Results 1,151 to 1,175 of 6153
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06-04-2019, 06:45 PM #1151
Excellent. More reading less typing. Lots of links in the several Montana threads. Lots of bullshit to be discovered. One hint, though: when the scientist's opinion carries obvious bias but is still being stated as "science" it's time to check your bullshit meter. Bigotry plus science is really hot right now.
OTOH the science regarding bikes on trails is so well settled that the USFS recently gave up and admitted in writing "It is true mountain biking may not be as impactful on the landscape as other uses...." (and then went on to describe the horrific social impacts suffered by hikers who read letters to the editor in their downtown condos). Meanwhile most damage is done by foot traffic: broken glass, graffiti, fires, shotgun shells, dump sites: no one is riding in on a mountain bike to do those things. Wilderness trails are not immune to the idiocy of the pedestrian, and designating a new W is "good" for the local economy because it attracts more of them, not less.
Your advice on what happens when big tech moves in is good: it shows that you see the value of living somewhere in understanding what happens there. The same is true of USFS Region 1 (mostly MT and ID). But read up, there's good information mixed in with the ranting.
Search sucks, so here's a start:
https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...e-You-re-Drunk
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06-04-2019, 06:51 PM #1152
This looks like the right place to ask if I want loud or quiet hubs on my next carbon wheel build?
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06-04-2019, 06:53 PM #1153
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06-04-2019, 06:55 PM #1154Registered User
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- Jul 2016
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- 209
quiet for me. If you live in Montana LOUD!
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06-04-2019, 07:08 PM #1155
The question isn't whether mountain bikes negatively impact wildlife. They clearly do, for various reasons stated above.
The question is why are mountain bikes excluded from trails where horses and foot traffic are allowed?
All user groups have impacts of some sort. Those impacts vary from group to group. Mountain bikers travel relatively fast with relatively little noise. Horses tear up trails, shit noxious weeds, and are large smelly beasts that are likely to scare away wildlife. Hikers are more likely to travel off trail, and slower rates of travel mean that when they pass an animal, they're in that animal's bubble for longer. Hikers and horses are more likely to set up camp, cook food, and do various other things that might attract wildlife
I've yet to see a study that makes any attempt to weigh those impacts against each other. If some reasonably scientifically rigorous study came out and said bikes, overall, have way more impact than hikers or horses, then so be it. Maybe it makes sense for some sensitive areas to be closed / remain closed to bikes. But until that study comparing user groups exists, all of the arguments against bikes are just a bunch of NIMBY bullshit from people acting like their shit doesn't stink. "Our impacts are fine, but your different but roughly comparable impacts are an outrage."
And all of that applies equally to e-bikes. Those things have their own set of impacts. Its fairly safe to say that they're similar to mountain bike impacts, but a bit more. Whether those impacts are large enough to draw a line and keep them off the trails will entirely vary on the situation and should be addressed on a trail by trail basis (just as it should with every other user group).
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06-04-2019, 07:14 PM #1156
Another awesome thread, this one a bit more upbeat:
https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...32#post5684932
Note the average speeds in this "race"--a lot more akin to what you'd see on really long epics than what you may have heard from the no-bikes crowd who would have you believe all riders are digging lines for the next Redbull event.
But to keep this anti-e-bike and all about my entitlement: low gears can get you anywhere, the only reason you need a motor is to go faster. HTFU or GTFO.
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06-04-2019, 07:58 PM #1157
If riding in bear country, the louder the better.
Some good stuff added on.And all of that applies equally to e-bikes. Those things have their own set of impacts. Its fairly safe to say that they're similar to mountain bike impacts, but a bit more. Whether those impacts are large enough to draw a line and keep them off the trails will entirely vary on the situation and should be addressed on a trail by trail basis (just as it should with every other user group).
Maybe it is just that every fucking THING is so hyper politicized these days but the vitriol from the anti-crowd makes me really question the peaceful, mellow and all loving image that backpackers have always sought to cultivate.
And as for Redsmurfer, ok you asked for it.
https://www.bikemag.com/industry-new...rUCqeeCeB36Eug
https://www.mtbcgnf.org/?fbclid=IwAR...ik5H0vl0jlU2sQ
Read up a bit, make some comments either for or against as long as you are informed. 2 days left and again, we are getting our asses kicked.
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06-04-2019, 08:23 PM #1158
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06-04-2019, 08:53 PM #1159
My rant? This fucking thread. You fuckers dicked it all up. Come in, state your gripe, Get The Fuck Out. It ain’t that fucking hard.
Go start your own thread titled “Let’s argue back and forth and never change each others minds! I’m Right And I Hate You For It! (Dick wagging and pissing contests encouraged)”
Sent from my iPhone using TGR ForumsHowever many are in a shit ton.
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06-04-2019, 10:21 PM #1160
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06-04-2019, 10:43 PM #1161
I’m just pissed that these dumb fucking heavy shitty riding turds are inevitably gonna fuck up a lot of mtb access scenes.
