Jackson Hole/Targhee/Tetons Roll Call 2016/2017

[Tye 1on]

That'll get everybody fired up.

yep. You got that right.

[passholer]

"Nearby skier traffic may have initiated or remotely triggered the slide during these sensitive conditions."

idk about this.i doubt it,5pm skiing very unlikely,refreshing the webcam for hours i can say their was little late pm traffic pulling over to park,the same 4 to6 cars /trucks

[snapt]

I was 4 cars behind the Jeep, they were half buried and pushed over the snow bank on to the old pass road. Holy Jesus I'm glad they're ok, scared the shit out of me. I witnessed a single skier come down that zone to the road after it settled. Guessing they caused it, sheriff certainly went right for them. Who skis twin slides solo at 5pm on a day like today. Long drive home from Denver....

[panchosdad]

Who skis twin slides solo at 5pm on a day like today.

It's the JHole, just how we roll. Elite athletes with highly refined intuition are capable of making such decisions.

What's more surprising is that people are surprised by this behavior. It goes on all the time.

[yooper]

I'm just looking forward to February when there will finally be enough snow to make the resort skiable.

[skiing-in-jackson]

I'm just looking forward to February when there will finally be enough snow to make the resort skiable.

It was yesterday.

[yooper]

It was yesterday.

Just referring back to the classic quote from a few pages back...

[jackstraw]

What's more surprising is that people are surprised by this behavior. It goes on all the time.

It's been going on for a long time. That road had very little traffic years ago. Too bad Jackson didn't have some foresight developing more affordable housing with all their future development. I can't imagine driving that daily to work. How's your carbon footprint doing in one of the most beautiful places in the country.

[passholer]

I was 4 cars behind the Jeep, they were half buried and pushed over the snow bank on to the old pass road. Holy Jesus I'm glad they're ok, scared the shit out of me. I witnessed a single skier come down that zone to the road after it settled. Guessing they caused it, sheriff certainly went right for them. Who skis twin slides solo at 5pm on a day like today. Long drive home from Denver....

no shit.i retract my earlier post.now that you mention it i remember clicking on the webcam to see 2 young guys talking to sheriff in the parking lot.fucking idiots

[snapt]

Ya, I only saw one skier, but he skied directly down the flank of the slide and just stood there dumbfounded looking at the mess. Here's a shitty cell shot, twas just about dark, but you can see part of what went. I'm curious how high up it started.

[neckdeep]

Reckless Endangering:

A person is guilty of reckless endangering in Wyoming if he recklessly acts in a manner that places another at risk of death or serious bodily injury.

A reckless act is one that is committed, not necessarily with intent to harm another, but without regard for the outcome. Pushing someone out of the way in a crowd so that you can get through, without intending to injure the person, could be considered reckless. Triggering an avalanche in a known slide path above a busy road is probably a slam dunk conviction if a prosecutor wants to bring the charge and make an example out of someone.

Penalty: Misdemeanor. Up to one year imprisonment.



http://law.justia.com/codes/wyoming/...section6-2-504

[passholer]

dudes damn lucky

[abraham]

Holy shit.

Glad you're good snapt. That must have been scary to watch

[Woolly the Mammoth]

Reckless Endangering:

A person is guilty of reckless endangering in Wyoming if he recklessly acts in a manner that places another at risk of death or serious bodily injury.

A reckless act is one that is committed, not necessarily with intent to harm another, but without regard for the outcome. Pushing someone out of the way in a crowd so that you can get through, without intending to injure the person, could be considered reckless. Triggering an avalanche in a known slide path above a busy road is probably a slam dunk conviction if a prosecutor wants to bring the charge and make an example out of someone.

Penalty: Misdemeanor. Up to one year imprisonment.



http://law.justia.com/codes/wyoming/...section6-2-504

Let me preface the following comments by saying that I in no way endorse or defend the actions of anyone skiing above highway 22 in avalanche conditions like yesterday. I expect that all of us here agree that it is irresponsible to ski that terrain in those conditions. Nevertheless the notion that it should be a criminal matter is repugnant. What happens when a skier sets of a slide there in less than extreme avalanche danger? Will we have to have a jury trial every time a skier sets of a slide to determine whether it was reckless endangerment?

To be sure, there are many problems on Teton Pass, and there needs to be a comprehensive solution. My personal opinion is that there needs to be more parking at the top and pullouts for hitch hikers at commonly used access points. I also think there should be skiing closures to the north of the highway when avalanche conditions are high.

