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  1. #1
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    Help save the future of La Grave

    Hey folks, it's been a while.

    Many of you know La Grave - you've been there and experienced everything that is wild, crazy and weird about it. If you haven't visited, here's what you need to know about it: big mountain, big (old, slow) ski lift, 7,000' vertical drop, no pistes, no signs, no ski patrol. You take responsibility for yourself - for having fun, but also for getting down safely (or at all - far better skiers than me have gone out, never to return). This film and this film give an impression of what the place is about. It can be a place of the best of times, also the worst of times. It is unique, and one of the most special places to ride mountains.

    Alongside this, the local native population have suffered from long-term poverty and depopulation as their children chase jobs elsewhere. The French locals have always had an uncomfortable relationship with tourism.

    La Grave - as we know it - is under threat. The lease to manage the lift is due for a change of management; different parties are in the running but the most likely candidate is Compagnie des Alpes (effectively the European Intrawest). Their MO runs against what makes LG special in almost every way: they do high-speed, high-capacity lifts; pistes; real estate development and so on. If, as looks likely, they win the contract to operate the lift, La Grave will probably become just another typical ski hill, albeit with some insane terrain beyond the rope.

    A big investment by a big company would bring some benefits to some of the local people, but they would not be evenly shared. Many local people are thrilled at the possibilities a big inward investment would bring; many are uncomfortable with the prospect of the character of the place being dramatically altered. It is a complicated issue.

    A group of skiers (not people I know personally) are trying to offer an alternative to a big company running the lift: a crowdfunded campaign to raise funds to put together a bid to operate the lift, but also to show the depth of support for keeping La Grave special and unique. Their aim is to run the lift, but also to improve its operation and bring about sustainable development and growth for all the local people.

    I think the whole local political situation is complex, but I believe that this campaign offers the best chance to keep La Grave special for skiers. Many of us are increasingly faced with ugly political situations at home, but - as skiers - this is a positive movement to get behind. Please watch the video below, have a look at the crowdfunding page, and consider pledging.



    I am very happy to answer questions or debate things below, feel free to flame away. :-)

  2. #2
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    I'm stepping up.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  3. #3
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    This is a laudable goal. Consider a few schekels, folks.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  4. #4
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    Done. I hope that they can pull it off.

  5. #5
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    I'm in. Haven't been, but hope to go one of these days. Lots of stoke has come from that place, and hopefully more will.

    A vintage perspective -


  6. #6
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    SWEEET STOKE +++++, 4 la grave!

    Sik competence on dem straight skis!
    /Salute
    ski paintingshttp://michael-cuozzo.fineartamerica.com" horror has a face; you must make a friend of horror...horror and moral terror.. are your friends...if not, they are enemies to be feared...the horror"....col Kurtz

  7. #7
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    I would love to love the project, but I would need more info. Like, where those 5 millions € needed to upgrade the lift will come from ? What investors ? 45000 on indiegogo are fine but won't foot the bill. What are those unacceptable terms, on the appel d'offres, by the way ?
    Don't get me wrong, I love the idea. And screw the Compagnie des A. But we're talking serious money and a long term plan. They need to give more than platitudes on sustainability.
    Oh, and it would be nice to read some french, besides a pdf.
    "Typically euro, french in particular, in my opinion. It's the same skiing or climbing there. They are completely unfazed by their own assholeness. Like it's normal." - srsosbso

  8. #8
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    will donate, based on the simple fact that la grave is of respect and very unique.

    i hope to go there someday!

    i almost know nothing about the fight, but valley x should remain valley x

    vive la telepherique!!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by philippeR View Post
    I would love to love the project, but I would need more info. Like, where those 5 millions € needed to upgrade the lift will come from ? What investors ? 45000 on indiegogo are fine but won't foot the bill. What are those unacceptable terms, on the appel d'offres, by the way ?
    Don't get me wrong, I love the idea. And screw the Compagnie des A. But we're talking serious money and a long term plan. They need to give more than platitudes on sustainability.
    Oh, and it would be nice to read some french, besides a pdf.
    Agreed about lots of this. I was in touch with the crowdfunders and people connected to them before I pledged. The aim of the €45,000 is to raise the funds to be able to pay to put together the bid to run the lift; they plan to raise the further ~€5m from private investors (and though they aren't saying it, I suspect from the state). I have not seen the appel d'offres but it was described to me as being specifically written so that the only people who could meet its terms were CdeA.

