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  1. #101
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    ^^^ Makes sense - where you live (Norway) is much better suited for true winter tires than where I live (the Nevada side of Lake Tahoe).
    Quote Originally Posted by powder11 View Post
    if you have to resort to taking advice from the nitwits on this forum, then you're doomed.

  2. #102
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    Would love to hear your thoughts on the Toyos in snow and wet.
    I currently have all seasons + performance winters for my car which works well but not having to swap would be awesome for my wife's car as those wheels are a lot bigger. I am also waiting for the tire rack review on these in winter conditions, I really like the look of the verdesteins and they are pretty cheap in big sizes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post
    My WR G3’s wore out much faster than I had hoped due to trailer towing, off pavement and AWD.

    Based on a local store’s experience with both the WR G3’s quicker wear and Toyo Celsius’ longer wear, I pulled the trigger on the Celsius. I hope they are as versatile as the WR G3s.

    Also, hopefully this ‘extended shoulder’ season ends this week. I think tooling around on dedicated snows over the past month would have increased the ‘no snow’ angst.

    Happy and Safe Holidays, full of face shots, for all!


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  3. #103
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    I think I have posted in this thread but Nokian rotiiva AT plus tires are amazing for 3 season Plus. They are 90-95% as good as blizzaks except on glare ice. But they handled great on dry pavement too. Not squirmy like a true winter tire. Obviously they are for trucks. I turned a buddy on to them and he hasn't put his blizzaks on yet this year as they do nearly as well but he also does a lot of commuting

    Sent from my VS987 using TGR Forums mobile app

  4. #104
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    1w235
    Last edited by markcjr; 12-24-2017 at 08:33 AM. Reason: Delete

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlh View Post
    Would love to hear your thoughts on the Toyos in snow and wet.
    I currently have all seasons + performance winters for my car which works well but not having to swap would be awesome for my wife's car as those wheels are a lot bigger. I am also waiting for the tire rack review on these in winter conditions, I really like the look of the verdesteins and they are pretty cheap in big sizes.
    I'm also going to reduce width 2cm back to the spec'd 235's vs the installed 255's. In theory this should increase snow capability.

    Consumer reports rates the Celsius at 64 for both the winter/snows (WR G3's also gets a 64) and all season SUV. The $25/yr for consumer reports is easily worth the cost for their perspective on lots of consumer goods.

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    Best regards, Terry
    (Direct Contact is best vs PMs)

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  6. #106
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    Anyone run those Goodyear Viva 3's? Walmart special, but it's a name brand. Ecopea's don't look ridgy and sipy enough.
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

  7. #107
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    I think I'll have to be the guinea pig. They look decent.
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

  8. #108
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    Dec 2017
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    45
    Had a set of Blizzak WS80 and had no problems with them. They have great traction in the snow and ice, though sidewalls are a bit too soft. These Bridgestone tires are quiet on pavement also.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betelgeuse View Post
    Damn, I am so impressed with studless tires as it is, I would probably be blown away by studded!
    Studded winter tires run the gamut from poor to excellent. But even the excellent ones aren't that much better on ice than a good studless winter tire (and there are plenty of winter conditions where a good studless will out-perform the best studded tire). I gave up studs a long time ago due to short life, loudness and poor performance on bare pavement. Studs are good for white-knuckle drivers and beginning snow/ice drivers but rubber technology has come far enough that studs have limited utility for an experienced winter driver. If you need studs to feel safe you probably shouldn't be out there when the roads have ice on them. Studless winter tires offer a surprising amount of black ice grip. I find myself shopping for winter tires that are more biased to bare pavement performance and still find I have all the ice traction I need.

