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  1. #3301
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    Etiquette dictates that you can tell the slow-descending e-bikers to fuck off without worry of reprisal. At least buzz their wheels.

    (Do I need a smiley emoticon? )
    Forum Cross Pollinator, gratuitously strident

  2. #3302
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcski View Post
    Im not a big stickler for uphill right of way, but when it’s a spot where traction is needed and getting started again easily is less than optimal I notice it a lot more. Especially when the descending group is spread out and lead by a local pro. This is the second time I’ve seen his group do this and act like the uphillers are in their way.
    I agree here as well, and go based on the current situation.
    E.g. If someone is riding down a tricky section and someone else is hiking up, I think the person going up should yield.
    Also, If it's a super-fun descent and I'm just spinning easy on the climb, I'll often get out of the way to let them continue their fun.

    However, if I'm going against convention I try to be well stopped and out of the way to prevent the other rider from stopping then restarting their progress.

  3. #3303
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtrPickels View Post
    I agree here as well, and go based on the current situation.
    E.g. If someone is riding down a tricky section and someone else is hiking up, I think the person going up should yield.
    Also, If it's a super-fun descent and I'm just spinning easy on the climb, I'll often get out of the way to let them continue their fun.

    However, if I'm going against convention I try to be well stopped and out of the way to prevent the other rider from stopping then restarting their progress.
    This is generally how I roll... and since I'm hiking *most* of the time when I'm going uphill, it's pretty simple for me.

  4. #3304
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    Quote Originally Posted by teledad View Post
    One of my pet peeves with e-bikes as well - if you're going to pass me on the uphill but don't know how to descend, be ready to get out of the way when I catch you.
    That has been rough to handle on Crest this summer. I usually get up there late in the day when the temps are getting better and the trail is more quiet and haul ass on the whole thing. I've had some really spectacular sunset laps up there in the past but lately I keep getting caught by a bunch of guys on e-bikes about halfway up the last big climb. They drop me on the grind then I narrow the gap on the pedally section that follows and catch them right in the fun flowy section. Most of them have refused to let me go by because they know they'll drop me on the next climb and they don't want to bother. So I get stuck behind their sorry asses riding a 1/2 the speed I want to be at. I've considered a few French lines to pass them but the options on that trail are few and far between and I'd probably eat shit doing it...

    Couple weeks ago I tasted sweet revenge when one of the slow pokes who ignored me twice when I asked if I could pass slid off the trail on some off-camber section and got all tangled up in shrubs. No injuries, not even a scratch, but dude had to drag his 60 lbs mule back up to the trail while I cackled and pedaled away.
    #pettypleasures.

    Quote Originally Posted by VTskibum View Post
    This for sure, but I've also been in the opposite, where on very fast group rides (they do exist, though generally rare) we stop and regroup, but then immediately catch the plodding along rider(s) that we let go ahead.

    In either case, rule #1 "Don't be a dick" applies, including to your second point.
    I'm sure it happens but it seems the opposite is much more common. Rule #1 solves all.
    Last year I had the pleasure of listening to Ms Boissal chew up a guy who pulled that move on her. She was plodding along and dude who was shooting the shit with another guy just jumped in front of her and started spinning. He damn near touched her front wheel when he made his move and when she asked him WTF he was doing he flat out told her he was clearly faster than her. She proceeded to ride his rear wheel for a couple minutes until he was so redlined he had to pull over. As she went by she asked if he automatically assumed all 300 lbs guys were faster than all women or if it was something about her. I almost fell off the bike laughing.
    "Your wife being mad is temporary, but pow turns do not get unmade" - mallwalker the wise

  5. #3305
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    For sure, I get the normal situation more than one I posted above. I’ve had some people really be a dick about it as well.

    Have a few female XC pro friends that get some pretty horrible behavior. Way back one guy couldn’t understand she was higher in the group ride pecking order and kept trying to take her spot in a well established mtb group. She finally just started rubbing his rear tire, rest of us were loving that part. Last time he rode with us.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  6. #3306
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    ^^^ one of the good things about riding around Park City is the number of really fast ladies around. Male ego shrinks real fast when you get passed by hordes of women going 2x the speed then handling the tech on race bikes better than I can on the big squish.

