"All weather" tires in place of winter tires

[muted]

"Why do you have those big long wide skis? if you ski real slow and careful, there's no need!"

[galibier_numero_un]

This whole "what's good enough" discussion is basically one of risk tolerance. I absolutely loved my Hakka R2's and if nothing "better" existed, I'd be fine. My sense is that the Hakka 9's (studded) are marginally better on ice although I can't prove it.

How much do you value marginal improvements when sheet metal (and more importantly your life) is at stake?

At the beginning of my second year on my Hakkas (maybe 6k miles on them), I was in a moving parking lot on I-70 around Evergreen and the road was a sheet of ice. We were moving at about 5mph, and my car (4wd Outback) began to lose the tail - sliding left - following the crown in the road. I gunned it gently and barely brought it under control before its tail fell into the adjacent lane.

Would an incremental improvement in ice traction (studs) have helped? Beats me, but I'm going to buy the "insurance".

... Thom

[XXX-er]

I've noticed that up here in the narth with 5 months of winter even people one would label as clueless looking ... will run studs

you can check out 15 yr old Sunfires at the mall and they are running studded tires worth more than the car

How much is yer life worth?

[klauss]

You should see the folks in my burb tool around on studded tires 60+ miles from passes that get snow part of the winter. Lot of suburbans equipped out for maybe 1-5 days a year of use or that one week in sunriver. The rest of the time they're just crop dusting on dry/wet pavement. studded tires do have their place if you actually live at elevation, or get after it a lot.

[AweShuksan]

I've noticed that up here in the narth with 5 months of winter even people one would label as clueless looking ... will run studs

They might not be clueless, maybe they just don't know any better.

It wasn't that long ago that studs were the only thing that worked on ice. Now we have better solutions but old habits die hard.

[HHTELE]

I think I have posted in this thread but Nokian rotiiva AT plus tires are amazing for 3 season Plus. They are 90-95% as good as blizzaks except on glare ice. But they handled great on dry pavement too. Not squirmy like a true winter tire. Obviously they are for trucks. I turned a buddy on to them and he hasn't put his blizzaks on yet this year as they do nearly as well but he also does a lot of commuting

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I am going to second this.
Disclaimer- They are on my truck- our third vehicle. It tows a boat occasionally, acts as a spare, occasionally road trips for paddling, and plows the driveway. I don't do anything with the truck that tests dry road handling- it is a 99 f150 7700.

On dry roads, I don't notice them. My truck drives like a truck.
On dirt, they are surprisingly good. When out scouting ski lines in the woods, I use 4 WD much less than I would expect.

Snow- they rock. I have a steep driveway, no weight in the back of the truck. With these tires, I can plow down hill into a pile of snow knowing I can back right out. I have an icy flat spot that I used to get stuck in with various other tire set ups. Other than chains, these are the only tires I have used. Hard to find any bad reviews online on these.

They are definitely going on my Promaster conversion.
When I get one.

[whyturn]

My Hakka 9 drive pretty good on all all the non snow here in UT

[XXX-er]

They might not be clueless, maybe they just don't know any better.

It wasn't that long ago that studs were the only thing that worked on ice. Now we have better solutions but old habits die hard.

well no my point would be that up narth it seems everybody even the normaly clueless/ possibly broke mount up their studs or good ice radials cuz they know they will need to

While down south the people who should know better and/or can afford real winter tires are trying to get out of spending the money

I been on studded Haks for 17 yars, never tried the studless winters but my assumption is that studded snows will last longer than ice radials due to the compromise on rubber softness to get the ice capability?

[AweShuksan]

I been on studded Haks for 17 yars, never tried the studless winters but my assumption is that studded snows will last longer than ice radials due to the compromise on rubber softness to get the ice capability?

If by "ice radials" you mean "studless winter tires", no, studs will not maintain good winter performance longer than studless. As soon as the studs are worn down a bit their performance drops below a good studless winter tire which maintains it's ice/snow grip better over time. And steel wears faster than rubber, particularly if you don't drive like a granny on bare/wet pavement. Any spirited driving on pavement with studded tires will trash the studs in short order.

