Fritschi Tecton

[SupreChicken]

I’m not an engineer and I don’t have the toe with me...

But couldn’t we just belt sand the “higher target” down? What would that do to the binding functionally? Anything?

[Spyderjon]

Well the 2nd and 3rd generation vipecs have almost zero problems and lots of people using them successfully.......

I've seen many failures of the 2nd & 3rd gen Vipecs all different. I swapped out 4 pairs of Blacks last March belonging to two Cham guides that all broke in their first week of use.

[MnO_____]

I wonder how much testing Salomon does compared to fritschi. Alkasquauwlik made it sound like Salomon puts a lot of time in to testing the bindings. Maybe the issue is that companies test with industry guys that are generally good skiers. If the fritschi team is half as best as I am, I doubt anyone on their team fell forward. Also does fritschi test with multiple brands of boots? Does Salomon only test with Salomon boots...?

I still have the Guardian release in fresh memory so I take the "tested for years of Salomon pro team" statement with a huge grain of salt. In the case of the Guardian, they said a group of skiers of the highest level had tested the binding for years and tweaked the design to perfection and jada jada jada. I don´t understand what they actually did in those years of testing.

With the Guardian it took me, as a totally random skier, half a run of skiing and 2 minutes of inspection to realize that there are some very obvious design flaws. Sure, products are never perfect and they need to get out to the market to make money and all that, but the Guardian binding is in it´s own league when it comes to design mistakes that would have been really easy to fix if just someone with a little bit of critical mind would have been integrated into the process somewhere along the timeline. How is it even possible that the pro riders don´t see things that are so obvious if they test the product? I mean things like the thin metal hooks against stainless steel bars for the heel holddown? Pretty much an optimized construction to build play up after a few weeks. And then you add the a narrow distance between the fastening points of the heel, further enhancing the problem by more than doubling the effect of the play. Just widening the platform would mean a lot less play travel, and would have reduced the forces on the fastening points so the weight could have been reduced, even while keeping the metal hooks. But no, instead they widened the inactive parts, so you have to haul around a lot of mass that have no positive impact on stability. Why make the heel so wide and beefy (and heavy) when the actual interface to the ski is so freaking narrow? Then, while you are at it, put some alu bars that are riveted in plastic meaning you create a weak spot seen from the moon. And like that isn´t enough, they also AGAIN multiply the practical effect of that weak spot by using a walk-ski-switch that make people think they can just slam the heel down to lock into ski mode. Which you can´t because then the snow buildup and icing just behind the toe joint will make the binding break. How do you maximize snow buildup? Well, ask any ten year old, and they know they should not lick on a metal bar in icy cold weather (special info to the Salomon Team: the tounge will stick just as snow stick to metal parts of bindings). Ten year olds would not use metal parts where you don´t want snow to stick. So many details that would have been an easy fix and that any tester should have noticed long before the launch.

I really hoped the Salomon Pro team learned a thing or three from the Guardian testing, especially in the sense that they actually have to test the products and not only borrow the helicopter and drink free beer. If they did, the Shifts might be great. The concept seems very promising and I look forward to try it. And I hope that I will not find the same obvious and simple points of improvements this time.

[SB]

Funny you should mention Guardians, was at a buddies shop the other day and they were trying to mount some guardians, it would not align and engage the hooks on the heel base properly. These are experienced ski techs mounting fresh out of the box bindings using the appropriate jigs.

If so much time and energy was put into the SHIFT why did they even Guardian?

[Spyderjon]

I don't/won't sell Guardians but I have a bag of spare toe base plates in stock to replace broken/cracked ones.

[steveski]

I've seen many failures of the 2nd & 3rd gen Vipecs all different. I swapped out 4 pairs of Blacks last March belonging to two Cham guides that all broke in their first week of use.

Fair enough.

Between myself and a few regular ski partners no issues with them after two years of use. They did have regular icing problems with the 1st generation, which made me hold off from switching from dynafits for another year.

As stated earlier: thanks to all who are real world "testing" first generation bindings and providing feedback and identifying problems.

[LeeLau]

I've seen many failures of the 2nd & 3rd gen Vipecs all different. I swapped out 4 pairs of Blacks last March belonging to two Cham guides that all broke in their first week of use.

What were the failure modes? I lost a heel riser in the 2nd gen model. It levered off when in high heel mode. I broke one of the black plastic pieces that guides the toe into the pins on the 3rd gen. Neither failure made the binding unskiable fyi

[Lindahl]

Our full review is now live, including a response from Fritschi regarding the boot toe damage concern:
http://blistergearreview.com/gear-re...schi-tecton-12

[doebedoe]

So Fritschi's response is basically: don't fall that way, then you won't damage your shit.

That seems like a lame response to me.

[galibier_numero_un]

Our full review is now live, including a response from Fritschi regarding the boot toe damage concern:
http://blistergearreview.com/gear-re...schi-tecton-12

Great write-up, and an interesting response from Fritschi (no spoilers - read the review). Thanks, Lindahl!

So Fritschi's response is basically: don't fall that way, then you won't damage your shit. That seems like a lame response to me.

I didn't want to give that comment away (my reply was sitting in draft mode while you posted).

One could argue that Fritschi considered the plusses to outweigh the minuses of the new design.

More likely, they discovered this during late stage testing when it was too late to implement a change. We'll never know until perhaps next year's model. At this point it is what it is (I ain't makin' excuses for them).