I get it, it’s fun and novel to have a little motor under ya, but a bunch of us rode heavy stupid bikes for years...and sure, they were fun because they were different and we could ride radder shit. But then we all bitched and moaned for so long and we finally have these totally ridiculous, light awesome bikes in every shape and size and we can ride even better shit, then suddenly these kooks just wanna go backwards with weight and riding style...while simultaneously jeopardizing access all over the place. Fuck!
Just wait until there is a critical mass of these things out in the world and we start to see failure rates. Gonna keep shops in business.
Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
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06-04-2019, 10:47 PM #1162
I was just thinking there wasn't much "ranting". More of a civil discussion. Strange. Where tf am i
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06-05-2019, 02:05 AM #1163
I could support the wildlife angle of needing Wilderness to sustain a threatened species like the grizzly bear. But if these areas are so important and wildlife is affected by all users, why is it only bikes that get kicked out? Surely if these haters are so concerned about wildlife and this is a small sacrifice in these uncertain times, they won't mind not being allowed to go there as well? What about Wilderness areas where wildlife is much less of a concern? Then we are back to the "bikes will ruin our feeling of isolation and solitude" argument. If they would just admit that they fucking hate bikes and don't want to share I could at least respect that stance. But this demand for solitude while on a public trail is BS. A trail is a travel corridor. Anyone can use it. If there are too many people on it, bikes included, all you have to do is walk 100ft off trail and you will see no one.
Anyone who has done a lot of backcountry mountainbiking knows that backcountry riding is generally not a high speed activity. If you look at stats from almost any of my rides I average around 5mph. I posted stats at the bottom of my AZT thru ride trip report linked below. My average for the whole trip was around 4.6 mph. Sure descents can be much faster but those are over quickly so the majority of time is spend plodding along. A hiker might average 2-3mph. A trail runner - can't say but I've been passed by plenty of them who I never caught up to again, so anecdotally their average speed is greater than a mountain biker. So shouldn't trail runners be banned along with bikes?
I've also heard the argument that bikes have less impact on wildlife because they tend to travel at a more constant rate throughout the landscape and tend to stop less frequently, so wildlife are less likely to view them as a threat. A hiker will be slower and might stop to look around more especially if they see wildlife, and this can seem more predatory therefore causing the wildlife to move away.
When you read the comments by opponents of bike access they complain about how fast bikes travel, and always around a blind corner of course. Each one of them has a story about a fast moving mountain biker colliding with them, or at minimum coming tearing around a corner and scaring them off the trail. They make it sound like hiking on a multi-use trail is a terrifying experience. Sure it is easy to startle a hiker but that is a far cry from running them off the trail. A lot of people seem to be projecting their experience on front country trail systems that are overrun with clueless users of all types and assuming those same behaviors will occur on a backcountry Wilderness trail. And that just isn't what goes on on those trails. They are too much work for the average mountain biker to want to attempt. These trails are not going to become overrun with bikes.
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06-05-2019, 09:09 AM #1164
Soon you can ride the access roads for the drilling and mining rigs out there in the wild.
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06-05-2019, 09:18 AM #1165Besides the comet that killed the dinosaurs nothing has destroyed a species faster than entitled white people.-ajp
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06-05-2019, 09:28 AM #1166
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06-05-2019, 09:29 AM #1167
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06-05-2019, 09:32 AM #1168
mountain bikers startling wildlife and other trail users is kind of a BS argument. Everyone knows bikers blast music from their backpack speakers when tearing up the trails. I prefer something like pitbull or Kanye in the backcountry
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06-05-2019, 09:34 AM #1169
I'd support some Complete Human Exclusion ZonesTM. Not holding my breath.
"Now, please excuse me while I go enjoy my isolation and solitude by posting to Instagram from my sat phone."
I've found that it's pretty common for "No Bikes in Wilderness" arguments to detour into implicit or explicit disdain for anyone that moves faster than a walking pace. If they could find a way to ban trail running they absolutely would.
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06-05-2019, 09:55 AM #1170
I'd like to ban banning stuff.
Besides the comet that killed the dinosaurs nothing has destroyed a species faster than entitled white people.-ajp
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06-05-2019, 10:18 AM #1171yelgatgab
- Join Date
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- Shadynasty's Jazz Club
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- 10,249
I vote to ban the ban on banning stuff.
Remind me. We'll send him a red cap and a Speedo.
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06-05-2019, 10:19 AM #1172
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06-05-2019, 10:20 AM #1173
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06-05-2019, 10:32 AM #1174yelgatgab
- Join Date
- Oct 2002
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- Shadynasty's Jazz Club
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We've been fighting bored old farts for years on allowing mountain bikes on trails around the local reservoir. We're talking about a city reservoir that can been seen from the interstate, has tons of hiking traffic, and was recently expanded in a massive, multi-year construction project. These people still stand on arguments about pristine wilderness, sensitive habitats, and endangered species. Common sense should be enough to shut them down, but when you have decision-makers that don't know their ass from a hole in the ground, anything goes.
Remind me. We'll send him a red cap and a Speedo.
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06-05-2019, 10:44 AM #1175
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