There are two reasons so many people still use studs when better options are available for most peoples circumstances:

1) Old habits die hard. Old wives tales live on.

2) It's common sense that studs will work far better, right? The problem with this line of thinking is that, while you can see studs, the technology that allows studless winter tires to grip compact snow and ice is molded invisibly into the rubber. So people who don't know any better think they can't work as well as studs. And yet they are sure they are right because they can see with their own eyes the steel studs in the rubber.

The fact that you've never tried studless winter tires means you will likely be pleasantly surprised when you finally do.

[XXX-er]

https://info.kaltire.com/myths-studded-winter-tires/

So I could believe you or I could believe them^^ ?

[liv2ski]

I do not drive in snow but maybe 20 days a season, but I do drive about 380 miles in each direction both to and from Mammoth, so I need a solid dry pavement performing tire that still has a snowflake symbol on it for when CA Highway Patrol gets crazy with chaining up requirements.

I have always bought the best AS tires based on Tire rack recommendations. I find they are great season 1 and season 2 I need to be more careful as they have about 20k miles on them and less tread depth at that point.

Presently I am on some Hankook Ventus 1 Nobel's that were great season 1 and we shall see for season 2. I previously had great luck with Continental Extreme Contact DWS tires.

[bodywhomper]

I do not drive in snow but maybe 20 days a season, but I do drive about 380 miles in each direction both to and from Mammoth, so I need a solid dry pavement performing tire that still has a snowflake symbol on it for when CA Highway Patrol gets crazy with chaining up requirements.

Is there any indication that Caltrans will ever change how they enforce their rule regarding m/s rating over snowflake rating? I believe the vehicle code would have to be changed.


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[plugboots]

I do not drive in snow but maybe 20 days a season, but I do drive about 380 miles in each direction both to and from Mammoth, so I need a solid dry pavement performing tire that still has a snowflake symbol on it for when CA Highway Patrol gets crazy with chaining up requirements.

I have always bought the best AS tires based on Tire rack recommendations. I find they are great season 1 and season 2 I need to be more careful as they have about 20k miles on them and less tread depth at that point.

Presently I am on some Hankook Ventus 1 Nobel's that were great season 1 and we shall see for season 2. I previously had great luck with Continental Extreme Contact DWS tires.

Funny, I’ve had 3 of those all-seasons in that chart, the Conti DWS, the Bridgestone RE97, and the Serenity Plus. The Conti DWS are far superior to the other two, better in rain and dry but especially better in the snow. I have the last generation of DWS now and apparently the new generation is even better. That said, I only use these for summer & fringe seasons and have used studded Hancooks for winter.

We just switched to X-ice (without studs) for one of the cars and will have to see how those work in snow/ice. They’re light years better than studs on wet concrete/dry.

[TurxSki]

So are Studded tires made with harder, longer-lasting, rubber compound than unstudded Winter tires?
> Re: xxx'ers comments about wear.

Had always assumed Studded would have the same soft, non-durable rubber.

[plugboots]

^^^Depends. On the Hancooks and the Hakk 5’s it was the same exact tire and they would install studs at the shop.
Technology changes, obviously those new studs from Hakkapeliitta sound pretty cool. Go to their site.

[galibier_numero_un]

So are Studded tires made with harder, longer-lasting, rubber compound than unstudded Winter tires?
> Re: xxx'ers comments about wear.

Had always assumed Studded would have the same soft, non-durable rubber.

Somewhere up in this thread, @auvgeek recounted a conversation with the Nokian rep where he learned that their studded Hakka 8's (current model at the time) had a harder, longer wearing rubber and that it was a better solution for places you wouldn't expect them to be (i.e. lots of warm weather down in the flats) and of course, better where you would expect them to be.

This inspired me to switch from the R2's to the studded 9's last month.

