P18 Pivot FKS forward pressure - ignore the indicator?

[BC.]

Sales tell them otherwise: that they can leave it as is.

I would guess the design will not allow a FP indicator to ever be accurate. I mean really, that white tab and black relief works just like any other FP indicator on any other binding.

But I assume because when one adjusts for BSL the distance of the heel piece relative to the toe is altered (like any other binding) but also the angle of the struts holding the heel dildo also changes (unlike any other binding). My point is, adjusting for BSL and/or forward pressure incorporates an extra variable with the Pivot design.

Yeah, totally get your point. It is such a great binding that has such a loyal following, that there really is no need to change anything.

We've all kinda figured out ways to make sure it's "right"....its just weird to have a system (relief lining up with a tab) to check that FP is correct......but they never really line up.

Sorry...I'm OCD....I like when shit is lined up...lol

[mtskibum16]

Well, the forward pressure isn't super loose. But I do get some movement in the brakes when pulling the boot up/down

Skickat från min G8341 via Tapatalk

I've seen the tip about brake movement. I'm setting up my Looks right now and it seems like too much forward pressure with this method. The actual tech manual states the following:

The forward pressure adjustment on the FKS/Pivot bindings may take some fine tuning/adjustment.
1. Adjust the forward pressure by the two adjustment screws at the back of the heel. Make sure to adjust the screws
on the arms evenly (see photo D)
2. Latch the boot into the binding
3. Confirm that the White/Yellow tab aligns with, or is just past the two raised features on the heel base (see photo E)
4. Grab the heel piece with your right hand and if you are able to twist/rotate the heel easily, tighten the forward
adjustment (see photo F)
a. Make sure not to over tighten the forward pressure. The forward pressure is correct when you cannot lightly
rotate the heel on the boot and the heel has a strong elastic snap
5. Confirm the elastic travel at the heel and toe. If the forward pressure is too tight, the elastic travel will be negatively
affected

[J_Berg]

I’ve read every page on this thread, because upon buying some pivots off of Vitamin I, and getting them mounted by my go to shop, I think they mounted the heels too close to the toes.

Anyway, they told me the release values were to high to sign off on a safe binding. I called BS. (I now realized they blamed a botched mount on an old pair of bindings). Upon taking them home and clicking my boots in I realized the dildo didn’t even snap all the way up, and the toe wings show a small gap in between themselves with the boot clicked in. I hadn’t read this thread before skiing but I opened up the screws in the heels to increase the length between toe and heel. They do release with various off the hill tests but feel a little sticky.

Is there a limit to how far I could back off those heel posts before I risk ripping the dildo off? Also, I assume the toe wings should show no gap?


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[MRR11]

The arms have three knurled bands, ideally you set to the middle band, but within the three bands is the standard range of adjustment. While not ideal, you can go in further and risk notching the lug on your boot, and for backing the heels out, if you can see threads you've definitely gone too far.

I would suggest printing out a paper template and compare your mount to where the template puts the holes for your BSL, and go from there.

[sf]

I’ve read every page on this thread, because upon buying some pivots off of Vitamin I, and getting them mounted by my go to shop, I think they mounted the heels too close to the toes.

Anyway, they told me the release values were to high to sign off on a safe binding. I called BS. (I now realized they blamed a botched mount on an old pair of bindings). Upon taking them home and clicking my boots in I realized the dildo didn’t even snap all the way up, and the toe wings show a small gap in between themselves with the boot clicked in. I hadn’t read this thread before skiing but I opened up the screws in the heels to increase the length between toe and heel. They do release with various off the hill tests but feel a little sticky.

Is there a limit to how far I could back off those heel posts before I risk ripping the dildo off? Also, I assume the toe wings should show no gap?


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

The arms have three knurled bands, ideally you set to the middle band, but within the three bands is the standard range of adjustment. While not ideal, you can go in further and risk notching the lug on your boot, and for backing the heels out, if you can see threads you've definitely gone too far.

I would suggest printing out a paper template and compare your mount to where the template puts the holes for your BSL, and go from there.

Picked up a few pairs of used skis this year. I get correct forward pressure, but can see parts of the last band.
Will ski, but would like more data points

[Vitamin I]

...I think they mounted the heels too close to the toes.

Is there a limit to how far I could back off those heel posts before I risk ripping the dildo off?

