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  1. #801
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    Quote Originally Posted by optics View Post
    Data point: I ran Hakka R2's and then R3's for years. Got tired of (a) seasonal swaps and (b) really only seeing an advantage for the last 15% of the drive (SF Bay>tahoe, or SF Bay>UT/WY/MT).

    Took a flier and tried the Falken wildpeak A/T trail (not the 3W). They are basically light AT tires, quiet and good handling on dry, but with 3-peak rating. Running them year-round.

    I'm sure there is a marginal difference but I can't feel it. They have been unstoppable in snow and zero issues on ice. And the benefits of being able to run them year-round and off-road in the summer are awesome. Highly endorsed.
    If living in the bay and just driving up to the mountains, I’d agree that a full on winter tire like a Hakka is probably not the best option. However, there are A/T tires that are much better in the snow/ice than the Falken:

    https://m.tirerack.com/tires/tests/t...erResultCharts

    If you can’t tell the difference between the Falken A/T and a Hakka, maybe you need to recalibrate your sensors, or more likely, spend some more time driving in the snow.

  2. #802
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong View Post
    However, there are A/T tires that are much better in the snow/ice than the Falken:

    https://m.tirerack.com/tires/tests/t...erResultCharts

    If you can’t tell the difference between the Falken A/T and a Hakka, maybe you need to recalibrate your sensors, or more likely, spend some more time driving in the snow.
    Sigh. This place is so stupid sometimes.

    I was reporting my experience with a good option, for multiple uses (highway, sand, trails, snow, ice, etc). Not everyone prays at the altar of tire rack testing. And did you see the dry results in that link?

    I would love to spend more time driving in the snow. I have ~30 years behind the wheel, a hell of a lot of 100+ day seasons where I was driving to the hill almost every day (Mt Hood...home to some of the shittiest roads/drivers on the planet in any precip), in shitfuck conditions as often as possible. A few years as a cab driver. A few years in summit county, a few in Montana, a few in the NE. Countless big road trips chasing storms.

    So yeah...I guess your baseless "more likely" assessment of what I need can crawl right back up your shithole, from whence it came.

  3. #803
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    Quote Originally Posted by optics View Post
    Sigh. This place is so stupid sometimes.

    I was reporting my experience with a good option, for multiple uses (highway, sand, trails, snow, ice, etc). Not everyone prays at the altar of tire rack testing. And did you see the dry results in that link?

    I would love to spend more time driving in the snow. I have ~30 years behind the wheel, a hell of a lot of 100+ day seasons where I was driving to the hill almost every day (Mt Hood...home to some of the shittiest roads/drivers on the planet in any precip), in shitfuck conditions as often as possible. A few years as a cab driver. A few years in summit county, a few in Montana, a few in the NE. Countless big road trips chasing storms.

    So yeah...I guess your baseless "more likely" assessment of what I need can crawl right back up your shithole, from whence it came.
    First, apologies, I’ve been in a shitty mood today and that’s coming thru.

    I wouldn’t say I ‘pray at the alter of Tire Rack’, in fact I don’t believe they do the most thorough testing around, however I do believe in looking at data in addition to anecdotes, and sometime you go with the data that’s available.

    However, you said that there may be a marginal difference between the Falken A/T and the Hakka, but that you couldn’t feel it. Data suggests that it’s much more than a marginal difference, and that you should be able to feel it:

    Snow braking:

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    Ice braking:
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    Those are different tests on different vehicles, doesn’t include Hakka, but does include tires that it regularly out performed, but it’s what’s available, and the differences are pretty drastic. And even within the A/T test the difference between tires is more than I’d consider marginal.

    The Falken was best in test in wet/dry, but worst in snow. Every tire has trade-off’s (though some are better all around than others), but if the goal is an A/T tire with standout winter performance the Falken isn’t it. It also doesn’t compare to top performing winter tires.

  4. #804
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    [QUOTE=optics;6746579] (Mt Hood...home to some of the shittiest roads/drivers on the planet in any precip), in shitfuck conditions as often as possible. . [QUOTE=optics;6746579]

    If you are missing the fun the green flag is out!

    https://instagram.com/the_govy500?igshid=MWI4MTIyMDE=
    "Let's be careful out there."

  5. #805
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco View Post
    My better half just purchased an Audi that came with Pirelli Scorpion "Verde" tires. It's headed to the shop this week for some Nokians after driving it home from the dealer in the snow.
    Yeah, I had a Land Rover LR3 on the Verde's. At the time I was spending a lot of time down in the Bay Area. They were just slightly more than adequate. Really bad in slushy conditions.

    If you live in the mountains full time, I just don't see any reason not to be on dedicated snow tires. What does an insurance claim or crash cost, outside the possibility of being injured or injuring somebody else. I easily get 4 winters from Blizzak's. It works out to about $300/yr.

  6. #806
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowaddict91 View Post
    I pulled the trigger on the Outpost ATs. They were a hare cheaper than General Grabber A/Tx and significantly cheaper than Falken AT3w. I'm excited to see how they do.
    Let us know. I have run the ATX (pretty good) and now the AT3W (excellent). No experience with the Oupost.

