Anyone have anything they'd like to rant about?

[chicken feathers]

So what you saying is all the newly minted retiree wfh and assorted new wave mountain trash w money all buy there local cred by using certain brands

Make a mellazana on that list

NGL, the last few years I’ve been a little suspicious of anyone wearing a fresh new melly.

They must have been included w/ the blundstones, berner pup, and mandolin as a part of the wfh relocation incentive.

[rideit]

OK, so I had one of these in ‘00. (I was a Moots dealer).

It was kind of like a relationship I was in in college.
So gorgeous, so high maintenance, but basically rode like crap. .

[skaredshtles]

OK, so I had one of these in ‘00. (I was a Moots dealer).

It was kind of like a relationship I was in in college.
So gorgeous, so high maintenance, but basically rode like crap. .

Yeah - that's the one where everyone seemed to just roll their eyes when someone mentioned Moots.

[rideit]

I sold it in two months. It was honestly so flexy it was scary stuffing into turns. And noisy as hell.
But good god, those welds…staring at it in the living room was like pornhub.

[Spats]

Contrary to all the posturing and invective here:

I have never seen a throttle bike on any singletrack trail in Tahoe.

I've seen many, many ebikes on singletrack. About 30% of the bikes I see on the trail are ebikes. The % goes up each year. But they're all regular mountain bike brand ebikes, with regular mountain bike riders on them.

I see throttle bikes all the time on the local paved bike paths. Everything from Aventons to those dumb motorcycle-style things with tiny fat tires and a scrambler seat that you couldn't pedal even if you wanted to. Hoverboards, uniboards, those Lime rental scooters, whatever. But I've literally never seen any of them on singletrack.

I've only seen a couple Surrons. One on the road, one on the trail in my area that's actually motorcycle legal.

Here's my rant:

Really no one but a few crusty old farts that rant all day on message boards actually cares about Class 1 ebikes. (Pedal assist only and <750W, for those not reading closely. Literally every ebike sold in a bike shop.) All you're doing is being counterproductive to the cause of bicycle access, by making the same mistake IMBA and every other self-appointed "bicycle advocacy" group has made for the past 30 years, which is to spend more time fighting other cyclists than fighting for access. "Surely if we just OBEY THE LAW HARDER the Sierra Club and USFS will see that we're Really Good People, and they'll stop hating us and let us have some trails!"

This doesn't work and has never worked...for anyone seeking change anywhere, not just cyclists.
Notice how every single recreation interest group got their carveouts in the last wilderness bill, except cyclists? Climbers, even hang gliders...everyone except us. Why? IMBA tried to Obey Harder instead of actually fighting for access, and we lost huge, and we won't get another chance until a lot of us are dead.

The Sierra Clubbers and rich equestrians and HOHAs hate you and want you removed. Even the ones that are 80+, use a walker, and can't even access singletrack, still hate you and want you removed.
They don't care that you ride an acoustic bike. They hate bicycles and they hate you, period, full stop. They will never stop fighting us, no matter how much we beg and scrape and obey. They will NEVER, EVER decide to give you trail access because you were a Good Person and opposed those darn dirty ebikers.

So yeah, all you anti-ebikers are doing is setting back the cause of bicycle access for everyone.
Ranting about Surrons? Sure. About those dumb scrambler "ebikes" that are just motorcycles with pedals, and are way too powerful to be legal anyway? Sure. They roost and mess up trails. Throttles and 4+ HP do that.

But if you think Class 1 legal ebikes are a problem, YOU are the problem.

[Andeh]

Spats speaking the truth.

[XXX-er]

Contrary to all the posturing and invective here:

I have never seen a throttle bike on any singletrack trail in Tahoe.

I've seen many, many ebikes on singletrack. About 30% of the bikes I see on the trail are ebikes. The % goes up each year. But they're all regular mountain bike brand ebikes, with regular mountain bike riders on them.