In this situation where you don't have a trustworthy shop to help you, and it's difficult for us to tell you foolproof instructions (because FKS are set "by feel'), videos might work best for communication. But instead, maybe start over by at least making sure it's possible to set the FW pressure too low. To achieve that, adjust the arms to become very long, click the boot in, confirm that the dildo pops ALL THE WAY UP 100%, and then confirm that your hand can pivot the dildo easily enough so you'll think "Whoa, that's gotta be too much easy pivoting movement, so my boot will just be swimming loosely while skiing." If you can achieve that, then that's a good sign. That means it's possible to shorten the arm length from there, until it results in correct FW pressure. Then, at that correct FW pressure, there are some final checks to decide whether or not it's an acceptable mount (ask us, if you reach this point). On the other hand, if you can't even find any long arm length that confirms a low FW pressure position is possible, then you probably need to give up on the current mount and then remount for the correct boot sole length.

Also, I assume the toe wings should show no gap?

I say don't even work on that until after you get the FW pressure correct. But before you set FW pressure, make sure you first set DIN on heel AND toe to final value (or even higher...but NOT lower). Anyway, I think you have a DIN=12 toe, right? Those toes have a left wing part, and a right wing part, which are able to move away from each other by design, which can open a gap between them. With bindings all set to proper FW pressure and DIN, if both toes have the exact same gap there with boot in, then it's probably by design for the toe wings to spread in order to conform to the shape of your specific boot model. On the other hand, if the 2 toes have very different gap widths, then that would be very suspicious.

.

[margotron]

Paging reckless_toboggan


I've always set my pivots up so that the heel of my boot has a sliver of sunlight between the heel cup when stepping into the binding. This has worked well. I tend to ignore the indicator but on most setups, this puts the forward pressure tab "in the neighborhood."

If we use this "gap" as our forward pressure proxy, how much of a gap is there on yours?

[reckless toboggan]

Awesome. Thanks for the picks.

So I think most people set up so that the heel of the boot is just brushing the cup of the binding heel piece. That'll work, but I usually back the heel piece off about a quarter to half turn (one or two clicks on each arm) to get to pretty much what you have there.

I've also ridden them with more of a gap than that and they still worked. They felt lose and I could feel my heel coming off the ski and floating during certain circumstances, but no unwanted releases. Looked down and the dildo was off kilter about 20 or 30 degrees to the side of where it should have been. No biggie. This happened a few times riding them for 10 days or so at the Horse.

Decided to tighten them up to where they are now, similar to yours, and I noticed the stiffer connection to the ski, and experienced way less suppleness of the ski flexing under foot. These were on 193 EHPs and 186 EHPs.

I've since tightened all mine up to about where yours are, maybe one click out. Hard to really tell unless you feel them. With a boot in the binding, my dildos will still rotate on the boot, but not easily. Gotta pull kinda hard. There is a bit of brake movement when I reef on the boot.

When I've tightened pivots to where the boot heel is actually brushing the heel cup, and there is no brake movement when I reef on the boot, I feel like they really block out any feel under the boot, are very on-off in release, in a bad way, in a marker kind of way where it's unpredictable, but with some weird grindy type tension before it happens. There's no grinding per se, but like forcing plastic to dent or deform before release, instead of just a clean quick release. It makes the pivots feel like salomons to me.

To explain, per the other thread, I run salomons about 2 or 3 din higher than pivots, and I run about a half or quarter turn more ffwd pressure than what sally says. When I run with recommended forward pressure, especially on a well used set of sally favs, I get the no-release release from when the forward pressure spring can't keep up with the rebound of the ski and it just falls off your boot (granted, that only really happens much on hardpack, not as much in softer stuff, I haven't had it happen in truely bottomless stuff). So when I run the sallys with a quarter to half turn more ffwd pressure to reduce the instances of no-release releases, they have a firm snap, on off, clean release, that is predictable, but right before it happens, I get that same grindy tension plastic deformation feeling. Like there's too much friction. Because there is. I have to run more forward pressure to mitigate the binding giving me a random no-release release. When I run the sallys at normal ffwd pressure, they feel better, smoother, more supple, etc. but I've had the no-release release happen too many times.

Anyway, when I run pivots with the heel brushing the dildo and no brake movement when reefing, it just feels like there's too much friction in the system for me, at that point, and makes them feel like sallys to me.

tl;dr: looks good!

[klauss]

Awesome. Thanks for the picks.