    A very over-looked winter tire for those who spend a good portion of the winter on bare/wet roads is the Goodyear WRT Ultra Grip Ice. Ignore the name because there are plenty of winter tires with better ice performance. What sets these tires apart is that, while they are a dedicated winter tire, they don't have the squirm and greasy feeling of typical winter tires. Their wet pavement performance is better than any all-season and they are quiet and have precise steering. Yet in the snow and ice they will outperform the better all seasons by a huge margin. Because they really are a winter tire. Last spring I thought the tread was getting too shallow for another winter so I left them on through the summer. I noticed they don't get as greasy in hot weather as is so typical of winter tires. Last fall winter hit early in the PNW and I've been using them for another winter. While I do notice the lack of tread depth has affected their performance in slushy snow and deep puddles, I'm amazed that they still grip well on black ice and compact snow/ice. Most winter tires would be toast after driving them through the summer. And they are cheap and last a long time. Really good tires for my situation (driving a lot of bare/wet roads and encountering PNW winter storms on the way to ski areas).

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by AweShuksan View Post
    Studded winter tires run the gamut from poor to excellent. But even the excellent ones aren't that much better on ice than a good studless winter tire (and there are plenty of winter conditions where a good studless will out-perform the best studded tire). I gave up studs a long time ago due to short life, loudness and poor performance on bare pavement.
    Do you have data to back those statements up? The article/study I linked above is the only one I've found, and it's in direct contradiction to what you're saying.
    "Alpine rock and steep, deep powder are what I seek, and I will always find solace there." - Bean Bowers

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  11. #111
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    I'll post up anecdotal comments on my new Hakka 9's if we ever get any snow around these parts this Winter.

    With what little driving on ice and snow I've done to date this year, it's really tough to compare against my retired Hakka R2's, especially since my recent experience of the R2's is obviously of a worn out tire.

    My sense is that they're consistent with the review @auvgeek posted earlier - the 9's being a bit better than the R2s on ice.

    The noise is a bit funny, but I got used to it fairly quickly.

    ... Thom
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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by auvgeek View Post
    Do you have data to back those statements up? The article/study I linked above is the only one I've found, and it's in direct contradiction to what you're saying.
    I don't need data, I've been an active snow/ice driver for over 35 years in my personal vehicles and in work trucks equipped with various types of winter tires. But since you want data, I'll point you back to the study you linked to since it supports many of my claims:

    1) An excellent studded tire is not that much better on ice than a good studless winter tire.
    2) There are plenty of winter conditions in which a good studless winter tire will out perform the best studded tire.
    3) Studded tires are noisy
    4) Studded tires have short life.

    It's important to note that the test you provided used studded tires that were brand new. In my experience, the performance of studded tires falls off VERY quickly with wear and the studs wear very quickly if driven at high speeds on bare pavement. And worn studs will tilt the results more in favor of studless tires because the performance of studless tires does not fall off nearly as quickly as that of worn studs. Even with the testing consisting only of brand new tires, this is one of the conclusions lifted directly from the study you cited. Read the following very carefully and ponder why, after spending thousands of dollars to collect data they came to much the same conclusion that I have:

    "Non-studded tyres are also developing rapidly. We are at a point where the difference in grip between the best non-studded tyres and the weakest studded tyres is more or less non-existent, even on an icy road. Even the most die-hard fans of studs should try them out – the results may be surprising."

    It's because the data in their study largely supports that conclusion (even with brand new studded tires).

    Certainly, if you are ice racing, most, but not all, studded tires will achieve lower lap times, quicker corner speeds and faster acceleration and stopping (if the studs are new). But do you really need to save a few seconds to get to your ski slopes? In all my mountain driving experiences the traffic moves at the speed of the slowest car (unless on a multi-lane highway). Invariably, over half the drivers have all season radials so, from a practical standpoint, any winter tire will put you ahead of the game.

    I'm not trying to talk anyone out of getting studs but I am totally comfortable with studless tires in all winter conditions. A driver that tends to get white knuckles anytime there are icy patches or that doesn't have a smooth driving style might like the extra security provided by the best studded tires. But it's going to be time consuming and expensive maintaining those studs in top form. Because if you don't, a good studless tire will start to outperform the worn studded tire. And therein lies the problem. The real world does not run on data from tests of brand new studs. And you better pick your studded tires carefully because a good studless can outperform studded tires in many conditions (even when the studs are brand new).