I see throttle bikes all the time on the local paved bike paths. Everything from Aventons to those dumb motorcycle-style things with tiny fat tires and a scrambler seat that you couldn't pedal even if you wanted to. Hoverboards, uniboards, those Lime rental scooters, whatever. But I've literally never seen any of them on singletrack.

cool, a rant on the anti-E-bike ranters, so this ^^ is pretty accurate IME

You gotta have the mtnbike skills on singletrack, the throttle bikes are just too big/ too heavy which just magnifys a riders lack of the skills needed even worse

so IME I don't see throttle bikes on real single track mtnbike trails

if you do see those throttle bikes maybe what you are riding is not a real mtn bike trail ?

[brutah]

Industry Nine hubs are overrated. I've got hydra hubs on one of my bikes, less than 1000 miles / a year on the bike. I've already had to replace the bearings and yesterday while bleeding my brakes, I discovered the rear axle was snapped. I've never had so many issues with hubs as I have with these hydras. I'll take less engagement next time if it means I don't have to repair the hubs once or twice a season.

[rideit]

DTSwiss 240 FTW

[Roxtar]

At 63 and still racing the occasional enduro, I wouldn't consider a moped (Well, maybe for townie use).
However, I've given myself the right to reconsider in 7 years.

[toast2266]

Contrary to all the posturing and invective here:

I have never seen a throttle bike on any singletrack trail in Tahoe.

I've seen many, many ebikes on singletrack. About 30% of the bikes I see on the trail are ebikes. The % goes up each year. But they're all regular mountain bike brand ebikes, with regular mountain bike riders on them.

I see throttle bikes all the time on the local paved bike paths. Everything from Aventons to those dumb motorcycle-style things with tiny fat tires and a scrambler seat that you couldn't pedal even if you wanted to. Hoverboards, uniboards, those Lime rental scooters, whatever. But I've literally never seen any of them on singletrack.

I've only seen a couple Surrons. One on the road, one on the trail in my area that's actually motorcycle legal.

Here's my rant:

Really no one but a few crusty old farts that rant all day on message boards actually cares about Class 1 ebikes. (Pedal assist only and <750W, for those not reading closely. Literally every ebike sold in a bike shop.) All you're doing is being counterproductive to the cause of bicycle access, by making the same mistake IMBA and every other self-appointed "bicycle advocacy" group has made for the past 30 years, which is to spend more time fighting other cyclists than fighting for access. "Surely if we just OBEY THE LAW HARDER the Sierra Club and USFS will see that we're Really Good People, and they'll stop hating us and let us have some trails!"

This doesn't work and has never worked...for anyone seeking change anywhere, not just cyclists.
Notice how every single recreation interest group got their carveouts in the last wilderness bill, except cyclists? Climbers, even hang gliders...everyone except us. Why? IMBA tried to Obey Harder instead of actually fighting for access, and we lost huge, and we won't get another chance until a lot of us are dead.

The Sierra Clubbers and rich equestrians and HOHAs hate you and want you removed. Even the ones that are 80+, use a walker, and can't even access singletrack, still hate you and want you removed.
They don't care that you ride an acoustic bike. They hate bicycles and they hate you, period, full stop. They will never stop fighting us, no matter how much we beg and scrape and obey. They will NEVER, EVER decide to give you trail access because you were a Good Person and opposed those darn dirty ebikers.

So yeah, all you anti-ebikers are doing is setting back the cause of bicycle access for everyone.
Ranting about Surrons? Sure. About those dumb scrambler "ebikes" that are just motorcycles with pedals, and are way too powerful to be legal anyway? Sure. They roost and mess up trails. Throttles and 4+ HP do that.

But if you think Class 1 legal ebikes are a problem, YOU are the problem.

I don't have any problem with class 1 ebikes. I think they should be allowed most, but not all, places that pedal bike are allowed.

But regardless they're a different thing than mountain bikes. It's not my job as an advocate for mountain bikes to also advocate for ebikes just because they're similar-ish. I'm not gonna advocate against them (except for those few places where I don't think they should be allowed), but I'm not gonna carry their water.

If ebikers spent half the time advocating for themselves instead of bitching about how mountain bikers aren't advocating for them enough, maybe they'd get something done.