    My view is that there are a lot of risks and challenges involved for this bid; it would be naive to think that if they raise the money they'll definitely go on to win the tender to run the lift. So I think crowdfunding and spreading the risk among a large number of people is a smart thing to do. Equally, it doesn't look like anyone else will come forward with a bid that would not involve radical changes to LG - so if the idea of LG staying roughly as it is matters to you then the only option is either to support this bid, or do nothing.

  10. #10
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    I'm in.

    La Grave is a special place. Spent lots of time there in '91-'92, loving the Trifide couloirs (no, not the one with the mandatory massive air exit...), and since then a few summer visits with Ms Island Bay. High hopes of returning in April, but even if we don't, it's place worth helping to protect.

    Oddball ski areas like La Grave, and my beloved NZ clubfields, are increasingly rare to find, and a threatened species. The world would do well to support the special anarchy and resilience these places breed.

  11. #11
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    So, I am in for this. However, I have to ask the question--is it arguably selfish to support this? i love La Grave and could see Compagnie Des Alpes ruining it in one way or another (truth is, I can't even really figure out what they would do with it and would be curious to hear what they claim their plans are), but would it be economically better for the (few) residents if CDA owned it? And should my interest in keeping the coolest ski area in the world 'cool' for the few skiers who really want something like that trump the interests of the people in LG? Obviously if most (or even just a large percentage) long time LG residents were against the CDA ownership it would probably eliminate my questions.

    Really, the best place in the world to ski that I've been (went in about 98 and finally got back, after telling myself I would every year, two years ago). Pain de Rideau a few times on a bluebird day following a few feet of snow (ably guided by Chad Vanderham--such a loss) are, if not the runs of my life, certainly in the top handful. Assuming the locals are on board with this I think it should be a cause skiers everywhere could support. Even if I never get back again I like knowing that it is there.
    [quote][//quote]

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki View Post
    ...would it be economically better for the (few) residents if CDA owned it? And should my interest in keeping the coolest ski area in the world 'cool' for the few skiers who really want something like that trump the interests of the people in LG? Obviously if most (or even just a large percentage) long time LG residents were against the CDA ownership it would probably eliminate my questions.
    Short answer: it might be. Long answer: it's really complicated.

    Different locals (by which I mean native French people) have very different views on it. To give some perspective, LG has always had a chequered history with tourism. When the French government was giving huge subsidies to develop ski resorts (in the 1950s and 1960s) the people of LG wanted nothing to do with it because they didn't want their area to change dramatically.

    As the place got poorer the locals' views changed; the development of the lift in the 70s was intended to reap some tourist $$$ without dramatically changing the place. Nonetheless, lots of locals were against the lift (some even bombed the base station, on environmental grounds), and when the project initially tanked financially a lot of people felt burned by the experience (though I don't know the ins and outs of who lost money).

    Fast forward 40 years and the situation has developed further: there is almost no non-tourism industry in LG (or businesses that don't somehow derive most of their income from tourism); many of the people are very impoverished; young people typically leave as soon as they can to seek work elsewhere. And there remain some people in LG with such conflicted attitudes to the lift that they've never gone up it, despite living opposite it for 40 years. That said, the lift has more or less achieved the aim of getting some of the benefits of tourism without dramatically changing the place.

    I have not been in LG since all this has been going on, so I am reporting what others have told me. Some locals would love CdA to take over and they see it as a path to wealth, or at least less poverty. Others maintain the view that they want the benefits of tourism, without dramatic change, so to them the crowdfunding project holds some interest. Really, this is a question of local politics. And this is not just any local politics: it is French local politics.

    Like you said, it would really help if CdA were to open up about their plans. But in a (theoretically) competitive tendering, they are never going to do that. The CdA stuff is complicated. I am told it is a personal ambition of one of their senior staff to run the LG lift. On the other hand, it is tough to see how it would fit into their portfolio.

    Whilst I would love to see LG continue to be an amazing place to be and to ski, I have to respect that the locals have had the shitty end of it economically for a very long time. My view is that intensive tourism is likely to have the same results as elsewhere in France: a few people will do very well; most others will be edged out of their hometown as the place becomes unaffordable for them; ultimately a lot of people who were locals will feel like outsiders as the place is dominated by richer people from elsewhere. I think the crowdfunded plans could offer the best chance (as far as we know, in this opaque situation) of avoiding this.

  13. #13
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    ^ You make some excellent points, thanks.
    I'm still conflicted about this project. I'm sorry to say they don't provide enough informations for me to take side.

    So, I'll just throw here some facts that may be relevant and a few thoughts (also answering Buster in the other thread).