    Next rant: big loose rocks. I'm not a fan of trail sanitation but the 3rd time I come across a big loose old cube sitting in a corner waiting to murder me I stop and toss it into the brush. Got yelled at by some kook the other day when he saw me stop and remove a pointy thing that had tried to eat my front wheel. I was told I needed to go back to carpet canyon and I should be ashamed of myself and I have no business riding a MTB if I want smooth trails. Sigh...
    "Your wife being mad is temporary, but pow turns do not get unmade" - mallwalker the wise

  7. #3307
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    Oh, so YOU were the guy on the Orbea??
    Last edited by muted reborn; 10-04-2021 at 09:11 PM.

  8. #3308
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    Dec 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boissal View Post

    Next rant: big loose rocks. I'm not a fan of trail sanitation but the 3rd time I come across a big loose old cube sitting in a corner waiting to murder me I stop and toss it into the brush. Got yelled at..
    So, you had 3 chances and you couldn't do it so you sanitize. You, are an asshole. Fukkin gapers on the trails these days

  9. #3309
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTskibum View Post
    This for sure, but I've also been in the opposite, where on very fast group rides (they do exist, though generally rare) we stop and regroup, but then immediately catch the plodding along rider(s) that we let go ahead.

    In either case, rule #1 "Don't be a dick" applies, including to your second point.
    I have many years of mental conditioning to panic and jump on the bike to get going when we see a group coming so we don’t get stuck behind them. So I guess it goes both ways.

  10. #3310
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    Anyone have anything they'd like to rant about?

    Quote Originally Posted by mcski View Post
    Im not a big stickler for uphill right of way, but when it’s a spot where traction is needed and getting started again easily is less than optimal I notice it a lot more. Especially when the descending group is spread out and lead by a local pro. This is the second time I’ve seen his group do this and act like the uphillers are in their way.
    Uphill always has the right of way. Maybe e bikes will eventually change that, but not yet. People are actually pretty good about that here.

    Unless the uphill person is hiking. Rule only applies if you are in the saddle.

    Also, props to Mrs Boissal. She and Mrs EWG would clearly get along well. Though Mrs EWG apparently uses more direct and less humorous language than Mrs Boissal.
    Last edited by EWG; 10-05-2021 at 07:20 AM.

  11. #3311
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    Miss Boissal and Miss EWG seem like gems. I need to encourage Miss B to error on the side of aggression rather than bitching later when she gets home.

  12. #3312
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    Some of the worst dynamics around here are large groups (think 12-15 riders on a group ride) and usually the first handful of riders don’t yield to uphill riders while they’re descending. Reading between the lines it seems like there are a couple of people out to prove that they’re fast (usually they’re not but are riding on the fringe of control) and a couple more people just along for the ride. It’s scary as hell as the uphill rider to be passed at 15mph my people on tight terrain. I’ve had my bars clipped and been none to thrilled. Im pretty level but was definitely tempted to chase them down and give them a Trail Etiquette overview that highlighted that they suck at riding bikes.

    Point being : assume downhill yields even when you’re a big group. I’m happy to put of foot down for people when I’m climbing but get pissed if I don’t get a chance to do that and get buzzed. Also group rides; set expectations for riding in control and curbing BDE.

  13. #3313
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    ^^^ regardless of who's going up or down, it doesn't make sense for 15 people to stop for 1.

    Doesn't mean they should be reckless about it though.

  14. #3314
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    May 2002
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    688
    I don't understand why guys have to make cycling so competitive. I'm restless and it's always been a way to stay busy and be outside. I'm not super competitive and more internally driven but I hate that people I ride with whether it's MTN or Road have to ride as fast as they can? or average a certain speed or watts. Your not a pro , take a fucking chill pill.

  15. #3315
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    ^^^ regardless of who's going up or down, it doesn't make sense for 15 people to be riding together in a single group.
    FIFY.

