Jackson Hole/Targhee/Tetons Roll Call 2016/2017

[neckdeep]

It is not by definition a criminal matter. No one has been charged with anything. Even if they were, its ultimately a jury question as to whether the conduct meets the definition of reckless endangerment.

If it's within the discretion of the DA to apply criminal law to a situation, it is by definition a potential criminal matter (by "criminal matter", I meant it can get to an arrest and trial). It's just that the past situations haven't warranted it. No drivers have gotten seriously hurt yet, that's all. You state that its not a crime to ski federal lands. That rather misses my point. It's not a crime for me to cut down a tree in my front yard. But if I ignore high winds and drop that tree into the road and flatten a passing car, I've got civil and possibly criminal liability for that. Right? I don't understand why you insist that skiers be subject only to civil liability. Are skiers a special class free from the consequences of criminal level recklessness? What recourse is civil liability against a ski bum? Are Pass skiers going to be required to purchase liability insurance so they'll have the means to make the plaintiff whole in a civil case?

I don't mean to piss in your ear, Woolly. I have respect for you. This is just hypotheticals.

Ok, here's a Socratic method exercise. Distinguish these fact patterns. Defendant 1 rolls a basketball sized rock off the summit of Glory, thinking there's no way it will make it more than a hundred feet down. Through a series of unfortunate bounces, the rock makes it down to the highway where it strikes a car and kills the driver. Defendant 2 skis Glory on a considerable rating day, thinking there's no way an avalanche will start where he is and run all the way to the road. Unfortunately, his ski cut releases a modest sized slide that hits the road and causes two passing cars to crash headfirst, killing someone. In both situations, there is no intent to harm anyone yet the defendant is the proximate cause of the death. Should criminal charges be brought in either of these cases?

Here's another. It's a high avy rating day. Defendants A and B have read the avy report and know it is a high rating day and that slide activity is occurring. They go to the Pass. Someone in the Pass parking lot tells them he witnessed a slide and had turned back. Despite that they ascend the North side of the road. On their ascent, they witness shooting cracks and whomping but continue, thinking they know a safe tree route and, at worst, they have proper gear, including airbags. On descending their "safe" line, they remotely trigger a massive slide that runs to the road striking a vehicle and killing all four occupants. Is this a "depraved indifference" homicide? Why not? How indifferent do skiers have to be before it becomes that "extreme indifference to the value of human life" that supports a 2nd degree homicide charge? Do we need video of the guy saying "I don't give a fuck" or can that ever be inferred from the facts?

[babybear]

I remember going up there on full moon nights and having our party of 3 or 4 being the only people there skiing fresh lines all the way down Glory.

me too
except the one time I forgot my boots and then I got to be the shuttle driver

[AdironRider]

Wooly is an attorney, specializing in criminal defense, speaking about the law. Not the skier involved.

Shouldn't you be tending to your fantasy real estate empire in Idaho, or counseling us all on how to
be the best slum lords possible, or maybe thanking your stars your not a bean counter in the basement of
the Four Seasons anymore?

Though I agree that it was not cool to be on the North side of the pass- I don't care how safe your line is.
They should just close the lot on top, let people get there exercise in starting from the bottom.

Not sure what I did to piss you off back in the day, but it appears we agree on this issue. So we have that going for us, which is nice.

[powdork]

What recourse is civil liability against a ski bum?

Are you suggesting there should be two sets of laws? If you're rich it's a civil matter but if you're poor you get locked up?