  7. #807
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong View Post
    First, apologies, I’ve been in a shitty mood today and that’s coming thru.

    I wouldn’t say I ‘pray at the alter of Tire Rack’, in fact I don’t believe they do the most thorough testing around, however I do believe in looking at data in addition to anecdotes, and sometime you go with the data that’s available.

    However, you said that there may be a marginal difference between the Falken A/T and the Hakka, but that you couldn’t feel it. Data suggests that it’s much more than a marginal difference, and that you should be able to feel it:

    Snow braking:

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    Ice braking:
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    Those are different tests on different vehicles, doesn’t include Hakka, but does include tires that it regularly out performed, but it’s what’s available, and the differences are pretty drastic. And even within the A/T test the difference between tires is more than I’d consider marginal.

    The Falken was best in test in wet/dry, but worst in snow. Every tire has trade-off’s (though some are better all around than others), but if the goal is an A/T tire with standout winter performance the Falken isn’t it. It also doesn’t compare to top performing winter tires.
    I wonder how the Falken AT3W would look in that test. I have been very pleased with them on my 8k lb truck. Better than K02, ATX, Duratrac. My test criteria is subjective: did I make it down my driveway without dying? Did I make it up my driveway without walking? Do I get more than 25k miles from a set?

    They are technically a winter tire, outside of having the severe weather rating, but have a 55k treadwear warranty. The regular Wildpeak is not. Still not a Blizzak, but I need a 125r load index for that vehicle.

  8. #808
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    Quote Originally Posted by SnowMachine View Post
    They are technically a winter tire, outside of having the severe weather rating, but have a 55k treadwear warranty.
    Well technically 95mm underfoot was a pow ski for heli skiing... in 1995. Consider the 3PMSF rating for your tire to be the same level of "technically" accurate.

    The Goodyear Wrangler SA was extremely similar to the Falken Wildpeak AT Trail... the tread patterns look nearly identical... some say Falken copied Goodyear.

    I used to run Wrangler SA as my May through November tire... and they were great AT 3PMSF tires... notably more impressive in snow than the KO2. They were All Weather AT before there was that title, just like KO2. AW AT. They sure kicked the crap out of the terrifying-in-snow stock AT tires just like 95mm skis kicked the crap out of 68mm waist in pow.

    Wrangler SAs did decent on snow early season when it was not very cold... but when it got cold they were serviceable-but-mediocre compared to Blizzaks as the rubber hardened.

    On ice, my Blizzaks stopped so much faster, maybe 60% the distance of Wranglers or KO2s, and were much more surefooted.

    If I was in the bay area, I'd buy Falkens or similar.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  9. #809
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong View Post
    First, apologies, I’ve been in a shitty mood today and that’s coming thru.

    I wouldn’t say I ‘pray at the alter of Tire Rack’, in fact I don’t believe they do the most thorough testing around, however I do believe in looking at data in addition to anecdotes, and sometime you go with the data that’s available.

    However, you said that there may be a marginal difference between the Falken A/T and the Hakka, but that you couldn’t feel it. Data suggests that it’s much more than a marginal difference, and that you should be able to feel it:

    Snow braking:

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    Ice braking:
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    Those are different tests on different vehicles, doesn’t include Hakka, but does include tires that it regularly out performed, but it’s what’s available, and the differences are pretty drastic. And even within the A/T test the difference between tires is more than I’d consider marginal.

    The Falken was best in test in wet/dry, but worst in snow. Every tire has trade-off’s (though some are better all around than others), but if the goal is an A/T tire with standout winter performance the Falken isn’t it. It also doesn’t compare to top performing winter tires.

    Dude…how bored are you?

    Yes. They were “worst of 3”. Those 3 possibly being the “best of 100”.

    My point was: even today’s non-winter-specific tires can perform pretty well, well enough for the difference not to be noticeable for a good driver making good decisions.

    If you put yourself in a situation where you’re slamming on the brakes on ice and need to stop in less than 15 feet, you’re probably an idiot and should have been going slower or leaving more space.

    If your main concern is emergency braking you might do well to up your skills/mindset…the best solution to emergency braking is to not get into a situation where you need to do that. It’s kinda like avy gear…your decision making does play a role.

    Also - common sense chiming in here - if you’re in congested enough traffic for a 10–15 foot stopping distance difference to save you, you’re just gonna get hit by the guy behind you when you get that amazing short stop via the tires he doesn’t have.

    In my experience, lots of years,I’ve had exactly one emergency braking situation on snow or ice. RIP the turkey.

  10. #810
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    Quote Originally Posted by SnowMachine View Post
    Let us know. I have run the ATX (pretty good) and now the AT3W (excellent). No experience with the Oupost.
    Welp, I guess the question will remain. Apparently the Outposts are on national backorder in my size, and my local Discount Tire couldn't get a set of AT3Ws in my size anytime soon either. So another set of General ATX it is. Unfortunately I'm in a bind and need tires sooner than later due to multiple flats.