    Uphill has the right of way until and unless uphill cedes it voluntarily. Big groups and mopeds don't change that.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  16. #3316
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    Nov 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boissal View Post
    Next rant: big loose rocks. I'm not a fan of trail sanitation but the 3rd time I come across a big loose old cube sitting in a corner waiting to murder me I stop and toss it into the brush. Got yelled at by some kook the other day when he saw me stop and remove a pointy thing that had tried to eat my front wheel. I was told I needed to go back to carpet canyon and I should be ashamed of myself and I have no business riding a MTB if I want smooth trails. Sigh...
    I am firmly of the opinion that on most trails, anything that's not attached to the ground, and can be moved with a quick kick or toss is fair game to clean up. I'm no fan of sanitization either, and lord knows I complain about it enough but kicking baby heads out of a rut, or moving pointy chunks out of a corner is not "taking away from the spirit of the trail." It's just trail maintenance. Filling in braking bumps is not "sanitizing" anything either. Give me more roots and boulders and less loose chunks.

    If a trail can be made "smooth" by kicking out a few loose baby heads, it's not a tech trail to begin with.

  17. #3317
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    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    Uphill has the right of way until and unless uphill cedes it voluntarily. Big groups and mopeds don't change that.
    That's a silly, outdated rule that ignores the practicalities of modern recreation.

    While we're at it, the same goes for the rule that all bikes have to yield to hikers.

    Trying to shoehorn modern recreational usage into antiquated ideals about trails is why there's so much conflict. If land managers quit trying to lean on dumb rules about what people "should" be doing and instead built rules and trail systems around what people are actually doing, everyone would be happier.

  18. #3318
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    Oct 2017
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    I hear you on “one person should yield to the big group” and I’m happy to do so given the chance. I’d guess the practicality varies based on where you’re riding and the trails. Front Range Co has busy trails and even being smart it’s tricky to not have negative trail interactions.

    It’s super common that you’ll come around a corner riding fast and have an uphill rider or hiker below you. If you don’t immediately get on your brakes, you lose your chance to stop (meaning you plain run out of stopping distance). As a group riding downhill, the assumption needs to be “if there is someone downhill I need to hit my brakes and slow to figure out what’s going on”. If the uphill rider or hiker yields, great pass at a reasonable speed. What throws me is groups that make the assumption they have the right of way, so they don’t hit their brakes (which means they don’t have the chance to yield if the uphill rider or hiker can’t move easily and are going by regardless). My experience has been climbing technical sections and just not being able to relocate before a group comes by.

    I know this all sounds a bit dramatized but I’ve had this experience quite a bit this Summer. We’re slowly having trails closed to bikes and restrictions on what days bikes can be on trails. More directional trails are proposed which will likely help. My point is : slow down a bit, sort things out, pass safely.


    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    That's a silly, outdated rule that ignores the practicalities of modern recreation.

    While we're at it, the same goes for the rule that all bikes have to yield to hikers.

    Trying to shoehorn modern recreational usage into antiquated ideals about trails is why there's so much conflict. If land managers quit trying to lean on dumb rules about what people "should" be doing and instead built rules and trail systems around what people are actually doing, everyone would be happier.

  19. #3319
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    That's a silly, outdated rule that ignores the practicalities of modern recreation. .
    Does no one actually pedal uphill in your vision of "modern recreation"? What's fundamentally different now, compared with 20 years ago?

    I'm all for directional trails, and I agree that foot traffic should generally yield to bikes because it's so much easier and less destructive for them to step off of the trail. You'll have to come up with a really strong, well reasoned argument to convince me (and the majority, including probably every trail advocacy organization) that uphill pedalers should yield to downhill, though.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  20. #3320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tailwind View Post
    It’s super common that you’ll come around a corner riding fast and have an uphill rider or hiker below you. If you don’t immediately get on your brakes, you lose your chance to stop (meaning you plain run out of stopping distance). As a group riding downhill, the assumption needs to be “if there is someone downhill I need to hit my brakes and slow to figure out what’s going on”. If the uphill rider or hiker yields, great pass at a reasonable speed. What throws me is groups that make the assumption they have the right of way, so they don’t hit their brakes (which means they don’t have the chance to yield if the uphill rider or hiker and are going by regardless).
    Pretty much agree with all of that. I'm certainly not advocating for the dh group blowing through at full speed. The logical interaction is that the dh group sees the uphill rider, slows up, and rides the edge of the trail. Uphill rider pauses while dh group passes. Everyone continues on their way, and then writes letters to their local land manager advocating for more directional trails.