So I think most people set up so that the heel of the boot is just brushing the cup of the binding heel piece. That'll work, but I usually back the heel piece off about a quarter to half turn (one or two clicks on each arm) to get to pretty much what you have there.

Your method is essentially how I had mine, ie close to touching but sliver of light, but I got there lining up the white tab with the lines. I kept popping out in rough terrain or while landing, so had to tighten fwd pressure. Now when I step in the binding has to use a small amount of it's elasticity, ie heel touching and pushes heel back ~ 1mm or the bindings do not keep me in in either set of boots I use - FWIW the white tab pushes out a mm plus from indicator lines.

RT has this "forward pressure spring can't keep up with the rebound of the ski and it just falls off your boot" really happened to you multiple times on different sally bindings. I've never experienced that and I ski plenty of crust/ice/hardpack

[reckless toboggan]

So just to catch everyone up...

This all stems from the Salomon shift thread, where I made this post.

I was a certified tech working in shops for a decade.

I worked in shops to help pay for my skiing since I was 15. I also coached for 4 years.

Coach also worked at the shop (he got me the job), he was meticulous about our gear. We tuned and checked binders before every race.

They were set correctly.


Also, I agree, setting look turntables forward pressure tighter than spec (I'm not talking about the tab here) does make them ski like salomons...which is a hudge detriment.

There are several look setup threads here on TGR which explain how to set them up to spec. Use them, then back off 1 click on each arm. You won't pre-release, no-release release, or release in an unwanted fashion. You'll actually be able to feel the ski flexing more freely underfoot. That's the beauty of the pivots. Don't make them ski like sallys.

More forward pressure means your heel piece is pushing your toe piece through release MORE often, with LESS elasticity (not to mention creating a hudge dead spot in the flex of the ski under your boot). So if your forward pressure is really cranked up like you say, then you're the one who's not set up correctly. With look, because of the arc the heel goes through to get out of the way when the ski is flexing (kind of like a mini-telemark binding in this regard), they are actually less sensitive to lower forward pressure setting than salomon are. ie. Low ffwd pressure looks will ski, low ffwd pressure sally will fall off as they rely solely on the ffwd pressure spring.


With sallys, aggressive skiers who know how to work a ski would benefit from a stiffer (or at least a faster rebound) forward pressure spring.

With sallys, if the ski flexes at all, the heel piece has to back up into the ffwd pressure spring to accommodate the boot sole length which stays the same, while the space between the bindings is trying to get shorter. With every flex and rebound of the ski, the ffwd pressure spring has an opportunity to leave a small gap between the boot and binding upon returning to home position. A faster rebound spring would help this, but not eliminate it.

With look, the binding heel arcs upwards, keeping the space the same to accommodate the boot, allowing the ski to flex freely without relying on a spring. Because it relies on the arc of the binding, and not on a spring, you don't have the threat of too slow a rebound in the spring. The binding always moves where the boot moves. When you run out of this arc path, then you back up into the smaller amount of fore/aft float in the base of the heel piece. After you go through that, then you release. Again, this is following an actual turntable setup (not the tab), then backing off one click.

D: I'm not even supposed to be here today.

R: You sound like an asshole!

[auvgeek]

Your method is essentially how I had mine, ie close to touching but sliver of light, but I got there lining up the white tab with the lines. I kept popping out in rough terrain or while landing, so had to tighten fwd pressure. Now when I step in the binding has to use a small amount of it's elasticity, ie heel touching and pushes heel back ~ 1mm or the bindings do not keep me in in either set of boots I use

This has been my experience as well. Though it's also hard because I turned the DIN up substantially at some point, too, so I'm not sure exactly what caused what. I currently run with the DIN set to 13 (chart at 9) and the fwd pressure set to heel brushing the heel cup. I kinda want to back off the forward pressure via RT's method ... but not enough to risk pre-releasing at high speed.

[reckless toboggan]

Your method is essentially how I had mine, ie close to touching but sliver of light, but I got there lining up the white tab with the lines. I kept popping out in rough terrain or while landing, so had to tighten fwd pressure. Now when I step in the binding has to use a small amount of it's elasticity, ie heel touching and pushes heel back ~ 1mm or the bindings do not keep me in in either set of boots I use - FWIW the white tab pushes out a mm plus from indicator lines.