[Tye 1on]

Ya, I only saw one skier, but he skied directly down the flank of the slide and just stood there dumbfounded looking at the mess. Here's a shitty cell shot, twas just about dark, but you can see part of what went. I'm curious how high up it started.

rumor at the bar today was that he wasn't the skier that had kicked it off, that they were looking for that individual. [again, bar rumor, low credibility]

[neckdeep]

Let me preface the following comments by saying that I in no way endorse or defend the actions of anyone skiing above highway 22 in avalanche conditions like yesterday. I expect that all of us here agree that it is irresponsible to ski that terrain in those conditions. Nevertheless the notion that it should be a criminal matter is repugnant. What happens when a skier sets of a slide there in less than extreme avalanche danger? Will we have to have a jury trial every time a skier sets of a slide to determine whether it was reckless endangerment?

To be sure, there are many problems on Teton Pass, and there needs to be a comprehensive solution. My personal opinion is that there needs to be more parking at the top and pullouts for hitch hikers at commonly used access points. I also think there should be skiing closures to the north of the highway when avalanche conditions are high.

I don't write or enforce the laws. I didn't say it should be a criminal matter. Nevertheless, the law is on the books and as such it is, by definition, a criminal matter regardless of how you or I feel. So, what makes it "repugnant?" Is there something about skiing/snowboarding that makes us a special class of actor exempt from the laws that govern the rest? I am curious if you would feel different if the driver had gotten hurt of killed. Where do you see the threshold where criminal or civil liability attaches? Upon injury? Death? Never?

Anyways, that law is on the books and when some driver eventually gets fucked up, there will be pressure placed upon the DA to enforce it. All its going to take is one car full of kids getting squashed and WYDOT closes the whole show down for good. Like you noted, there can be a fair solution crafted where the access is preserved but overhanging slopes are closed sometimes until WYDOT can complete its avy mitigation. Basically, it'll be up to B-T Avy and WYDOT to determine the standard of care. If there's a subset of users that habitually fails to exercise good judgement, then B-T Avy's more qualified judgement will become the rule. Let the controversy begin whether that starts at a considerable or high rating. Skiers who defy a closure will likely be prosecuted for reckless endangerment. And, imho, anyone triggering slides over the road is already exposing themselves to that liability, as well as civil torts in the event drivers are hurt or killed.. The issue, ultimately, is whether we want to prevent that from happening in the first place.

[babybear]

at the avi night it sounded like ski access could easily be taken away if the roadway keeps being pressured by more danger from skiers
wd hate to see that but only takes a bad apple or two to ruin it for everyone. I know everyone here gets that tho

imagine how ornery we'd be as older people telling the whippersnappers how it was when you could ski on teton pass

dear lord baby jesus no

on the up side- I do so enjoy skiing inbounds at JH too and shall be testing out my new puffy in the subzero tmrw
Andrew tuned my skis up last night bc we're gonna need some sharp edges tomorrow!

[glademaster]

at the avi night it sounded like ski access could easily be taken away if the roadway keeps being pressured by more danger from skiers
wd hate to see that but only takes a bad apple or two to ruin it for everyone. I know everyone here gets that tho

imagine how ornery we'd be as older people telling the whippersnappers how it was when you could ski on teton pass

dear lord baby jesus no

[babybear]

um- it was a joke
hence the talladega nights quote

[Woolly the Mammoth]

I don't write or enforce the laws. I didn't say it should be a criminal matter. Nevertheless, the law is on the books and as such it is, by definition, a criminal matter regardless of how you or I feel. So, what makes it "repugnant?" Is there something about skiing/snowboarding that makes us a special class of actor exempt from the laws that govern the rest? I am curious if you would feel different if the driver had gotten hurt of killed. Where do you see the threshold where criminal or civil liability attaches? Upon injury? Death? Never?

Anyways, that law is on the books and when some driver eventually gets fucked up, there will be pressure placed upon the DA to enforce it. All its going to take is one car full of kids getting squashed and WYDOT closes the whole show down for good. Like you noted, there can be a fair solution crafted where the access is preserved but overhanging slopes are closed sometimes until WYDOT can complete its avy mitigation. Basically, it'll be up to B-T Avy and WYDOT to determine the standard of care. If there's a subset of users that habitually fails to exercise good judgement, then B-T Avy's more qualified judgement will become the rule. Let the controversy begin whether that starts at a considerable or high rating. Skiers who defy a closure will likely be prosecuted for reckless endangerment. And, imho, anyone triggering slides over the road is already exposing themselves to that liability, as well as civil torts in the event drivers are hurt or killed.. The issue, ultimately, is whether we want to prevent that from happening in the first place.