[Andeh]

OK, this last weekend I was up at Northstar with some friends, and one of them fucked up a drop, and literally landed on his head on those diamond paver blocks. And he doesn't want to replace the helmet... "it's barely banged up." I get it, they're expensive, but a lot cheaper than brain damage.

[XXX-er]

I don't have any problem with class 1 ebikes. I think they should be allowed most, but not all, places that pedal bike are allowed.

But regardless they're a different thing than mountain bikes. It's not my job as an advocate for mountain bikes to also advocate for ebikes just because they're similar-ish. I'm not gonna advocate against them (except for those few places where I don't think they should be allowed), but I'm not gonna carry their water.

If ebikers spent half the time advocating for themselves instead of bitching about how mountain bikers aren't advocating for them enough, maybe they'd get something done.

anything with 2 wheels looks very similarish to a raving enviromentalist who wants to get rid of anything with wheels in the BC, they don't know/ don't care what the difference is cuz anything with 2 wheels is the antichrist

including e-bikes in your numbers under your advocacy is to your benifit when you present to the people who give out stuff to the stakeholders

[toast2266]

including e-bikes in your numbers under your advocacy is to your benifit when you present to the people who give out stuff to the stakeholders

That's a very Canadian perspective.

Go to a meeting with some American land managers and then come talk to me about what a boon ebikes are to the cause.

[Tailwind]

It seems like one of the big dividing lines in cycling these days are people who use the term “acoustic bike”.

To me regular bikes are just “bikes” and the term “acoustic bike” is a bit of a dog whistle that someone looks at things differently than I do.

Class 1 e bikes are similar enough to bikes that they can use the term “electric bike” and this makes sense. It’s kinda like a bike… but you’ve added a motor so it’s kinda it’s own thing IE “electric bike”.

It seems like the crowd that uses “acoustic bike” as a common term wants to use the definition that anything with pedals is a bicycle. I get why we have this used for some legislation and think that makes sense as it allows e-bikes to use bike lanes and paths.

But… the moment you’re adding a motor, to me, it’s not a “bike”. It becomes something different. Not bad… but it’s a new category. Trying to carve out categories within bikes of acoustic, class 1, class 2 etc is nonsensical. The first dividing line isn’t power or a throttle… it’s “does it have a motor?”

There are “bikes” which are things you pedal without assistance.

Then there are Motorized vehicles can be similar to bikes… but they’re not bikes.

[climberevan]

I don't have any problem with class 1 ebikes. I think they should be allowed most, but not all, places that pedal bike are allowed.

But regardless they're a different thing than mountain bikes. It's not my job as an advocate for mountain bikes to also advocate for ebikes just because they're similar-ish. I'm not gonna advocate against them (except for those few places where I don't think they should be allowed), but I'm not gonna carry their water.

If ebikers spent half the time advocating for themselves instead of bitching about how mountain bikers aren't advocating for them enough, maybe they'd get something done.

That's a very Canadian perspective.

Go to a meeting with some American land managers and then come talk to me about what a boon ebikes are to the cause.

X2 on all of this.

Bicycles do not have motors (according to USFS and logic). E-bikes whose motors are actuated by pedaling are a new thing and they look a bit like bicycles and have the same brands on the downtube, but they are definitely not bicycles. Their riders are not cyclists (unless they also ride bicycles).

My issue with mopeds is that they are motorized, and the riders are poaching trails that are designated as non-motorized. This has and will increasingly jeopardize current and future access for bicycles. We fought long and hard to get that access, and it was predicated on NON-MOTORIZED use.

Moped enthusiasts can advocate for themselves and make their own arguments.