RT has this "forward pressure spring can't keep up with the rebound of the ski and it just falls off your boot" really happened to you multiple times on different sally bindings. I've never experienced that and I ski plenty of crust/ice/hardpack

Yes. Skiing over 50 or 60 and pop a roller, prejumping a roller, etc., shifties, or really popped jumps with tricks, etc., dig a trench of a turn before a roller and get weightless and just have your unreleased ski drift off aimlessly while you try to collect your feces before impact...etc.

[reckless toboggan]

This has been my experience as well. I want to try RT's method, but not enough to risk pre-releasing at high speed.

FWIW. I've never pre-released with my method. I ski high speed pretty regularly during the day, over 60 easy, get to 70 regularly, a few spots with pitches that'll get you faster, but I don't recommend that anymore (these speeds allow for a GPS error of about 15% as the GPS Garmin 60CSx shows speeds that are faster).


In fact, while my boots sometimes felt like they float off the ski, they actually feel more dampened in the bindings because of more elasticity, and therefore MORE connected to the bindings themselves.


So I settled for somewhere in between, which looks to be right around where margo is set.

[auvgeek]

FWIW. I've never pre-released with my method. In fact, while my boots sometimes feel like they float off the ski, they actually feel more dampened in the bindings because of more elasticity, and therefore MORE connected to the bindings.

I believe you. But I also believe my experience, which is:

Chart to 9-9.5. Set DIN at 10 to be safe. Pre-released.
Turned up the DIN from 10 to 11. Pre-released.
Turned up the DIN from 11 to 12. Prereleased and torn a ligament in my wrist.
Turned up the DIN from 12 to 13 and increased forward pressure. Haven't pre-released since. Several reliable releases in that time, several "maybe my ski should have come off while I was tomahawking there, but I guess I was able to ski out of it so maybe that's fine?" moments, too.

I'm 165#, not a massive guy. Ski harder than some, not as hard as others. So while I want to try your method, I'm pretty wary of getting hurt because, as is typical of pre-release, I'm sure it would manifest itself at the worst possible time.

Just my story.

[reckless toboggan]

Do you guys ski shins hard in the front of the boot?

Or more centered like Hoji?

[auvgeek]

Do you guys ski shins hard in the front of the boot?

Or more centered like Hoji?

More centered, prefer a progressive mount. And usually on pretty stiff skis. All the pre-releases happened on OG Renegades.

FWIW, I’ve also skied P18s with the DIN set to 0 (turned down for summer — stupid, never again!) for two full days skiing pretty hard. But I had lateral releases trying to spin and then while side stepping and eventually figured out the issue. I felt SO stupid, but it was hard to tell because had been turned down so far and the plastic was really scratched and it actually looked like they were set to 11. Anyway, I also don’t break skis. So I don’t think I'm *that* hard on my bindings. Unlike a guy I know who walks out of his P18s set to 16 and snaps skis in the forebody pretty regularly. Obviously the dude rips super hard, but it's also his style of bashing moguls rather than popping of them that's so hard on gear.

[reckless toboggan]

Interesting.


I prefer a progressive mount and ski from the center with pivots on EHPs, Renegades, etc.

I can ski shins hard in the boot too, which is how I learned and coached when I was coming up on 197 straight skinny skis.

The sally no-release releases I had were when racing etc on long stiff straight skinny skis, or when ripping groomers on softer skis with short sidecut radii (20 to 22 m) using a traditional shins in tongues technique or a tip and turn technique.

The pivots worked for me both on those, and on the big radius, long, stiff skis that I prefer to ski from the centre now.

The only pair of salomons I have left are 916s on 191 Movement Goliaths and the new shifts on 186 Renegades. I haven't no-released on them. But I have very much reduced my exposure too Salomon over the last decade or so because of it.

It's funny because when I was racing and coaching, we'd specifically look for compressions right before rollers and plan lines to pre-jump the compression or pick an angle through it instead of straight on, because those were pretty much made to take salomons off your feet with a no-release. Compression flexes the ski, rebound of the roller...bye, bye ski. You could sit there and watch it happen all race long.

[galibier_numero_un]

Awesome. Thanks for the picks.

So I think most people set up so that the heel of the boot is just brushing the cup of the binding heel piece. That'll work, but I usually back the heel piece off about a quarter to half turn (one or two clicks on each arm) to get to pretty much what you have there.

Following up with photos, it looks as if I'm running too loose from your descriptions.

