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  1. #5551
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    Add me to the list of those who will no longer drool when they see a Routt 45 for sale.

    I'll buy my new bicycles from brands that don't make mopeds, thank you very much.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  2. #5552
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    Jun 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tailwind View Post
    Interesting comment from John in response to the moots e bike on the Radavist:

    ďThe biggest, most upsetting thing is because of all the direct-to-consumer/trash heap Class II e-bikes out there, liability insurance has skyrocketed for small framebuilders. The average price of liability insurance has risen $2000 a year - all because of e-bike lawsuits.ď

    I kinda take his word for this one and if itís true thatís kinda a bummer.
    A bunch of carriers have dropped bike shops for property and liability as well, and the remainders have boosted rates.



    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  3. #5553
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    Quote Originally Posted by joetron View Post
    A bunch of carriers have dropped bike shops for property and liability as well, and the remainders have boosted rates.

    TGR Forums[/url]
    Ö thatís terrible and upsettingÖ

    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    Add me to the list of those who will no longer drool when they see a Routt 45 for sale.

    I'll buy my new bicycles from brands that don't make mopeds, thank you very much.
    Agree 100%. Moots had an allure thatís gone. Iíve looked at a Womble as an aspirational bike.

  4. #5554
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    Jul 2016
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    Biggest threat to access in my neck of the woods is the building of illegal trails by "cyclists". These trails generally suck, do substantial environmental damage, have poor drainage, initiate excessive erosion, and generally breed mistrust from land managers. There have been surprisingly little push back as ebikes gain more and more rider share. I ride in area that is hyper sensitive to biker-hiker-horse issues. Generally ebikers are older, well experienced riders that are polite and follow trail etiquette. They are usually the ones laughing and smiling because they are having so much fun. Class 1 EBikes are only really faster on the ups and even then your rarely climbing any faster than 8 mph. Not what I would call a motorized menace on the trails. The real menace is on the paved bike trails and the popularity of those Class 2 throttle machines ridden by teenagers.

    Evan you really need to get that motor stick out of your ass and relax your sphincter, better for you. Can we talk about gentrification of the Carson Minden Valley now?

  5. #5555
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    Mar 2008
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    northern BC
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    yeah at the local area the govy guy/ girl walks the area with the paid association rep who is also the paid rep at the XC ski area.
    All design is done to the whistler bike park standard which then makes it pretty certain the provincial gov is gona give out the money,

    the trails have drainage, there is grass planted on the side of the trail to deal with erosion

    a contracter gets paid to builds trail with a mini hoe, this year it was 80 K worth of banked flow ... its awesume eh
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  6. #5556
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    Sep 2005
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    Fresh Lake City
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tailwind View Post
    Interesting comment from John in response to the moots e bike on the Radavist:

    ďThe biggest, most upsetting thing is because of all the direct-to-consumer/trash heap Class II e-bikes out there, liability insurance has skyrocketed for small framebuilders. The average price of liability insurance has risen $2000 a year - all because of e-bike lawsuits.ď

    I kinda take his word for this one and if itís true thatís kinda a bummer.
    Is likely true, but I believe Moots is a paid advertiser at the Radavist and no one bites the hand that feeds.

    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    Add me to the list of those who will no longer drool when they see a Routt 45 for sale.

    I'll buy my new bicycles from brands that don't make mopeds, thank you very much.
    I hear ya and jax summed up a lot of my thoughts on moots entering the e-bike game. Itís just a huge departure from what the brand represented for so many and thatís sad. They had carved out a nice niche in the hardtail mtb / gravel bike market despite the cost of entryÖ

    But also when you say you wonít buy a new bike from a company that also makes mopedsÖ. How many bike brands havenít gotten into the e-bike business? It might be hard to find a bike with that attitude in a few years.

  7. #5557
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    Oct 2005
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    Sandy
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    Quote Originally Posted by brutah View Post
    Is likely true, but I believe Moots is a paid advertiser at the Radavist and no one bites the hand that feeds.