    And with new, unworn studs, you will probably want to spend even more money on a stereo that goes to "11" so you can still hear the music. Yes, the studs will quiet down surprisingly quickly when driven on bare highways and the studs dull and flatten but your ice traction will fall off just as fast. Do you have any DATA on THAT? I don't so I just rely on my more than 35 years of real world experience driving through winter snow/ice storms. Sometimes data is over-rated or even misleading when it comes to real world results.
    Last edited by AweShuksan; 01-05-2018 at 02:08 AM.

  13. #113
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    I second the Goodyear WRT Ultra Grip Ice... I run them on my ‘14 WRX and they are money for a winter tire


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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by AweShuksan View Post
    .

    A very over-looked winter tire for those who spend a good portion of the winter on bare/wet roads is the Goodyear WRT Ultra Grip Ice. Ignore the name because there are plenty of winter tires with better ice performance. What sets these tires apart is that, while they are a dedicated winter tire, they don't have the squirm and greasy feeling of typical winter tires. Their wet pavement performance is better than any all-season and they are quiet and have precise steering. Yet in the snow and ice they will outperform the better all seasons by a huge margin. Because they really are a winter tire. Last spring I thought the tread was getting too shallow for another winter so I left them on through the summer. I noticed they don't get as greasy in hot weather as is so typical of winter tires. Last fall winter hit early in the PNW and I've been using them for another winter. While I do notice the lack of tread depth has affected their performance in slushy snow and deep puddles, I'm amazed that they still grip well on black ice and compact snow/ice. Most winter tires would be toast after driving them through the summer. And they are cheap and last a long time. Really good tires for my situation (driving a lot of bare/wet roads and encountering PNW winter storms on the way to ski areas).
    Im going agree with everything AweShuksan says about the Goodyear Ultra Grip Ice. Been running a set for 5 winters on one vehicle. Handle fresh snow and slush very well. Definitely give up a little on true ice to softer squirmy rubbers (like blizzak) but are definitely better on warmer days and on dry roads.
    If I was an urban dweller, predominantly driving dry roads and with a commute to the mountains this would be very high on my list for winter rubber.

  15. #115
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    Looks like nokian has a new version of its passenger all weather tire out. Will consider these for the wagon

    https://www.nokiantires.com/all-weat.../nokian-wr-g4/

    I have a set of the studless Hakkapeliitta R2s on another vehicle and they perform exquisitely.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by klauss View Post
    Looks like nokian has a new version of its passenger all weather tire out. Will consider these for the wagon

    https://www.nokiantires.com/all-weat.../nokian-wr-g4/

    I have a set of the studless Hakkapeliitta R2s on another vehicle and they perform exquisitely.
    That tire looks perfect for my use. I'd run it as a winter tire, and UHP all-seasons for the other 3 seasons.

    Still tooling around Reno/Tahoe on Altimax Arctics, in 45* temps and drizzle... complete waste of a winter tire right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by powder11 View Post
    if you have to resort to taking advice from the nitwits on this forum, then you're doomed.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcpnz View Post
    Im going agree with everything AweShuksan says about the Goodyear Ultra Grip Ice. Been running a set for 5 winters on one vehicle. Handle fresh snow and slush very well. Definitely give up a little on true ice to softer squirmy rubbers (like blizzak) but are definitely better on warmer days and on dry roads.
    If I was an urban dweller, predominantly driving dry roads and with a commute to the mountains this would be very high on my list for winter rubber.
    These Goodyears are appealing to me given 90% of my winter driving is on dry/wet pavement (Vancouver, BC with frequent trips to Whistler). My General Altimax Arctics are on their last legs with maybe 5-6mm depth but it's their 7th winter. They have served me well.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by AweShuksan View Post
    I don't need data, I've been an active snow/ice driver for over 35 years...
    Thanks Mang.
    Your insight is much appreciated

    ...Remember, those who think Global Warming is Fake, also think that Adam & Eve were Real...