    La CdA is not vail or Intrawest, that's not the french way. What they do is running lifts and grooming slopes. They do not own the land or the real estate (though they act as real estate developpers too in some resorts). French resorts are not resorts in the US sense, where a single compagny owns the land, the lifts, the lodgnig and every business in town. Nobody own Val d'Isère or Chamonix, and certainly not La Grave.
    Of course, one may suspect that they will wish to run things differently and transform La Grave in a more tourist friendly resort... But they won't start building condos all over the place and groom the whole mountain like crazy. Because they can't. That's not the point of the concession. And because it's probably too expensive either.
    They will probably build a link between La Grave and les 2 Alpes, on the Girose glacier, though. Not necessarily a bad thing.

    The relations between the mayor and Denis Creissels (current owner of the TGM, and who is 82) are very sour. They're actualy suing each other... Nonetheless, the TGM should bid an offer.

    The Dauphiné reports 5 bidders to the appel d'offres, closed on 10/28. There's an entry fee (translation..?) of 100000€. The winner will have to build the "3rd part of the téléphérique". I would love to know more...
    http://www.montagnenews.fr/appels-of...rs-de-la-meije

    I'm not sure how the locals would feel with a consortium of foreign investors in charge of the lift. La CdA is local, in a way...
    "Typically euro, french in particular, in my opinion. It's the same skiing or climbing there. They are completely unfazed by their own assholeness. Like it's normal." - srsosbso

  14. #14
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    P - Ski resorts en les Etats-Unis typically don't own the land where the ski runs are, that's usually public land managed by the federal government, usually the Forest Service. The US resort companies do own some land at the base, but not all of it and there is a good deal of business diversity for lodging, food and drink. So there are some common factors.

    LDA is known as an ugly resort. I've read of it referred to as 'le factory'. And by French ski resorts, that's saying something. Who's to say whether CDA may or may not acquire land in La Grave and build one of those monster ugly concrete blocks.

    At the heart of the proposal I hope is the intent is to let the people of La Grave know that there's an alternative to CDA, that they can maintain the character and cultural terroir that make LG so different from Chamonix, l'Espace Killy, LDA, ADH, Trois Vallees or Ski Paradis (Les Arcs etc). We think that this identity and sense of place is a precious thing and if there are people in LG who would like to preserve it as is their right, then again hopefully this effort provides a different option.

    Et merci beaucoup pour le vin rouge au Le Deux Magots en Juin. Ma famille avons le temps de nos vie en France l'ete dernier.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by philippeR View Post
    ...I'm still conflicted about this project. I'm sorry to say they don't provide enough informations for me to take side...
    It took me a while, and several conversations with people more familiar with what's going on in LG, before I came down in favour of this scheme. So I completely understand this point of view.

    A few points in response to your post:
    - I should have been clearer about the Intrawest link - for a long time they owned a major share in CdeA. That's why I say CdeA was in effect European Intrawest, it really was their European arm. To many people CdeA epitomises the mass tourism, or blanc style development that the people of LG were so keen to avoid in the 20th century.

    - Cressels was described to me as ineligible to bid due to a court judgement against him in the employment dispute with the maire. I haven't been able to fact check this.

    - are you able to post the most recent Dauphiné article here? I don't have a sub and it wouldn't let me register.

    - CdeA (or another group) could take over and run LG in a very benign way (heck, they could even improve the place :-) ). But there's huge opacity to the tendering process and I think it is really important to be sure that at least one bid entered which contains an express commitment to retain all that is special about LG. In my opinion, a few hundred people throwing in less than the cost of a day pass is (individually) cheap insurance to ensure this view is represented.

    - Part of the aim of the project (as Buster mentions) is to highlight to the mairie, and to the people of LG, how many people value the special nature of the place (and all the globla press coverage might even help this). Whether that will affect their decision is unknown, but I think it is a valuable exercise nonetheless.
    Last edited by Mulletizer; 11-24-2016 at 09:21 AM.

  16. #16
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    Actualy, Mulletizer, I agree with all your points. It's a long shot, but a worthy endeavour. I wish them the best. I was just voicing my concerns.

    Buster, I stand corrected about my simplistic take on the US model. Nonetheless, my gut feeling is that it would make no sense (and cost too much money) for the CdA to really change La Grave. The place is unique and there's a mega resort, Les 2 Alpes, just around the corner (and Serre Che not so far away). It could be a nice vanity project, their grassroots, authentic alibi. Maybe I'm just overly optimistic...
    I agree that Les 2 Alpes is butt ugly. But the ski area is not... Of course, we could debate endlessly on the merit of a connection between La Grave and L2A. But the mairie wants it, it's part of the appel d'offres.
    IMO , those are absolutely opposite kind of ski experience. I don't think that the average L2A guest would be very interested in skiing LG. I would not expect a massive influx of gaper on the glacier de la Meije. And options are good IMO. But I can see how it could be a disaster...
    Cheers.
    "Typically euro, french in particular, in my opinion. It's the same skiing or climbing there. They are completely unfazed by their own assholeness. Like it's normal." - srsosbso

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by philippeR View Post
    ^

    I'm not sure how the locals would feel with a consortium of foreign investors in charge of the lift. La CdA is local, in a way...