[XXX-er]

well in any case a bike is a bike so you are stuck with them

localy we are waiting for the hikers who are 70+ to die off so the mtnbikers can take over their tenure

[hick]

well in any case a bike is a bike so you are stuck with them

localy we are waiting for the hikers who are 70+ to die off so the mtnbikers can take over their tenure

Unfortunately, I think there is some truth to this. I’ve never been yelled at on my bike by someone under 60ish. Although I’m sure we’ll have a new crop of wildernuts come up who hate all things wheeled.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[toast2266]

localy we are waiting for the hikers who are 70+ to die off so the mtnbikers can take over their tenure

Yeah, same here. It'll be nice when the crusty old folks are out of the picture, although I'm sure there will be young, increasingly crusty folks to take their place.

For us locally, angry hikers seem to be replenishing, but the angry horse crowd seems to be legitimately dying off.

[Jax]

So what you saying is all the newly minted retiree wfh and assorted new wave mountain trash w money all buy there local cred by using certain brands

Make a mellazana on that list

And fuck mtn towns fuck all these people who got here after me there posturing and posing

It was a bit tongue-in-cheek sure. I'm not bagging on anybody that gets here after me (well, mostly anyway), we all come from somewhere. Admittedly, it's been a bit jarring the past few years as the change went from gradual to 'fuck you in your face this is the new reality and accept it now' kind-of-way. Ikon + Covid forced a very quick adaptation.

And it's one thing to support local companies, shop local, all that. But I do have to chuckle at the newbies who look like a starter pack meme; Grass Sticks poles, ugly Big Agnes puffies, Harvest Skis, vanity plates that include the county code WZ (like Aspen's ZG) even though the dealer badge on back of car came from Denver or fuckistan. They also have Steamboat Resort/<insert local brewery> /970/Hala stickers on their car. Nobody is humble anymore about the privilege of living in a mtn town, it's so much in-your-face.

And to clarify on a separate note, I am not against e-bikes or getting more ppl on bikes, especially those with disabilities or aging. Like I said, I will hopefully and gladly use one at one point down the road.

The hate stems from the majority of e-bike users' total ignorance to cycling ethics, rules of the road, and some outward knowingly breaking the rules as to where they (currently) can or cannot go. Similar to the new wave of campers that leave litter and shit everywhere, they just don't give a damn. Nor do most of them seem to care to learn. It's their lack of courtesy and basic trail etiquette that risks getting trails closed to all bike users. But it's not just the trails, it's the sidewalks and roundabouts and soon county roads in the middle of nowhere. Visit the Maroon Bells if you dare for a glance into the microcosm of the current shituation. Coming soon to a town near you.

There are also analog cyclists that flaunt the rules, but the new generation of e-bikers seem to surpass that in droves. I just think e-bikers need to pass a test to get a license to use them because as of now it's their lack of ethics that furthers Blain's coal-rolling rage against the cyclists who are actually engaging in rules of the road, or ruins Hannah Hiker's birdwatching outing for the 60+ crowd.

And thirdly, my particular beef with Moots is that carbon e-gravel garbage is nothing but a cash grab/me-too 'here's our version of a soft-shell', from a company that has boasted its DNA on quality, low volume ti fabrication made in the USA for the better part of 40 years. If they really wanted to enable more ppl on bikes, the entry price-point would be more affordable for the layman, not 10K. I always appreciate calculated risks taken from highly-regarded outdoor gear & bike companies and I've been fortunate to work for many. But this is going over like a fart in church. They should have created a sub-brand to not taint the Moots ethos; instead they penetrate with no lube or foreplay and then expect everyone to swallow, history be damned.

I was skeptical when the new owner that came from a fortune 500 company bought them 4 years ago, but even the article in Forbes he states "...I took my kids out of school, traveled the world, spent time with my family. I did not have [any] desire to go back to [the corporate] world. I don’t [want to be] always chasing the [dollar]. My quest is to feel satisfied...."

And also “...All of the bikes are hand built in Steamboat Springs, Colorado, and we don’t want to lose that. From a growth perspective, we’re not trying to blow the doors off–I’m happy with slow and steady....”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlton...h=36915497462f

Carl Mega stated on a different forum, "..finally, a Moots I don't want."

Hate to see it. But...money money money. And yes, I hate change.

/rants

[XXX-er]

That's a very Canadian perspective.