Ok, here's a Socratic method exercise. Distinguish these fact patterns. Defendant 1 rolls a basketball sized rock off the summit of Glory, thinking there's no way it will make it more than a hundred feet down. Through a series of unfortunate bounces, the rock makes it down to the highway where it strikes a car and kills the driver. Defendant 2 skis Glory on a considerable rating day, thinking there's no way an avalanche will start where he is and run all the way to the road. Unfortunately, his ski cut releases a modest sized slide that hits the road and causes two passing cars to crash headfirst, killing someone. In both situations, there is no intent to harm anyone yet the defendant is the proximate cause of the death. Should criminal liability attach in either of these cases?

http://www.trailspace.com/forums/bac...ics/39482.html

[raisingarizona13]

me too
except the one time I forgot my boots and then I got to be the shuttle driver

I did that once too. Except we had driven from Steamboat to Winter Park to go ski up on Rollins Pass. Luckily there was a ski rental place opened where I could grab some boots.

[Tye 1on]

I did that once too. Except we had driven from Steamboat to Winter Park to go ski up on Rollins Pass. Luckily there was a ski rental place opened where I could grab some boots.

I did that once too. Mine was lacing up snowboard boots at Snowbird and noticing one boot was ripped in half. Rented some super soft boots and followed my bud down some steep ass line off the tram for a warm up lap.

[panchosdad]

Fantastic skiing on Taylor today. Got full propagation from an ECT at the last storm layer and full collapse at the base on facets, South facing at 9000'. Saw some guys ski the gut of the South Face, so we must be good to go. Teton Considerable!

[SUPERIOR]

Fantastic skiing on Taylor today. Got full propagation from an ECT at the last storm layer and full collapse at the base on facets, South facing at 9000'. Saw some guys ski the gut of the South Face, so we must be good to go. Teton Considerable!

Yikes!

Avalanche safety is ultimately a numbers game, and I'm not ready to bet on anything yet this winter.

Just because one or two riders have safely crossed a suspect slope, that doesn't mean the area is safe.

Translation: I'm keeping my ass off any consequential lines until the snowpack has somewhat healed.

Everyone who is skiing this snowpack needs to pay attention to the avvy report, and dig some pits on representative slopes.

[homemadesalsa]

Yikes!

Avalanche safety is ultimately a numbers game, and I'm not ready to bet on anything yet this winter.

Just because one or two riders have safely crossed a suspect slope, that doesn't mean the area is safe.

Translation: I'm keeping my ass off any consequential lines until the snowpack has somewhat healed.

Everyone who is skiing this snowpack needs to pay attention to the avvy report, and dig some pits on representative slopes.

Panchosdad is most certainly tongue-in-cheek on that one. Hard to tell over the interwebs, but he laughs long and hard about "Teton considerable" and the competitive risk tolerance that it engenders.

Your assessment will keep you happily on top for a long time, Superior.

In other non-news, my feet got really cold teaching a level 1 at 3•F. But it's my dream job, right?

[panchosdad]

Yikes!

Avalanche safety is ultimately a numbers game, and I'm not ready to bet on anything yet this winter.

Just because one or two riders have safely crossed a suspect slope, that doesn't mean the area is safe.

Translation: I'm keeping my ass off any consequential lines until the snowpack has somewhat healed.

Everyone who is skiing this snowpack needs to pay attention to the avvy report, and dig some pits on representative slopes.

Sarcasm, facetiousness and satire dude. It's one of those, I'm not smart enough to know the difference.

[WMD]

I remember when no one skied Glory Bowl in the winter because it was deemed too dangerous. Life was still pretty good.

No idea what your point is RA.

I lived in Jackson for most of the 80's and mostly skied the pass. We never skied Glory because it was way too dangerous and there was so much else to ski that was incredible, especially on leather tele boots and long skinny skis. It is shocking to me to hear what risks people take there nowadays.

[sfotex]

I lived in Jackson for most of the 80's and mostly skied the pass. We never skied Glory because it was way too dangerous and there was so much else to ski that was incredible, especially on leather tele boots and long skinny skis. It is shocking to me to hear what risks people take there nowadays.

Geezus dude, that was like the pre-social media days when people did the stuff they wanted to do. What would be the point of skiing Glory if you couldn't twattergram about it?

[passholer]

cold and smokey out there, can't feel my toes but worth it

[akokskis]

^^ That looks purely delightful!