  21. #3321
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    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    Does no one actually pedal uphill in your vision of "modern recreation"? What's fundamentally different now, compared with 20 years ago?
    Nothing's different. It was a dumb rule then too, there were just a whole lot less people on the trail so it didn't matter as much.

    It takes an uphill rider about 3 feet to come to a controlled stop. It takes a downhill rider maybe 100 feet, depending on the trail. Descending rider stopping usually involves a bunch of skidding and fuckery. It's just not an efficient interaction.

  22. #3322
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    Descending rider stopping usually involves a bunch of skidding and fuckery. It's just not an efficient interaction.
    On a 2-way popular trail, might it be a good idea to not be riding so fast that it takes you 100+ft of skidding and fuckery to barely avoid a collision if your sight lines are <120'? Id think that would be common sense. Especially if hiker-biker trail use is contentious.

  23. #3323
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    On a 2-way popular trail, might it be a good idea to not be riding so fast that it takes you 100+ft of skidding and fuckery to barely avoid a collision if your sight lines are <120'? Id think that would be common sense. Especially if hiker-biker trail use is contentious.
    They should put this on a sign, especially on Jenni's trail at PCMR. I will hold my line when I'm climbing I don't care how fast you're bombing, if you dont stop you're gonna have to bail.

  24. #3324
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    On a 2-way popular trail, might it be a good idea to not be riding so fast that it takes you 100+ft of skidding and fuckery to barely avoid a collision if your sight lines are <120'? Id think that would be common sense. Especially if hiker-biker trail use is contentious.
    Sure - that kind of riding is obviously a bad idea. And you can tsk-tsk it all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it happens all the time. Whether it's experts exceeding their sight lines or beginners who don't really have control of their bike, it's always happened, and it always will happen. So you can either continue to swear by the arbitrary rules that don't really work, or you can adjust the rules to better accommodate the practicalities of the real world.

    There's no good reason for uphill riders not to yield. Regardless of whether the downhill rider is riding appropriately or not, it's a far more efficent interaction.

  25. #3325
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    Quote Originally Posted by muted reborn View Post
    Oh, so YOU were the guy on the Orbea??
    Did you see me remove a rock? Pass me on an ebike? Witness my wife tongue lash a chubs?

    Quote Originally Posted by tellybele View Post
    So, you had 3 chances and you couldn't do it so you sanitize. You, are an asshole. Fukkin gapers on the trails these days
    Either my sarcasm-meter shat the bed or you can't read. Assuming #2, we're not talking about a technical section I can't clear, we're talking about an off-camber turn that is smooth but a bit rutted and has shit collecting in the rut, including a big pointy loose rock. Since it's super easy to slide into the rut at speed, I removed the loose rock. I know it's there and I don't see myself hitting it but someone will and it will hurt. You think that's not acceptable? Please fuck right off.

    Quote Originally Posted by cydwhit View Post
    I am firmly of the opinion that on most trails, anything that's not attached to the ground, and can be moved with a quick kick or toss is fair game to clean up. I'm no fan of sanitization either, and lord knows I complain about it enough but kicking baby heads out of a rut, or moving pointy chunks out of a corner is not "taking away from the spirit of the trail." It's just trail maintenance. Filling in braking bumps is not "sanitizing" anything either. Give me more roots and boulders and less loose chunks.

    If a trail can be made "smooth" by kicking out a few loose baby heads, it's not a tech trail to begin with.
    Glad I'm not the only one thinking that way. I made the mistake of posting a new Crest bypass on Trailforks the other day, a section that is a few 100' long and avoids the shittiest section of janky old dirt road. Got flamed in the comments by a guy who basically implied that I supported trail sanitation and probably couldn't ride rocky stuff. OK guy, I'm just happy I can now pedal up a section that was completely unrideable on the up and stupid as shit on the down. Who bemoans the loss of what was basically a gravel quarry? On a fucking blue flow trail...
    "Your wife being mad is temporary, but pow turns do not get unmade" - mallwalker the wise

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