that if i after reading your description then go on to use the 130s - something that i will - and find that hey, jubilations, these do indeed have more support than a wet sock, how then should i relate to the rest of the review? To your next reviews? Is it my understanding of what constitutes Wet Sock Support (TM) that is not up to scruff? I dunno - time will tell.

    So no xxx-er, i must respectfully disagree. If being harsh is perceived as being harsh just to be harsh, that could end up in just speaking to a diminishing choir (see what i did there ), rather than being perceived as calling it as it is. So brutally honest, yes please, harsh - i'd rather go with nuanced.

    And at the end of the day, if most of the paying public is happy with provided liners, and those who are not still buy the boots and upgrade to Intuitions, i have a hard time understanding the downside as seen by Atomic. If they want to build their own liners and feel they can provide a competitive product where they also control all design/manufacturing factors (and probably get the liners at a lower cost by keeping it in house) as well as can continue to design and improve their liners, why would they listen to the few? The only scenario where such a switch makes sense is if the introduction of Intuition liners into their boots would disrupt the entire market (something i have a hard time seeing happening). That does not mean that those of us would like them to change their erring ways cannot say so, but then again, the idea then is to do it in a manner that A) makes them perceptive to the feedback and B) doesn't undermine your own credibility while doing it.

    anyway, sorry for droning on and on, and thanks again for your valuable feedback and honest reviewing Lee. Luckily i am getting some Intuitions for my Proclines, so at least my feet will be nice and toasty while the damned things falls apart on me Perhaps i should get some for my hawx as well

    (and btw - i really appreciate the feedback on the stock procline liner being cold - i would hate to learn that the hard way, way out in the middle of nowhere with $#&%"#$% cold feet, so thanks for that. Now somebody else just have to design an equally good walking boot that is less prone to falling apart - aka a unicorn in the touring business)

  11. #261
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    kld-kapow: you said you have yet to actually try the boot correct? Have you had them in your hands at all?

    I have actually tried on the boot and the stock 130 liner is VERY, VERY thin. The Palau foam isn't horrible, better than the foam in a lot of stock liners, but there's not much of it. It's even thinner than the stock Palau liners in a TLT6P. Is that bad? Well, if you're looking for support from the liner, or looking for the liner to take up space in certain parts of the boot, then probably yes. If you're looking for light weight, or the shell fits you very well out of the box, maybe not.

    I haven't skied the boot yet (still waiting for my pair to come in) but I can tell you that I probably will never ski the stock liner - partly because I happen to have a brand new pair of Intuition Pro Tours laying around already, and partly because I can tell just from looking at it and trying the boot on that the stock liner will not give me the fit I want. It's not unreasonable to think that a different liner will ski better as well given how thin the stock liner is.

    FWIW I like Intuition liners but don't think they are the end-all-be-all. I think they're a good choice for touring boots because they are warm, fit pretty well, and ski pretty well, but they pack out faster than I'd like. I'm currently running a Boot Doctors custom foam liner in my alpine boots and frankly it is more powerful, longer lasting, and better fitting than any Intuition. It's heavy as fuck and sucks for walking though.

  12. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by kid-kapow View Post
    i

    So no xxx-er, i must respectfully disagree. If being harsh is perceived as being harsh just to be harsh, that could end up in just speaking to a diminishing choir (see what i did there ), rather than being perceived as calling it as it is. So brutally honest, yes please, harsh - i'd rather go with nuanced.

    And at the end of the day, if most of the paying public is happy with provided liners, and those who are not still buy the boots and upgrade to Intuitions, i have a hard time understanding the downside as seen by Atomic. If they want to build their own liners and feel they can provide a competitive product where they also control all design/manufacturing factors (and probably get the liners at a lower cost by keeping it in house) as well as can continue to design and improve their liners, why would they listen to the few? The only scenario where such a switch makes sense is if the introduction of Intuition liners into their boots would disrupt the entire market (something i have a hard time seeing happening). That does not mean that those of us would like them to change their erring ways cannot say so, but then again, the idea then is to do it in a manner that A) makes them perceptive to the feedback and B) doesn't undermine your own credibility while doing it.

    Luckily i am getting some Intuitions for my Proclines,


    Scarpa / Roxa /Dalbello/ Fulltilt all go with the best liners and charge the same kind of money as the rest of the boot makers who put shit liners in the boots they sell us which sit on a shelf in the garage cuz its cheaper or the bean counters havent got a clue or both while Intuition is making a lot of money selling us aftermarket liners which you also admit to buying so what the fcuk are you droning on about?

    note that I am being harsh here because you sound like you are full of shit
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  13. #263
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    Kld - I am going have to disagree with your disagreement.

    I for one am sick of those - I wanna keep the gear provider happy so I will pretend his shit don't stink - reviews.

    You know the ones:
    "these skis were challenged on groomers, in crud, boot top powder, but they really came into their own in steep overhead blower powder conditions." So they work when absolutely any skis including a pair of 1x4s would also work - great.

    Nah, even given Lee's obvious Intuition hard-on, I would still rather that he say they felt like wet socks, if that is what he felt. I may take a look at them a bit more carefully as a result. I may not agree, and I may after doing my own inspection buy them any way - because as X'er said - fit is everything. But at least I will be forewarned.

    Otherwise that media310 guy seems to have his reviews dialed.