Im not a fan of the swappable bumper design, however (gen 1 through last year's Blacks). In this sense, I'm glad they tried to replace it. At one point, my two touring boots required different bumpers, and I didn't like the idea of having to swap them - with the possibility of them loosening over time and getting lost on the trail.

... Thom

[SB]

They are discounting it saying it rarely happens.

Sounds like they do not want to fix the issue.

[grinch]

So Fritschi's response is basically: don't fall that way, then you won't damage your shit.

That seems like a lame response to me.

I agree

[Muggydude]

How is the pin width set in the toe?

[meter-man]

Whoa. I've been skiing pow so haven't followed up with Fritschi yet.

I described the circumstance on how the boot impact occurred precisely so you all could see how it occurred. As meterman and CLong so ( sarcastically ) remarked, it's rare but it can happen.

Glad to hear it's snowing somewhere! **sigh** .... Anyway, I do appreciate your testing (and all of your reviews - fo real). I mostly questioned whether this is something we will see on a regular basis during real-world, regular use. I've only heard/seen of one occurrence of the toe-gina in real-world use, but your test shows it could happen more frequently. Let's see if it turns out to be a continued problem under actual use.

[LeeLau]

Glad to hear it's snowing somewhere! **sigh** .... Anyway, I do appreciate your testing (and all of your reviews - fo real). I mostly questioned whether this is something we will see on a regular basis during real-world, regular use. I've only heard/seen of one occurrence of the toe-gina in real-world use, but your test shows it could happen more frequently. Let's see if it turns out to be a continued problem under actual use.

yah i was being tongue in cheek. Use cases where this can happen is a forward fall with toe-locked out

- those who ski downhill with toe locked (not recommended but it will happen)
- ramming tip into snow on a kickturn
- ramming tip into snow scootching downhill with or without skins on

I can think of more. You're probably right that it's rare but I can see it happening

I personally Fritschi's "don't fall like that" response annoying. Just because I have 6 year old boots and don't really give af about how they look doesn't mean that others who have new boots who might get toe-punched shouldn't be concerned. I also spoke to two shops in Whistler and they hadn't been given any headsup by Fritschi. That's pretty disrespectful to frontline staff imo.

Anyhow; all my Vipec black toes and spare parts are in the city so it'll be a while till i can check. Went into the store to see what other boots are vulnerable to the same issue. I couldn't find a boot that wouldn't be compromised. So far I've checked

- Scarpa Maestrale RS
- Scarpa F1
- Scarpa Freedom
- Dynafit Vulcan
- Dynafit Beast
- BD Quadrant
- Scott Cosmos
- Atomic Hawx
- Salomon QST
- Salomon Mtn Lab
- Dalbello Lupo

[XXX-er]

From what i have seen lee has a lot of Toe issues ...just sayin

[grinch]

Fritchi bunion punch

[NorCalNomad]

If so much time and energy was put into the SHIFT why did they even Guardian?

You should listen to the Blister gear podcast where they talk about that. The advancement of CF reinforced polymer technology made it possible.

But the answer of "you shouldn't fall like that" is not just a lame answer but a BS answer. Because the binding damages other product when you are using it as directed by the manufacture in a common enough use case scenario that seems like that opens them up to some legal liability. Almost seems like you'd get a better product with an older toe and the Tecton heel.

I couldn't find a boot that wouldn't be compromised. So far I've checked
....
- BD Quadrant
...

FFS and that's probably the boot they were using as their CAD model template (it's the one in all the CAD videos) considering their ties with Black Diamond.

[greasyslope]

Thanks for all the info and follow up, especially LeeLau. Would it be a decent work around for now to simply always have the binding in "ski" mode, unless you are skinning someplace with really high consequence?
Will the toe release easier in a straight line pressure situation, and also hold you in well enough to not pop off when not desired?
Lee - are you willing to sacrifice your other boot to find out?!

[jackattack]

Our full review is now live, including a response from Fritschi regarding the boot toe damage concern:
http://blistergearreview.com/gear-re...schi-tecton-12

“make sure you’re in ski mode before skiing, and if you have a downhill pitch on your skintrack, consider transitioning to ski mode before descending.”

Seems like an appropriate solution to me.

[steveski]

Perhaps the "deal with it" response is a temporary one. Once more pressure is put on by consumers, testers, shops, etc. I can't imagine it will continue to fly. The litigation culture is to blame and/or thank.

[SupreChicken]

Ever slipped out on the skin track? Am I the only one that happens to? One step without good purchase could produce this outcome yes? And both of my boots are on the list. What’s the argument against vipec black toe and tecton heel?

[1000-oaks]

What’s the argument against vipec black toe and tecton heel?

Sounds just fine to me.

[skiSilent_skiDeep]

for those keeping score-

Bench tested the Scarpa Maestrale RS (314 bsl)

mounted the Tecton to a 2x4

boot at the forward limit in Walk mode-
Attachment 219535

with foot in boot, additional forward pressure was slowly applied against the toe bump. immediately noticed toe box deflection. kept applying forward pressure to the point at which toes were being smashed from the deflection and felt as if the bump was about to pierce the the shell. then backed off. drink-napkin calculations estimated the torque at < 80 N-m (low, relative to DIN 8.5 release torque 270-380 N-m).
didn't get a photo of max toe box deflection (not willing to repeat the test to capture one).

however, toe box did deform somewhat-
Attachment 219534

After tonight's experience and speaking as one who on occasion slips on the skin track, think I'll forgo the Tecton this season.
beta testers, best of luck.
Fritschi, fix this shit.

[SB]

Thanks for your efforts LeeL and all the beta folks.