    Im sure they'd feel the same way the rest of the world does when the US comes in and funds one side of a long standing, highly complex, emotionally charged regional conflict.

  18. #18
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    I've been watching this with great interest and am considering throwing in to the crowd fund. .
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletizer View Post
    Nonetheless, lots of locals were against the lift (some even bombed the base station, on environmental grounds),
    I think I read about that back in the 90's before I'd even been there. Classic French move.


    Like you said, it would really help if CdA were to open up about their plans. But in a (theoretically) competitive tendering, they are never going to do that. The CdA stuff is complicated. I am told it is a personal ambition of one of their senior staff to run the LG lift. On the other hand, it is tough to see how it would fit into their portfolio.
    That's what I was wondering, but it is also true that they are not Intrawest and seem to just sort of run a lot of lifts. If they were to assure everyone that they would simply run and maintain the lift without making substantial changes to the skiing I think people might accept that. But I really don't know what the risk would be of them turning around and deciding to create a new mega-area--although I just don't see La Meije as being conducive to that.[quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post

    LDA is known as an ugly resort. I've read of it referred to as 'le factory'.
    Yes, when I was in LG the first time Pelle and others regularly called it 'l'usine' (the factory).

    I hope they never build a connector from LDA. I remember it being a 10 or 15 minute hike over the top to get there--I guess it is more of a slog to come back, though. I think bringing people over from there to LG could be a bad idea.
    [quote][//quote]

  20. #20
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    PhilippeR & Mulletzer,

    Thanks for your insights. When I first read of Signal de La Grave's fund raising venture I had all of the same concerns. It's impossible to know what the long time residents want. My guess is that it's very complicated and you're likely to get a different answer from each person that you ask.

    The concerns about whether or not the project represents the locals wishes or just the wishes of a bunch of foreigners with romantic day dreams about greener pastures on the other side of the fence are definitely valid. In the end, I'm under the impression that the Mairie will decide based on the proposals received. I know nothing about how these sort of things work in France (and my french isn't nearly advanced enough to understand the nuances of the Délégation de Service Public relative à l'exploitation des téléphériques des glaciers de la Meije) but I assume that they will have the option of choosing the best proposal. I also assume that the decision doesn't happen in a vacuum. Therefore, having more options on the table can't possibly be a bad thing. In the end, CdeA may offer up the proposal that is best for La Grave's future, but it's always preferable to have competitive options.

    On a different note, they've met their fundraising goal. I would encourage everyone who was thinking about pitching in a donation but hasn't gotten to it yet to do so anyway. The idea of the indiegogo fundraiser is to show that there is a very large group of people who care about the future of La Grave as something different from the mega resorts scattered throughout the alps. Therefore, more individuals donating furthers that goal.

  21. #21
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    Thanks to everyone who has thrown in to this project. The crowdfunding has met its goal, but all extra will help. There are 8 days to run, you know what to do.

  22. #22
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    I've never been but want to very much - will throw in to help support the project.

  23. #23
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    Thanks to everyone who backed this. It didn't work out in terms of the lift contract but your donations will help improve life in LG, and a great many voices have been heard as a result.

    Quote Originally Posted by Signal de La Grave on Facebook
    Today we have received the news from the commune of La Grave that we have not been selected for the negotiation phase .

    We are really sorry and disappointed about this decision but we should accept it. We had a good chance and really wanted to give it a go and try our utmost best and that is what we have done. Our rejection probably has juridical and financial reasons as we were the not of the same caliber as our large competitors.

    However The Signal de la Grave stays alive and kicking and we will follow the next stages of the procedure very closely and keep you informed!

    Also we will strive to attain our goal: the sustainable development of La Grave. With the funds we have collected we will support other organisations in La Grave in need for financial support. We will also continue to look into other sustainable projects in La Grave.

    Thank you so much for your support!!

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    What happens with the funding monies now? Just curious

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    I take it this: With the funds we have collected we will support other organisations in La Grave in need for financial support. We will also continue to look into other sustainable projects in La Grave.
    Did the last unsatisfied fat soccer mom you took to your mom's basement call you a fascist? -irul&ublo
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