Conveyor Method

[HansJob]

I saw this on BVBS's FB page. Very informative read.
https://www.outsideonline.com/204033...-revolutionary

[V-rex]

I thought this method was standard practice. It's what I was taught in both of my avalanche courses over the last ~6 years. Despite that, this seems like something I ought to practice with my buds in order to brush up and be sure everyone is on the same page as far as techniques go.

[summit]

Bruce Edgerly and Dale Atkins first presented the strategic shoveling concept at ISSW 2006 in Telluride. I first heard about it at CSAW 2006. The information was widely disseminated over the next season among professionals and has been standard practice in avalanche rescue for some time with a few minor variations and improvements.

Apart from that... entertaining article that interviews many leading figures in the avalanche rescue world. I've heard Genshwein speak on 5 occasions and taken field training from him (imagine a short angry sounding person with a Swiss German accent screaming at you to dig faster). He is quite the character. Almost always learn something, frequently agree with him, often change my practice... but sometimes not.

[LightRanger]

Great article.

I took Avy I in January or February 2006. This shoveling method was not taught then (which makes sense given Summit's timeline), but I've certainly read about it since. Need to practice it.

I'm happy with my G3 Avitech shovel, but was thinking about picking up another to have a loaner/car shovel. I assume that shovels with a hoe mode really help with the v-conveyor method, right?

[summit]

I'm happy with my G3 Avitech shovel, but was thinking about picking up another to have a loaner/car shovel. I assume that shovels with a hoe mode really help with the v-conveyor method, right?

You know this is a good question that someone just asked last class when I was teaching strategic shoveling. I thought about it for a moment and said something along the lines of: in theory it would be great but in reality you are constantly rotating your position in the digging formation and you don't have time to switch between hoe and normal shovel. Now maybe you could switch your shovel too but I think that is too much to think about unless you actually practice it regularly with your team of bc partners. I think that the shovel in normal mode is more than sufficient for the second and third tiers of the digging formation to paddles the snow back. The slowdown is always at the front where people are chopping into the debris. So, I don't know why Ortovox has the hoe option except for digging snow caves (I used to have an Ortovox a long time ago).

I'd rather have a D handle.

Open to being convinced otherwise.

And I love my G3 Avitech. Many good shovels out there. Love BCA's offerings too.

[adrenalated]

You don't have to choose - the Ortovox Kodiak, BD Evac, and Mammut Alugator Guide all have both hoe mode and a D-handle.

In my incredibly informal and unscientific testing having the 2nd or 3rd rows operating in hoe mode does feel a little easier and faster, thus saving a bit of energy. Although, as you note, the front people still should be in standard mode (chopping blocks is possible in hoe mode, but regular mode is better). I didn't find switching out shovels to be too complicated even when practicing with groups of people I didn't know or have never practiced with before (although they were all highly experienced people).

I totally agree that a regular shovel is completely adequate and that I'd prioritize D-handle over hoe mode. But, I do think the hoe is worthy of consideration for an experienced backcountry user. Hell, I like having the hoe mode just because it makes digging snow pits faster.

[LightRanger]

Hell, I like having the hoe mode just because it makes digging snow pits faster.

Yeah. That point occurred to me too a couple weeks back. Good one.

I'd be looking at the BD Evac 7 probably.

And, yeah, I wouldn't consider a shovel without a d-handle. I tend to get very cold hands sometimes, so I'm periodically wearing mittens. But d-handle is better even with fairly dextrous gloves.

[adrenalated]

I'd be looking at the BD Evac 7 probably.

I used one of those for the first time last weekend. Nice shovel.

[::: :::]

regarding the team dig vs hoe mode...team members could drop the "hoe" as they change positions

(re: D handle: I like it for mittens too)

[covert]

It would be nice if someone did another comprehensive shovel durability test. The one contained in TAR Feb 2009, p.28 is probably rather dated now.

The results were shocking, for me.