    I hear ya and jax summed up a lot of my thoughts on moots entering the e-bike game. It’s just a huge departure from what the brand represented for so many and that’s sad. They had carved out a nice niche in the hardtail mtb / gravel bike market despite the cost of entry…

    But also when you say you won’t buy a new bike from a company that also makes mopeds…. How many bike brands haven’t gotten into the e-bike business? It might be hard to find a bike with that attitude in a few years.
    From the website:

    Moots are known to be hardcore cyclists, why ebike?
    We are hardcore cyclists who look at every bike with a sharp eye and try not to be overly judgemental about how they are used or who they are for. We have seen the shift from our side of the industry of opening up access to more people riding bikes from bringing forward the technology of pedal assist platforms. As pioneers and current industry leaders of gravel bikes we knew we could make a top tier performance gravel ebike for people to enjoy of all abilities. Our mission became simple: create a gravel ebike that compliments our current gravel family and allows more users to experience the joy of riding on low traffic roads and exploring new terrain. We spent over two years designing and engineering the Express, we have been riding some form of the Express since the fourth quarter of 2022, and now are at the point where we are ready to share our outcome with existing Moots family along with many new to Moots customers.
    When life gives you haters, make haterade.

  8. #5558
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    Dec 2007
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    www.apriliaforum.com

    "If the road You followed brought you to this,of what use was the road"?

    "I have no idea what I am talking about but would be happy to share my biased opinions as fact on the matter. "
    Ottime

  9. #5559
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    Apr 2008
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    Back in here to confirm that sadly, the only place I ever see real Ebike hate is teh TGRz. And the general sense is that people resent someone else is having a similar experience without having to work as hard for it. Usually combined with hating an entire group because they dress wrong and act wrong.
    Itís the recurring sentiment of ďIím gonna punch em in the faceĒ or ďIím calling the cops on them!Ē thatís the most disheartening.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    However many are in a shit ton.

  10. #5560
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    Quote Originally Posted by jm2e View Post
    Back in here to confirm that sadly, the only place I ever see real Ebike hate is teh TGRz. And the general sense is that people resent someone else is having a similar experience without having to work as hard for it. Usually combined with hating an entire group because they dress wrong and act wrong.
    Itís the recurring sentiment of ďIím gonna punch em in the faceĒ or ďIím calling the cops on them!Ē thatís the most disheartening.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    I barely pay attention to the ebike issue, but I'm on a few large Facebook biking groups and ebike hate is a regular part of the conversation there. It definitely isn't just the TRGs.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin
    "everybody's got their hooks into you, fuck em....forge on motherfuckers, drag all those bitches across the goal line with you." - (not so) ill-advised strategy

  11. #5561
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    Quote Originally Posted by jm2e View Post
    Back in here to confirm that sadly, the only place I ever see real Ebike hate is teh TGRz.
    Well, there are some little niche places like pinkbike where ebikes get a lot of hate. And by niche, I mean the biggest mountain bike site in the world.

  12. #5562
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    Fresh Lake City
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    I donít hate e-bikes. They have allowed my 70+ year old dad to keep biking. Iím probably more in the ďdonít careĒ camp, except for when I get passed on the trail by a moped.

  13. #5563
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    Aug 2010
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    Park City
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    When was the last time a bike brand was improved by an infusion of venture capital money? Fisher became Gary Fisher and died. I have a DiamondBack overdrive carbon comp I would love to replace with a similar bike that made you feel you got a high value xc bike, but they donít make it. I could go through a history of defeats. Where is there a victory?

  14. #5564
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canada1 View Post
    When was the last time a bike brand was improved by an infusion of venture capital money? Fisher became Gary Fisher and died. I have a DiamondBack overdrive carbon comp I would love to replace with a similar bike that made you feel you got a high value xc bike, but they donít make it. I could go through a history of defeats. Where is there a victory?
    Pon bought Santa Cruz, and that seems to be working out pretty well.

    But for the most part, a lot of those cash infusions came when a brand was already struggling. More often than not, they continued to struggle after the infusion. Tons of brands that got big in mountain biking's glory days but were mismanaged and couldn't innovate enough to survive the low years.

  15. #5565
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    Much of our local e-bike hate stems from the sidewalks and tourist riding their rental bikes like they stole them. Right or wrong this hate meshes into the trail issue with them. Personally, I am OK with them, but there are specific trails in most places where bikes are already an issue. If you add more bikers, who don't care about the local repercussions, the setback for the locals would be permanent. Because of this just calling them bikes is a no-go for many communities. I bet that much of the Mountain West is the same.