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Chupacabra View Post
    That tire looks perfect for my use. I'd run it as a winter tire, and UHP all-seasons for the other 3 seasons.

    Still tooling around Reno/Tahoe on Altimax Arctics, in 45* temps and drizzle... complete waste of a winter tire right now.
    Please go buy some all seasons so it will start snowing.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by AweShuksan View Post
    I don't need data, I've been an active snow/ice driver for over 35 years in my personal vehicles and in work trucks equipped with various types of winter tires. But since you want data, I'll point you back to the study you linked to since it supports many of my claims:

    1) An excellent studded tire is not that much better on ice than a good studless winter tire.
    2) There are plenty of winter conditions in which a good studless winter tire will out perform the best studded tire.
    3) Studded tires are noisy
    4) Studded tires have short life.

    It's important to note that the test you provided used studded tires that were brand new. In my experience, the performance of studded tires falls off VERY quickly with wear and the studs wear very quickly if driven at high speeds on bare pavement. And worn studs will tilt the results more in favor of studless tires because the performance of studless tires does not fall off nearly as quickly as that of worn studs. Even with the testing consisting only of brand new tires, this is one of the conclusions lifted directly from the study you cited. Read the following very carefully and ponder why, after spending thousands of dollars to collect data they came to much the same conclusion that I have:

    "Non-studded tyres are also developing rapidly. We are at a point where the difference in grip between the best non-studded tyres and the weakest studded tyres is more or less non-existent, even on an icy road. Even the most die-hard fans of studs should try them out – the results may be surprising."

    It's because the data in their study largely supports that conclusion (even with brand new studded tires).

    Certainly, if you are ice racing, most, but not all, studded tires will achieve lower lap times, quicker corner speeds and faster acceleration and stopping (if the studs are new). But do you really need to save a few seconds to get to your ski slopes? In all my mountain driving experiences the traffic moves at the speed of the slowest car (unless on a multi-lane highway). Invariably, over half the drivers have all season radials so, from a practical standpoint, any winter tire will put you ahead of the game.

    I'm not trying to talk anyone out of getting studs but I am totally comfortable with studless tires in all winter conditions. A driver that tends to get white knuckles anytime there are icy patches or that doesn't have a smooth driving style might like the extra security provided by the best studded tires. But it's going to be time consuming and expensive maintaining those studs in top form. Because if you don't, a good studless tire will start to outperform the worn studded tire. And therein lies the problem. The real world does not run on data from tests of brand new studs. And you better pick your studded tires carefully because a good studless can outperform studded tires in many conditions (even when the studs are brand new).

    And with new, unworn studs, you will probably want to spend even more money on a stereo that goes to "11" so you can still hear the music. Yes, the studs will quiet down surprisingly quickly when driven on bare highways and the studs dull and flatten but your ice traction will fall off just as fast. Do you have any DATA on THAT? I don't so I just rely on my more than 35 years of real world experience driving through winter snow/ice storms. Sometimes data is over-rated or even misleading when it comes to real world results.
    IME the difference between a good studded tire and a good non-studded tire is about 10-30mph. You can also overtake slowpokes in snowstorms with a lot more confidence. You don't get stuck as much after being plowed in. It's great for lightweight cars. Doing donuts in parking lots is a lot easier too, ha.

    You have a big truck and want to stop on ice with studs? Not gonna make a big difference at higher speeds is my guess with all that weight, but I don't own a truck.