... Thom

[XXX-er]

the last few sets of Nokians if not all of them came from the factory already studded and the studs were different than what a tire store would put in your tires, the carbide tip was the same but the barrel of the stud was bigger

[bodywhomper]

^^^Depends. On the Hancooks and the Hakk 5’s it was the same exact tire and they would install studs at the shop.
Technology changes, obviously those new studs from Hakkapeliitta sound pretty cool. Go to their site.

This is the answer, "depends". It's an fairly quick evolving technology at the consumer level, and different brands have different tech and marketing (and cost).

For instance, aside from the nokian tech that is being largely discussed in this thread, there are many "studdable" tires, some are pretty great without the studs, like that generals that many of us are using, and some are not that great, like the mud tires with the nonsiped big studdable blocks.

Eta, if I still lived in socal and regularly did the mammoth drive, it'd put some snowflake rated AT tires on if i had an suv or truck and run them year round or some "all weather" tires that edge more of dry pavement performance (and higher speed rating) like the Nokia WR-series or some others discussed here. If i had space, I'd probably run this only during the season. Driving 395, especially in spring will destroy real winter tires (based on personal experience). You could be driving the desert in 90* ambient temp for a few hundred miles both directions, but in experience true winter road conditions above 5 or 6k ft.

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[sierraskier]

You got some summer tires I can borrow? 235/45/17 (or 225/45/17). That should do it.

Go see my girl (?) Kay at Incline Village Tire Dept

[oldblue]

1) Old habits die hard. Old wives tales live on.

You are making the same mistake that you suggest others are making.

You claim others aren't giving modern premium studless tires a fair chance and that they are so much better than studless tires from years ago. At the same time you seem to be unable to grasp that modern premium studded tires are far superior to studded tires from years ago.

Modern studless tires do an impressive job for sure but as it turns out modern studded tires have seen a few advances over the years and many of your criticisms of them simply no longer apply.

Studs aren't for everyone or every situation but your assertion that studless are king is silly.

[AweShuksan]

You are making the same mistake that you suggest others are making.

The study posted by auvgeek uses a wide cross section of modern studded tires and they came to much the same conclusion that I did.

Studs aren't for everyone or every situation but your assertion that studless are king is silly.

I didn't say "studless are king", in fact, I acknowledged studded tires typically have a little better ice grip (when new) and are good for beginning drivers or those without good winter driving skills. However, the vast majority of good drivers don't need studded tires to safely traverse winter mountain storms due to the excellent traction offered by modern winter tires.

In the same vein I would never say bicycle training wheels don't have a purpose. But they are not a go-to solution for experienced bicyclists. Use the right tool for the job.

[AweShuksan]

This is the answer, "depends". It's an fairly quick evolving technology at the consumer level, and different brands have different tech and marketing (and cost).

For instance, aside from the nokian tech that is being largely discussed in this thread, there are many "studdable" tires, some are pretty great without the studs, like that generals that many of us are using, and some are not that great, like the mud tires with the nonsiped big studdable blocks.

Exactly! And none of the best winter studless tires accept studs. They are designed to not need studs.

[bodywhomper]

Exactly! And none of the best winter studless tires accept studs. They are designed to not need studs.

And how and who defines "best".....?

[bourbonisgood]

And how and who defines "best".....?

Several recent objective studies done on studless tires that looked at acceleration, ice braking, snow braking, cornering, and track times that give lots of #s using the same drivers, same course, same car. That’s about as objective a way to define “Best” as is available. Also how I ended up with Hakka R2s. I researched this to death before buying, even though I’ve been a lifelong studded tire user. Super happy with the R2s so far.

[bodywhomper]

Several recent objective studies done on studless tires that looked at acceleration, ice braking, snow braking, cornering, and track times that give lots of #s using the same drivers, same course, same car. That’s about as objective a way to define “Best” as is available.....

Yep . That is as good of test information that i have found, too. I haven't seen a test that includes some of the other things we are discussing such as non-frozen road handling and wear. Here in California, we'll finally start dealing with deep sludge snow on the roads (fingers crossed).



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