[LightRanger]

^^^ Indeed. I remember all the chatter when that piece came out. Was happy to find that I had one of the good ones.

Just noticed that issue covered Bela Vadasz's liftime achievement award. RIP.

[sfotex]

It would be nice if someone did another comprehensive shovel durability test. The one contained in TAR Feb 2009, p.28 is probably rather dated now.

The results were shocking, for me.

Hmmm, I might know some people that could get this done.

[meter-man]

Thanks for starting this thread. Excavation and shoveling are vastly underappreciated in importance for successful full-burial rescues.

It would be nice if someone did another comprehensive shovel durability test. The one contained in TAR Feb 2009, p.28 is probably rather dated now.

The results were shocking, for me.

Good god. I guess it's time to throw out my BD shovel! Yikes!!

[V-rex]

Thanks for starting this thread. Excavation and shoveling are vastly underappreciated in importance for successful full-burial rescues.



Good god. I guess it's time to throw out my BD shovel! Yikes!!

Shit! I carry the BD transfer 7. Haven't seen that test before.

[meter-man]

After further research..., there's always a counterpoint.

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...82#post2479282

Don't throw out your T7 yet.

[summit]

I still have my D3 for my little bitty BD Bandit inbounds pack. I'm not tossing it.

I will say that usually I haven't had to stomp on the shovel unless it is hours or days after the slide. If you have to stomp, it is going to be a long dig.

I've chopped in hard stuff with a BD, BCA, and SOS shovels, no problems. I do recall seeing some older Voile metal blades with the edge curled over from going at frozen debris.

My G3 is the stoutest I've had, and it handles the cement debris test for digging training holes better than I do

[I've seen black diamonds!]

It would be nice if someone did another comprehensive shovel durability test. The one contained in TAR Feb 2009, p.28 is probably rather dated now.

The results were shocking, for me.

I'd also like to see a new test. When that article came out it convinced me to ditch my BD and get a Tele Pro, even though I always had doubts about the methods of the test. I agree with many of the critiques in the responses. But why not use a shovel that didn't fail the test?

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

for a little cross-training, i will spend some time just shoveling snow from one place to another: lunch stop on a tour, xc break on the golf course, my back yard .......

[BFD]

I dug this hole yesterday to verify myself that Summit does not know what he is talking about regarding colorado snowpacks.

found this at the ground

I used a tele pro with a D handle owned this one for years. Done in the time it took my partners to eat their sandwiches.
hoes are for gardening.

[homemadesalsa]

It would be nice if someone did another comprehensive shovel durability test. The one contained in TAR Feb 2009, p.28 is probably rather dated now.


The results were shocking, for me.

It was way too politically charged for us to continue doing gear reviews, we have a small base of advertisers and I decided to let other folks (Backcountry Mag, other publications) do gear testing and I also don't print much in the way of gear reviews unless it's a safety issue.

[summit]

Not sure what BFD's beef is? You are butthurt about my comment about your old Voile? I mean if you weren't beating on refrozen debris what have you proven? I see why hms doesn't do gear reviews... you all fired up about the Voile comment... Manuel said people threatened to kill him over his article!

[bodywhomper]

As the ski buyer for two years at marmot in the late 90's, I intentionally biased my stock to mostly be d-handle shovels with t6 heat treated blades. I always had other options in stock. The few of us made sure that other staff were in the know about strength properties and why it was important. We sold a ton of the superior shovels. I felt that it was a public service.

Wasn't/isn't voile's bread and butter in shovel sales?

[covert]

Kill little ole' Manuel? Heartless fuckers. I'll do it if somebody wants to source the shovels. Pretty safe offer I figure

Shovels that survive could be donated to the kids at the Silverton Winter Sports Club.

edit: I don't mean kill and bury Sr. Pulse

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

I dug this hole yesterday.........

thats one good lookin' hole!

[BFD]

Southern Mountains are definitely continental as always