  14. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by kid-kapow View Post
    i dunno Lee. I have always found your reviews to be insightful and nuanced, and i def appreciate the time and effort. Your two posts over the last days calling the 130 liners a wet sock and the Proclines a pos design that will break is just at odds with the aforementioned adjectives. Then again, there might be a mighty procline and hawx 130 liner plague going on where they are buckling right, left and center that just hasn't reached the news yet
    That's good feedback. Wet sock is more like the TLT5 liner. I'd say dogshit is like the older Megaride Palau liners, the older Mercury/Vulcan stock. Binnable out-of-the-box failures is like the Boa liners for Factor, Khion.

    So to be more factual the Hawx 130 proto liner is soft. Having not skied the production liner I can't really say much more then that.

    And to be even more nuanced, stock non-Intuition liners I have tried and actually kept skiing - Tecnica ZeroG, Salomon Mtn Lab.

    Quote Originally Posted by kid-kapow View Post
    (and btw - i really appreciate the feedback on the stock procline liner being cold - i would hate to learn that the hard way, way out in the middle of nowhere with $#&%"#$% cold feet, so thanks for that. Now somebody else just have to design an equally good walking boot that is less prone to falling apart - aka a unicorn in the touring business)
    Scarpa F1! Atomic Backland! Dynafit TLT5 and Dynafit TLT6!

  15. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    So what about 180 for 12 minutes... is that not enough heat? I'm thinking about trying to have these done on a Fischer Vacuum, but I'm not sure how much above the 175 that Fischers are cooked at will be acceptable to a shop for fear of damaging the Vacuum fit apparatus?
    Never tried it, we don't have Fischer vacuum stuff. Let us know how it goes.

  16. #266
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    Tried on the 120 in 28.5 tonight and I don't think it will work lengthwise, probably due to the short BSL of 322.

    UNLESS, I can get like 5mm of memory fit stretch in the toe. Is this possible, or is the reported 5mm only for width?

    The rest of the boot fits like a glove, going up to the 29 will likely ruin the fit in other areas.

  17. #267
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    Hmm the 25.5 is 3/4 finger and 26.5 is 1.75 finger
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  18. #268
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    I got like maybe 1/2 a finger on the 28.5. I can't even squeeze my finger in there to check.

  19. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    Hmm the 25.5 is 3/4 finger and 26.5 is 1.75 finger
    I've had the 25.5 and 26.5 here in my house for the last few days while I've tried to figure out a similar dilemma. Eventually sent the 25.5 back and got hold of a thicker footbed to make the 26.5 work.

    I figure that if I regret the decision in the future I'll put a Zipfit liner in the 26.5 shells. to make them tighter.

  20. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    Scarpa / Roxa /Dalbello/ Fulltilt all go with the best liners . . .
    It's not so simple, there are "levels" of Intuition liners. Scarpa Intuition and Dalbello ID liners are full Intuitions (meaning all closed cell Intuition foam) with tweaks they spec when ordering. Fulltilt and K2 have their liners made by Intuition but don't use 100% closed cell EVA (Fulltilt) or only use heat moldable foam in the lower part of the liner (K2).

  21. #271
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    Yup I know that cuz I asked the Intuition factory outlet fiiter guy about the Scarpa liner and he sez it isn't exactly like what he was going to sell me for my Dynafit Vulcan shell and he even had an official sounding answer

    Maybe those aformentioned boot makers didn't exactly spec the "Best" or probably more accurate would be the same Intuition liners BUT at least they are making an effort to put the better or "best in their opinion" liners in their boots

    scarpa & fulltilt don't fit me so no experiance but I have 2 sets of the "original equipment" orange Dallbello pws and they work

    In comparison I suffered thru 2 days in the Palau liners in my mercury's and the Vulcan liners not at all, the shells are awesume but the liners ... total shit
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  22. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    Maybe those aformentioned boot makers didn't exactly spec the "Best" or probably more accurate would be the same Intuition liners BUT at least they are making an effort to put the better or "best in their opinion" liners in their boots . . .
    I think it's usually at least partially an economic decision. Also a new boot with a layer of soft carpet foam on the inside will feel better out of the box than a full closed cell EVA liner that hasn't been molded.

  23. #273
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    well I don't wear a scarpa so i can't speak to that but I do know that so far every Palau liner I have had to buy in Dynafit & Garmont boots pretty much sucked dead goats
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  24. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    well I don't wear a scarpa so i can't speak to that but I do know that so far every Palau liner I have had to buy in Dynafit & Garmont boots pretty much sucked dead goats
    Agreed about garmont liners...extreme p.o.s.
    Somewhat disagree about merc/vulcan liners...mercs lasted a few seasons but were cold. Bad, but not extreme p.o.s. bad. New vulcan liners seem mo betta than the merc liners...time will tell.
    Master of mediocrity.

  25. #275
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    In version 1 of Mercury and Vulcan the liners were exactly the same POS and they both had that stupid 3 mm patch of upside down cheap naugahyde/elastic on the instep to bug yer foot

    In version 2 of Vulcan they change the color of the plastic put in a new liner and charge another 100$ more ...I hope the new liner is better than what was in Version 1

    I supose we should just be happy Dynafit has seen fit to allow Canadians the privilege of paying > 1000$ to own the new and improved Vulcan
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

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