Go to a meeting with some American land managers and then come talk to me about what a boon ebikes are to the cause.

perhaps a northern BC perspective cuz they run a huge shwack of NW BC out of here from a building 3 blocks away so everyone knows everyone, sometimes you are going ski/ bike/ paddling in a truck with 5 people and everyone is govy, i often think things might get things done becuz, its not outright illegal perhaps more subliminal

I worked on a little project with a group of BC skier/ BC gov types where we set up a donated 24' trailer ( AKA the chateau Belair ) on crown land for a BC ski cabin which seemed entirely illegal to me so i asked " are your sure we are allowed to do this ? "

" oh yeah I talked to so & so and its ok as long as its not a permanent structure "

" OK, so where did you get this pre-fab out house its looks like BC parks ? " ... " uh yeah its cool eh " so I shut up and dug the hole

A big snow that year crushed the Chateau Belair so next year we put the snow shed over it with posts to take the snow loads ... but it wasn't permanent eh

The BC gov runs the tenure, is driving the local initiatives to spend $$$$ bus, local managers are or at least were getting budgets to thro money at local initiatives, mtn biking trails being one of them, trails are getting built in places that I can't believe like mackenzie or Kitimaat

[Bunion 2020]

It was a bit tongue-in-cheek sure. I'm not bagging on anybody that gets here after me (well, mostly anyway), we all come from somewhere. Admittedly, it's been a bit jarring the past few years as the change went from gradual to 'fuck you in your face this is the new reality and accept it

/rants

Condensed version.

Quality rant and universal to most any 1/2 way desirable towns in the west.

[toast2266]

And thirdly, my particular beef with Moots is that carbon e-gravel garbage is nothing but a cash grab/me-too 'here's our version of a soft-shell', from a company that has boasted its DNA on quality, low volume ti fabrication made in the USA for the better part of 40 years. If they really wanted to enable more ppl on bikes, the entry price-point would be more affordable for the layman, not 10K. I always appreciate calculated risks taken from highly-regarded outdoor gear & bike companies and I've been fortunate to work for many. But this is going over like a fart in church. They should have created a sub-brand to not taint the Moots ethos; instead they penetrate with no lube or foreplay and then expect everyone to swallow, history be damned.

I kind of get the Moots thing. In the 90's, they were one of a small number of halo tier brands that every mountain bikers lusted after. But then the mountain bike changed; full suspension took over, and now only a small quirky subset lusts after a Moots. Almost every other bike brand either adapted, went out of business, or scaled back into relative obscurity.

So I can't really fault Moots for trying to be viable. If they'd done it in the late 90's when everyone was changing the kind of bikes they were making, no one would've batted an eye.

They could've followed Ibis' trajectory and shifted from making hardtails and interesting Ti things in the 90's to making Taiwanese produced full suspension bikes now. Or they could follow Merlin and apparently still exist, even though I haven't seen or heard of a Merlin bike in probably 20 years. So yeah, when confronted with the choice between trying to be more like Ibis, or trying to be more like Merlin, I don't really fault them for thinking Ibis looks a bit more attractive.

[californiagrown]

So, my observation is that basically anyone under 40 or 45 doesn’t give a fuck, and don’t see the point in being an asshole about it. ‘Run what ya brung’.
But anyone over 45 who lived during the Great MTB Access Wars in the ‘90’s and 00’s still care. A lot.
But then anyone over 60 that still wants to get after it are (generally) all for it again.
There are obviously outliers in each category, but this is what I am observing.
The rule going forward among the ‘cyclists’ is ‘don’t be a dick’.

you posted this, then a bunch of mags aged 45-60 posted proving your hypothesis haha.

[Tailwind]

Interesting comment from John in response to the moots e bike on the Radavist:

“The biggest, most upsetting thing is because of all the direct-to-consumer/trash heap Class II e-bikes out there, liability insurance has skyrocketed for small framebuilders. The average price of liability insurance has risen $2000 a year - all because of e-bike lawsuits.“

I kinda take his word for this one and if it’s true that’s kinda a bummer.