    Currently, Montana classifies them the same as motorcycles. That doesn't work, but like it or not a user breaks the law when riding their e-bike on a nonmotorized trail. Anytime someone blatantly violates the law, people will get pissed. Ebikers, as a user group, need to understand that this is a specific issue to their chosen tools for enjoyment. being defensive when people point the finger at you for breaking the law does nothing to help YOUR cause. I would suggest getting involved with the organizations that help drive the policy instead of getting mad at them for not making it how you want it. Like anything in life, asking others to do your dirty work likely won't get you where you want to end up.

    Sorry, Canadians, your experiences don't really matter here. In the States, being a trail user comes with entitlement. Everyone here thinks they are entitled to have the trail for themselves... For what it's worth, the only time I have gotten dirty looks from other bikers while legally e-biking was in British Columbia.
    a positive attitude will not solve all of your problems, but it may annoy enough people to make it worth the effort

    Formerly Rludes025

  16. #5566
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canada1 View Post
    When was the last time a bike brand was improved by an infusion of venture capital money? Fisher became Gary Fisher and died. I have a DiamondBack overdrive carbon comp I would love to replace with a similar bike that made you feel you got a high value xc bike, but they don’t make it. I could go through a history of defeats. Where is there a victory?


    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    Pon bought Santa Cruz, and that seems to be working out pretty well.

    But for the most part, a lot of those cash infusions came when a brand was already struggling. More often than not, they continued to struggle after the infusion. Tons of brands that got big in mountain biking's glory days but were mismanaged and couldn't innovate enough to survive the low years.
    It's just like bike shops. A lot of people get into ownership because it's a passion of theirs. That doesn't mean it is a good financial decision. In my experience, the venture capitalists that invest in the industry are no different. They take a chance because they love bikes. Eventually, the people they pay to love the money say, see I told you this was a dumb Idea.

    I would argue the purchase of Fisher by Trek was a success for everyone except those who lost their dealerships. Gary Fisher made a lot of money, Trek got a brand that they could test things on with Gary Fisher and his ideas on board (in the beginning). They were at the forefront of 29ers going mainstream. Eventually, those bikes started saying Trek on them instead of Gary Fisher because it was easier for the marketing department. The knowledge and market share gained by that purchase has worked out very well for Trek. Bontrager on the other hand...
    a positive attitude will not solve all of your problems, but it may annoy enough people to make it worth the effort

    Formerly Rludes025

  17. #5567
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    northern BC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eluder View Post
    Sorry, Canadians, your experiences don't really matter here. In the States, being a trail user comes with entitlement. Everyone here thinks they are entitled to have the trail for themselves... For what it's worth, the only time I have gotten dirty looks from other bikers while legally e-biking was in British Columbia.
    Hate is so American eh, they probably read something on an american site that tells them to hate e-bikes

    I asked the paid association guy and the builders on their E-bikes if it was ok and should i get one and they said yes
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  18. #5568
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    Oct 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eluder View Post
    like it or not a user breaks the law when riding their e-bike on a nonmotorized trail. Anytime someone blatantly violates the law, people will get pissed. Ebikers, as a user group, need to understand that this is a specific issue to their chosen tools for enjoyment. being defensive when people point the finger at you for breaking the law does nothing to help YOUR cause. I would suggest getting involved with the organizations that help drive the policy instead of getting mad at them for not making it how you want it.
    This.

    Also, yeah, Pinkbike commenters hate mopeds even more than we do.

    It is becoming pretty hard to find a manufacturer that only makes bicycles these days. I got all excited about Pyga at one point, but learned that they had a moped prototype. I have less of a problem with Moots since they are making a moped for gravel, which avoids the only real problem I have with them: poaching. Obviously if you're riding on roads, using a motor is fine.