It is not by definition a criminal matter. No one has been charged with anything. Even if they were, its ultimately a jury question as to whether the conduct meets the definition of reckless endangerment, and there are a lot of arguments that what occurred here doesn't meet that definition (and to be clear, we don't know exactly what happened, including whether it actually was skier triggered, so we shouldn't be debating it on a internet forum). I haven't heard anyone say that skiers and riders should be exempt from the rules that apply to anyone else. What I'm saying is that skiing and riding on our public lands is not a crime. If someone is deemed responsible for an injury to another person or their property, then that is a civil matter, not a criminal matter, and that is the way that it should be. You're also wrong about BT or WYDOT establishing a standard of care, that is a function of the courts or the legislature. I agree with you that someone violating a closure could potentially face civil or even criminal liability, but that is not the case in this incident. What I was suggesting was that its time to have a reasonable conversation about the issue. Posting criminal statutes is not a constructive way to start that conversation.

[AdironRider]

It is not by definition a criminal matter. No one has been charged with anything. Even if they were, its ultimately a jury question as to whether the conduct meets the definition of reckless endangerment, and there are a lot of arguments that what occurred here doesn't meet that definition (and to be clear, we don't know exactly what happened, including whether it actually was skier triggered, so we shouldn't be debating it on a internet forum). I haven't heard anyone say that skiers and riders should be exempt from the rules that apply to anyone else. What I'm saying is that skiing and riding on our public lands is not a crime. If someone is deemed responsible for an injury to another person or their property, then that is a civil matter, not a criminal matter, and that is the way that it should be. You're also wrong about BT or WYDOT establishing a standard of care, that is a function of the courts or the legislature. I agree with you that someone violating a closure could potentially face civil or even criminal liability, but that is not the case in this incident. What I was suggesting was that its time to have a reasonable conversation about the issue. Posting criminal statutes is not a constructive way to start that conversation.

Holy fuck did you set off the slide or something?

If you are a moron and set off an avalanche that results in someone swimming for their life you are a criminal. It was posted all over the internet, don't fucking go there unless you want to die, then this me first jabroni ignores it. It's criminal, and after they put his ass in jail for a year, they can civil suit his estate for damages. Just deserves.

My wife or myself could have been that Jeep driver. It's not just about you the skier. You have a bunch of folks just trying to get to work below you. You want that it's not a crime to ski bullshit, go somewhere where there is no consequence for innocent people.

[adrenalated]

Here in CO there are slide paths that are permanent USFS closures during the winter months because they threaten the road. This type of closure can and will happen elsewhere if people put snow on the road.

[raisingarizona13]

at the avi night it sounded like ski access could easily be taken away if the roadway keeps being pressured by more danger from skiers
wd hate to see that but only takes a bad apple or two to ruin it for everyone. I know everyone here gets that tho

imagine how ornery we'd be as older people telling the whippersnappers how it was when you could ski on teton pass

dear lord baby jesus no

on the up side- I do so enjoy skiing inbounds at JH too and shall be testing out my new puffy in the subzero tmrw
Andrew tuned my skis up last night bc we're gonna need some sharp edges tomorrow!

I remember going up there on full moon nights and having our party of 3 or 4 being the only people there skiing fresh lines all the way down Glory.

[panchosdad]

I remember when no one skied Glory Bowl in the winter because it was deemed too dangerous. Life was still pretty good.

No idea what your point is RA.

[SuperGaper]

Holy fuck did you set off the slide or something?

If you are a moron and set off an avalanche that results in someone swimming for their life you are a criminal. It was posted all over the internet, don't fucking go there unless you want to die, then this me first jabroni ignores it. It's criminal, and after they put his ass in jail for a year, they can civil suit his estate for damages. Just deserves.

My wife or myself could have been that Jeep driver. It's not just about you the skier. You have a bunch of folks just trying to get to work below you. You want that it's not a crime to ski bullshit, go somewhere where there is no consequence for innocent people.

Wooly is an attorney, specializing in criminal defense, speaking about the law. Not the skier involved.

Shouldn't you be tending to your fantasy real estate empire in Idaho, or counseling us all on how to
be the best slum lords possible, or maybe thanking your stars your not a bean counter in the basement of
the Four Seasons anymore?

Though I agree that it was not cool to be on the North side of the pass- I don't care how safe your line is.
They should just close the lot on top, let people get there exercise in starting from the bottom.