[WMD]

Geezus dude, that was like the pre-social media days when people did the stuff they wanted to do. What would be the point of skiing Glory if you couldn't twattergram about it?

So true. Although before the twatterverse we did have Kodak Courage (look up Kodak, kids) leading to bad outcomes. One friend busted his jaw hucking something a bit bigger than he expected because a magazine (google magazine too) photographer was shooting him. But otherwise we just went skiing for fun and lied about (I mean shared) our adventures at the bar.

[raisingarizona13]

I remember when no one skied Glory Bowl in the winter because it was deemed too dangerous. Life was still pretty good.

No idea what your point is RA.

Teh point was that there wasn't this sort of pressure on the pass back then (and every where else for that matter) and it's a shame how growth has had an impact on places and experiences to the point that a part of the discussion is closures and such.

Poorly articulated point for sure but it seemed real clear in a IPA buzzed and foggy state.

[coriendejong@yahoo.com]

you guys are getting hammered by snow and all you do is bitch. thanks for that awesome single lonely beautiful photo passholer

[babybear]

you guys are getting hammered by snow and all you do is go out skiing all day.

FIFY
skiing was excellent this w/e and it was relatively empty bc it was really cold so it kept a lot of people at bay.
esp sunday afternoon- there was nobody skiing but it was beautiful out

the snow is so so good and things are filling in well

[WaistDeepGroomers]

Just wanted to drop in and say I miss you guys and wish I still had the Glory bootpack 10 mins. from the office. Although Snowbird is nice. Shred First Turn for me!

[skiing-in-jackson]

↑ Skiing was great at the resort. Cold weather kept everybody away. -12⁰F at my house now and it's going to be 28⁰F tomorrow- with snow.

[homemadesalsa]

Agreed. I couldn't even count how many layers I had on for skiing up Mail Cabin in the shade. But then we broke out into the sun and it was lovely. Tried to take a photo but it was too cold and the camera died. Use your imagination.

[skiitsbetter]

people commute over a mountain pass to serve rich people starbucks on the other side?

[mall walker]

Hey JH people, hoping for some trip beta. Wife and I are considering doing 3 days in your general zone over New Year's again, we did this last year and had a blast. We'd probably only be doing 1 day at JHMR because we no longer get a deal on lift tickets, and we're touring more together this season anyway... so had a couple Qs:

1) What's that definitive teton pass guidebook?
(edit: no interest in peak bagging if the snowpack is sketchy)

and I guess 3, is it worth trying to ski at Snow King for a cheaper day? I'd prefer having a < 30 degree accessible backcountry thing in my back pocket (whether or not it gets tracked out quick) but idk maybe Snow King is cool? I can't even find ticket prices on their website though lol

Edit: we'll be at the quality inn or w/e 330 W Pearl st (right in town near where they make the melvins I believe), in case any of you hooligans wants to hang out. 29th/30th/31st

[brutah]

1) What's that definitive teton pass guidebook?

Turiano's Teton Skiing: A History and Guide to the Teton Range is pretty rad. Its not specific to the pass but does have a section on that area. Its definitely one of my favorite guidebooks of all time. Rich in history, lots of the route descriptions read like trip reports of the first descent. Really good stuff.

you can burrow my copy if you want

p.s. I think the Melvin Brewery is in Alpine

[mall walker]

Turiano's Teton Skiing: A History and Guide to the Teton Range is pretty rad. Its not specific to the pass but does have a section on that area. Its definitely one of my favorite guidebooks of all time. Rich in history, lots of the route descriptions read like trip reports of the first descent. Really good stuff.

you can burrow my copy if you want

p.s. I think the Melvin Brewery is in Alpine

Oh no I thought Melvin was in that Thai place? Thai Me Up or whatever? Bummer. Oh well.

I would totally borrow your copy if you don't mind, as that fucker is a stiff $140 online somehow apparently... I'll PM you, maybe can meet up for a dawner sometime next week