  11. #811
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    It keeps coming back up in this thread: people chiming in that winter compound tires are better in snow and ice vs all-weather tires. Nobody disagrees with this.

    For those who have lots of driving on dry and/or warm condition roads in winter, and also on snow, the all-weather ones (or 3PMSF rated all-terrain tires, if available in the fitment needed for your vehicle) are good choices.

    If you look at tires in the parking lot of your local ski area, you'll see all kinds of stuff. Most people don't pay much attention to their tires. We're geeking out about them here.
    Quote Originally Posted by powder11 View Post
    if you have to resort to taking advice from the nitwits on this forum, then you're doomed.

  12. #812
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Chupacabra View Post
    It keeps coming back up in this thread: people chiming in that winter compound tires are better in snow and ice vs all-weather tires. Nobody disagrees with this.
    It gets tedious, donit? I mean, read the thread title.

    For those who have lots of driving on dry and/or warm condition roads in winter, and also on snow, the all-weather ones (or 3PMSF rated all-terrain tires, if available in the fitment needed for your vehicle) are good choices.
    Yep, ffs.

  13. #813
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    Directed mainly at optic, but really everyone in general:

    I’ve had an unhealthy obsession with tires for like 30 years, so yep, I geek out on this stuff.

    My assumption is that if someone is wondering about all-weather tires vs winter, then they care about performance in snow or ice.

    So, recommending a tire that performs poorly compared to the rest of it’s class in snow/ice seems unhelpful.

    Saying that there’s no discernible difference between that poorly performing A/T tire and a true winter tire seems unhelpful.

    I grew up in Canada and my parents never put winter tires on their cars until us kids were driving - and more precisely, after my brother flipped the car end over end.

    The were driving on all-seasons, in the 80’s, which would suck compared to todays all-season/all-weather tires. And they managed to never have so much as a fender bender while doing it.

    So yes, it possible to use worse tires and just be extra cautious. Is that all everyone coming into this thread is hoping to hear?

  14. #814
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    I think the simpler thought is that modern tires are fairly refined to the point where usually there are only minor differences between models WITHIN tire classes such that price is the better decider.

    The difference BETWEEN tire classes is still remarkably stark, so snow tires still massively outperform all weather. Studs are remarkably better on ice than studless. Can all weather get you by in snow, usually! Can studless get you by in ice, usually! Are true snows (and AT) typically worse at hydroplaning than all weather/season, usually! Are real winter compound tires always going to perform worse and wear faster than all weather/AT, absolutely on dry pavement above 40/50F.

    The right tool is always going to be significantly to massively better in intended conditions.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  15. #815
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    "All weather" tires in place of winter tires

    Quote Originally Posted by summit View Post
    I think the simpler thought is that modern tires are fairly refined to the point where usually there are only minor differences between models WITHIN tire classes such that price is the better decider.

    The difference BETWEEN tire classes is still remarkably stark, so snow tires still massively outperform all weather. Studs are remarkably better on ice than studless. Can all weather get you by in snow, usually! Can studless get you by in ice, usually! Are true snows (and AT) typically worse at hydroplaning than all weather/season, usually! Are real winter compound tires always going to perform worse and wear faster than all weather/AT, absolutely on dry pavement above 40/50F.

    The right tool is always going to be significantly to massively better in intended conditions.
    Well said. We have a car with cheap snow tires, a van with Blizzaks, and a truck with 3pmsf all terrains.

    Are the Blizzaks slightly better than the cheap snow tires, probably. But in the real world there isn't much difference.

    And of course the snow tired vehicles perform better than the truck with all terrains. But to say the truck with all terrains isn't safe to drive in the snow would be silly.

  16. #816
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    Anyone here running Arctic Claw WXI's? Did a search of this thread and didn't find any results. I live somewhere where I drive on snow for 4+ months of the year so going full dedicated snows for the first time in a while. For my f150 w/20" rims I was quoted about $300 less than Blizzaks and they seem to be decently reviewed.
    Last edited by ASmileyFace; 12-09-2022 at 12:18 PM.

  17. #817
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASmileyFace View Post
    Anyone here running Arctic Claw WXI's? Did a search of this thread and didn't find anything results. I live somewhere where I drive on snow for 4+ months of the year so going full dedicated snows for the first time in a while. For my f150 w/20" rims I was quoted about $300 less than Blizzaks and they seem to be decently reviewed.
    Wrong thread, jong.
    https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...ecommendations

  18. #818
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper View Post
    I knew there was a winter tire thread... but of course it's in the forum I never check.

    Thanks

  19. #819
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowaddict91 View Post

    Are the Blizzaks slightly better than the cheap snow tires, probably. But in the real world there isn't much difference.
    Agreed. Wife has top end Hakkas on her CR-V and I have General Grabber Arctics on my Tacoma. If there is a difference, I can't tell, and I can tell an immediate difference between summer and winter tires on both in the snow.

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