I've been basing my forward pressure setting on photo #3 - how the dildo is oriented when clicked into the binding. My assumption was that the contact point between the dildo and the horizontal heel ledge should be as great as possible - that the two surfaces should be parallel to each other. Actually, you'll see that the heel is cocked back a bit from parallel, indicating that I should loosen even further (if this assumption is correct).

In photos 1 & 2 (top and side view), you'll note that this results in a 5mm gap between heel and the cup when engaging.

I have problems engaging the heel frequently (need to manually assist), but prioritized the above parameter. I assumed this was the nature of the WTR heel profile (very little wear) on my Lange XT 130s. You'll also note that the bottom corner of the heel in the side view is just about engaged (contacting) the heel.

I'm a weenie compared to y'all and ski at 8 heel / 7 toe and never come out when I don't want to.

... Thom (scroll down for photos)

Heel gap spacing:




Heel gap spacing - side view:




Boot engaged:

[reckless toboggan]

...

I have problems engaging the heel frequently (need to manually assist), but prioritized the above (how it looks when engaged). I assumed the difficulty in clicking in was the nature of the WTR heel profile (even with very little wear on my Lange XT 130s). Take note of the bottom corner of the heel in the side view. It's making contact with the "corner" of the dildo.

I'm a weenie compared to y'all and ski at 8 heel / 7 toe and never come out when I don't want to.

...

I'm not sure I've got your meaning, but I've run mine with few more mm between the closest part of the boot heel and the dildo hump, while the boot is resting on the open binding (ie. I had more space between the boot heel and the dildo hump than you appear to have in pic #2). I had to do the manual assist to get in sometimes, as the binding would occasionally snap closed without capturing the boot heel ledge. That was about where I ran mine in its loosest setting, and when the ski felt most free underfoot. I had no I'll effects, other than the dildo rotating out of alignment a few times, which I'd notice once I got back to the lift line. I felt it was a bit too sloppy for my tastes and settled on a middle ground...although I wish I get the ski to feel as good underfoot as it did when it was set up the sloppy way.

In picture #2 it does look like your boot heel is grazing the middle hump of the dildo, maybe it's just the angle of the pic. So it looks to me that it's about the same, or even tighter than margotron's setup with the sliver of light. I run mine with a sliver of light. I make it so the boot heel brushes the dildo cup, and then back it of a click or two on each arm.

[galibier_numero_un]

This is really helpful. Thanks!

It seems as if we arrived at very similar solutions, but taking different approaches to get there. I initially thought that you guys were referring to the 5mm space I showed in photo #1.

I just saw @margotron's post (#83) and feel better now ;-) I couldn't believe that I was off by 4-5mm.

In looking at this, I adopted a working assumption of looking at it from the binding's perspective. What would result in the most positive contact with the boot?

My photo #2 - I tried to get as perpendicular as possible to view the space, but it looks as if I was off by a couple of degrees because the space (about 1mm) doesn't show. This is the space between the bottom corner of the boot sole and the cup of the dildo. I think this cup is what you mean by hump.

[edit] Reading through this thread, I see that Vitamin I, also endorses the horizontal/parallel relationship between the contact point of the dildo and the boot sole ledge (post #27).

So, boot sole brushing the cup gets you the same dildo orientation, but boot sole wear can skew your results, so cross validating is a good idea.[/edit]

... Thom

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk

[fastgary]

Thanks for this helpful info.

[pfluffenmeister]

Good read.
Adjusting Pivots now, FP looks solid.

However the friction between the toe and AFD is too high.
I've seen comments regarding toe height adjustability, is that controlled by the ring around the toe DIN screw?
With the three little indents that look like it requires a specialized tool to rotate?

Collective?

[waxman]

Good read.
Adjusting Pivots now, FP looks solid.

However the friction between the toe and AFD is too high.
I've seen comments regarding toe height adjustability, is that controlled by the ring around the toe DIN screw?
With the three little indents that look like it requires a specialized tool to rotate?

Collective?

what boot? which pivot toe? the ring does nothing

[pfluffenmeister]

Krypton Pro, but it does have a Vibram toe block (with a AFD) added.
P14 and FKS140 (I'm setting up two pairs of skis).

I can pull out the card I use to test toe friction in between the boot and binder, but it takes more effort than usual.
(Usually run STHs).

[waxman]

grip walk AFD or the dual height one? the 14 DIN toes are self adjusting for height, the added vibram is probably screwing it up, does it still fall into ISO 5355 dimensional standards?