    Going from non-studs to studs is a huge difference for some vehicles, and for drivers that don't sit in the slow lane. It's not for just racers, it's for people who encounter ice A LOT in colder, windy, frigid climates. Ever drive through Island Park in the middle of winter at night? Ever do it over and over? The wind whips snow into an endless amount of black ice, studs are the difference between a white knuckle endless drive and a nice commute.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by gramboh View Post
    These Goodyears are appealing to me given 90% of my winter driving is on dry/wet pavement (Vancouver, BC with frequent trips to Whistler). My General Altimax Arctics are on their last legs with maybe 5-6mm depth but it's their 7th winter. They have served me well.
    I've got somewhere around 28,000 miles on the Goodyear Ultra Grip Ice (including all last summer) and they have worn very evenly and still drive bare pavement better than quality all season radials and still offer a huge advantage on snow and ice (even well worn). A studded tire would be junk by now. I generally shop at the higher price points for tires but these have been a very pleasant surprise at a low price point. Perfect for a skier in a maritime climate. Also, I wouldn't hesitate to use them in a climate that had persistent snow and ice all winter because they offer so much traction on pure ice and compact snow/ice that I'm not worried about the little bit they give up to the most winter focused winter tires. It's worth it for the "normal" feel they give on bare pavement and their exceptional grip in cold rain (yes, compared to other top winter tires). I like to rail the cold wet corners pretty hard and these tires feel like the right tool for the job. Also, about as quiet as your average all-season radial. There's not a lot not to like.

    I use a Mazda CX-5 as my ski car and these tires retain the crisp handling (for a SUV) of my car. This is an advantage on freeways with potential ice because the lack of tread squirm allows a better road feel. I can tell when I'm near the limits of traction by the steering feedback. Previous winter tires had a vague steering feel that tended to mask the early signs of a tire that's not in good contact with the road, having such direct feedback is a real benefit to being able to manage your speed sooner, rather than later.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by muted View Post
    It's not for just racers, it's for people who encounter ice A LOT in colder, windy, frigid climates.
    Studs are also a good idea for drivers lacking in winter driving skills and young/beginning drivers. But the studs have to be kept in good shape to be of ANY benefit. I'm not against studs, it's just that I feel totally comfortable driving icy roads on studless winter tires.

    I did have a white knuckle commute through 700 miles of glaze ice (Eastern Montana, South Dakota, Minnesota) in January 2010 while towing an empty horse trailer behind an F-150. Semi trucks were doing 30 mph on the flat Interstate! My F-150 had crappy A/T tires and the trailer had all-season radials. Don't let anyone tell you A/T tires are a good substitute for real winter tires! I would have sold my left nut for some real winter tires. But, no, I've never had a white knuckle drive with studless winter tires in the last 10 or 15 years. That's how good winter tires have become on icy roads.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by sierraskier View Post
    Please go buy some all seasons so it will start snowing.
    You got some summer tires I can borrow? 235/45/17 (or 225/45/17). That should do it.
    Quote Originally Posted by powder11 View Post
    if you have to resort to taking advice from the nitwits on this forum, then you're doomed.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by AweShuksan View Post
    Studs are also a good idea for drivers lacking in winter driving skills and young/beginning drivers. But the studs have to be kept in good shape to be of ANY benefit. I'm not against studs, it's just that I feel totally comfortable driving icy roads on studless winter tires.

    I did have a white knuckle commute through 700 miles of glaze ice (Eastern Montana, South Dakota, Minnesota) in January 2010 while towing an empty horse trailer behind an F-150. Semi trucks were doing 30 mph on the flat Interstate! My F-150 had crappy A/T tires and the trailer had all-season radials. Don't let anyone tell you A/T tires are a good substitute for real winter tires! I would have sold my left nut for some real winter tires. But, no, I've never had a white knuckle drive with studless winter tires in the last 10 or 15 years. That's how good winter tires have become on icy roads.
    Next you're going to tell us 120 fat skis are unnecessary if you are actually a good skier.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by muted View Post
    Next you're going to tell us 120 fat skis are unnecessary if you are actually a good skier.
    Unnecessary.... :P

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