    In other news, trail conditions here are the best they have been all year, and everyone seems to have gone home/given up on riding. I had a wonderfully deserted ride on some brown pow yesterday. The sky hasn't fallen, yet.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  19. #5569
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    Oct 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    Also, yeah, Pinkbike commenters hate mopeds even more than we do.
    To be fair, people hate everything over there. It's depressing at times.
    a positive attitude will not solve all of your problems, but it may annoy enough people to make it worth the effort

    Formerly Rludes025

  20. #5570
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    Mar 2008
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    northern BC
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    I've read good E-bike on pinkbike, its American so of course the hate

    but there are the haters on NSMB,
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  21. #5571
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    I've read good E-bike on pinkbike, its American so of course the hate

    but there are the haters on NSMB,
    Pinkbike is Canadian. They're in Squamish.

    Although I guess they're technically owned by Outside now, so their overlords are American

  22. #5572
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    northern BC
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    yes exactly ^^ I also thot they were Canadian but I checked & goggle sez otherwise

    Cuz I had dinner with some pinkbiker back in the day when I was Chauffeuring Lee Lau in an epic pow event

    I didnt really pay much attention at the time cuz who cares about some guys writing about mtn biking ?
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  23. #5573
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    Nov 2009
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    CA
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    2,855
    Quote Originally Posted by Eluder View Post
    Much of our local e-bike hate stems from the sidewalks and tourist riding their rental bikes like they stole them. Right or wrong this hate meshes into the trail issue with them. Personally, I am OK with them, but there are specific trails in most places where bikes are already an issue. If you add more bikers, who don't care about the local repercussions, the setback for the locals would be permanent. Because of this just calling them bikes is a no-go for many communities. I bet that much of the Mountain West is the same.

    Currently, Montana classifies them the same as motorcycles. That doesn't work, but like it or not a user breaks the law when riding their e-bike on a nonmotorized trail. Anytime someone blatantly violates the law, people will get pissed. Ebikers, as a user group, need to understand that this is a specific issue to their chosen tools for enjoyment. being defensive when people point the finger at you for breaking the law does nothing to help YOUR cause. I would suggest getting involved with the organizations that help drive the policy instead of getting mad at them for not making it how you want it. Like anything in life, asking others to do your dirty work likely won't get you where you want to end up.

    Sorry, Canadians, your experiences don't really matter here. In the States, being a trail user comes with entitlement. Everyone here thinks they are entitled to have the trail for themselves... For what it's worth, the only time I have gotten dirty looks from other bikers while legally e-biking was in British Columbia.
    This points up that e-bike issues are pretty local.

    California has no similar law as Montana - that's pretty nuts honestly that they are classified the same as motorcycles, a fully street-legal vehicle. I've heard that in the desert zones of Utah, ebikes are like a Scarlet A. I've heard similar things about Whistler. Meanwhile in Europe...

    In North Lake Tahoe/Truckee, there simply aren't many ebike issues (except on paved pathways where there are kids, dogs, and the old and grumpy play). We've got so many trails that it's pretty rare to see people, unless you're only riding the most popular trails. The Tahoe National Forest has made incorporating Class 1 ebikes into new trail designations a priority. They may be on the leading edge of that effort.

    I'm sure the issue is very different in more urbanized and heavily used areas like the Bay Area and the Carson Valley (apparently).

    I've also found that many trailbuilders use ebikes (we sure do) because, well, they make it easier.

    Anecdotally, like much in life, it seems the loudest voices are the ones that invest the least in constructing, maintaining, and obtaining approvals for trails. Toast and other exceptions aside.
    sproing!

  24. #5574
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    Quote Originally Posted by meter-man View Post
    I've also found that many trailbuilders use ebikes (we sure do) because, well, they make it easier.
    Ebikes are awesome for trail work. It's the main thing I use mine for these days. Super nice to cruise into the work zone with a big pack while expending minimal effort.

    We've been talking about getting our paid trail crew a few ebikes for years now, but it's not easy to conjure up $15-20k for a moped budget, especially when they can only use them on maybe 30-40% of the trails they're working on.

  25. #5575
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    Mar 2008
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    northern BC
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    up here the gov park guys are using the cheapest Giant hardtails ( cost 3K )to get into the park on the jeep trail, the parkie I know said he thot is was a bad idea until he did it once and then he thot it was a really good idea , saves him a 10K hike every day but thats the only place they ride them, so no single track

    the guys at the area have FS e-bikes one of them is towing a bob trailer
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

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