article on letting kids play...

[old goat]

Do kids even get stitches and broken bones any more? We loved getting stitches because we were all into hockey, they were always talking about how many stitches guys on the Wings got and we wanted to be like our heroes. Nobody I knew was missing any permanent teeth, though, but one kid had his thumb cut off when his brother slammed the laundry chute door on it.

I have a question though. We played a lot of football and hockey in the street. When we saw a cop car we scattered. I have always wondered if the cops would actually have cared about us playing in the street or done anything if they caught us. I think not. Probably some old lady called the cops on us and they had to drive by and pretend they were trying to do something about it. We did have old people on both sides of us. We would play football on the lawn--a regulation field was two neighboring lawns and the driveway in the middle, and never once did anyone tell us to get off their lawn.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Sooooooooooo this guy is going back to pre-1980s? Very funny. I know... I know.. it's different today. Danger lurking around every corner.

I remember growing up in a neighborhood full of kids (we were the smallest family with only three kids) and around 6-6:30p every night you would hear a chorus of mothers shouting kids names to come in for dinner and we would all scatter back to our respective homes. Sigh... those were the days.

I know that it was even more like that in the 70's, but having basically grown up in the 80's what you describe sounds like what I lived.

I attempt to allow my kids to grow up closer to how I did, but live in a place that may have an unusually high helicopter parent percentage, and certainly has an over-representation of neurotic parents. Back when my older girl was in kindergarten we went to the annual school Halloween party--basically what you picture: hundreds of kids running around the lower two floors of the school, games, etc. So I'm standing in line for a game with the younger girl, and chatting with a parent. Suddenly she asks where the other girl is, and I just shrug my shoulders and say, "Somewhere in the building playing, I'm sure." Other parent looked at me like I just admitted to planning 9/11. Couldn't believe I would allow a 6 YO to run around with her friends unattended (I knew she would not leave the building b/c she was scared of the street, plus the school has security at the door). To me this kind of parent is the crazy one, but these days I am certainly in the minority.

IMO it's the helicopter parent thing that has given rise to all the bullshit we currently see among Millennials (their feelings trump everything else, safe spaces, trigger warnings, inability to understand what free speech actually entails), but I guess that's a little off topic.

[Dexter Rutecki]

one kid had his thumb cut off when his brother slammed the laundry chute door on it.

Yeah, when thumbs start getting severed I'm going to say you're presenting a good argument for the other side of this equation.

I have a question though. We played a lot of football and hockey in the street. When we saw a cop car we scattered. I have always wondered if the cops would actually have cared about us playing in the street or done anything if they caught us. I

Pretty sure they would have let you guys plead down to misdemeanors if you'd ever been caught. Good idea scattering like that.

[old goat]

Yeah, when thumbs start getting severed I'm going to say you're presenting a good argument for the other side of this equation.

The occasional severed thumb is more than balanced by the modern father introducing the kid to death sports while they're still in diapers. And we've all seen the guy dragging his kid crying and screaming down something too steep for his ability. Done it myself once or twice. Now the kid does it to me--including the crying and screaming. I used to climb but I never tried to get either of my kids into it. I figure something that dangerous is something a person has to decide to get into on his own. A few years ago the eldest--he's 31 now--decided to get into climbing. He'd be a lot better if he started sooner--so what. (He also sky dives and has pilot's license; wish he'd get a wife.)

[Tippster]

She didn't jump off the roof. She'll make it.

[Buster Highmen]

Have any of you watched your kid tomahawk down one of the steeper runs around?

[old goat]

Have any of you watched your kid tomahawk down one of the steeper runs around?

Yes as a matter of fact--he stepped out of a Marker coming out of Extra. But he was 23 at the time.

[Buster Highmen]

Yes as a matter of fact--he stepped out of a Marker coming out of Extra. But he was 23 at the time.

Mine was 12 years old on the lower Silverton liftline. Got going then got spun around by a twig, started going backwards and tried to pull it out but failed. A good 70 yard tumble.

[hutash]

No, but my kids have watched me tomahawk, does that count?

More then once. Parenting by example (of what not to do.)

[Buster Highmen]

It's one thing to advocate but another thing to experience.

It's like FZ said: if you want to have a good relationship with your children, it's best not to treat them like property.

[LightRanger]

I used to climb but I never tried to get either of my kids into it. I figure something that dangerous is something a person has to decide to get into on his own.

So, does that mean I'm a bad parent when I pick up a full-body harness next year and put my 3 YOs on the beginner slab at Donner (if they want to, at least)?

[1080Rider]

With all that time and $$$, he shoulda just built a half pipe an called it good.

[Buster Highmen]

So, does that mean I'm a bad parent when I pick up a full-body harness next year and put my 3 YOs on the beginner slab at Donner (if they want to, at least)?

Guilty as charged, except ours were 5 & 7 and it was at a climbing gym.

[LightRanger]

Yeah, I may be taking them in the gym once or twice first for sure. A lot of the newer park play structures have mini walls with holds on them (wish they had those in the 80s), and they get the general idea from that. But I think the gym once or twice would be best to build a bit of confidence.

That slab is perfect for kids. I couldn't find many good images of it online, but it's got a ton of TR anchors and you always see guide services out there teaching. Here's the best I could find.

[wyeaster]

You Can Hack Child’s Play, If You’re Rich

http://jezebel.com/you-can-hack-chil...ich-1788018703

Mike Lanza, a dad and tech entrepreneur from Menlo Park, California, thinks we’re experiencing a crisis in child-rearing: Boys aren’t allowed to play rough or run free, and moms hover nervously at the margins of children’s social worlds, chirping reminders about sharing and playing nice. The result, he explains in a profile in this week’s New York Times Magazine, is a panopticon of emasculation, an issue we’ve certainly heard about before. Helicopter parenting—a “mom philosophy,” as Lanza sees it—is ruining our boys and turning them into “sissies,” a bunch of whiny, Oedipal losers.

[muted]

With all that time and $$$, he shoulda just built a half pipe an called it good.

True, there are a ton of unsupervised halfpipes around, which is not a new thing.

Now I've read the article, the trampoline jump seems perfectly fine compared to having a 4 year old climb on top the house roof.

[old goat]

Are you guys serious--roping up for the beginner slab at Donner Summit? Wimps!

But seriously-I don't have a problem with gym or top rope climbing for kids, as long as they have a choice about continuing and can do so free of parental pressure or overinvolvement--same as I feel about any sport. As far as sport and especially trad--wait until they have an ability to understand the risks (which is probably after age 30 but let's say later teens). The big question is whether it's the kid's thing or the parent living vicariously through the kid. Now if someone wants to send their kid to the Himalaya to climb they should lose their parental rights.

I sometimes wonder who is better off--today's kids, who do lots of stuff with their parents, are nurtured and cherished and guided, or the kids of my generation whose parents basically considered them an annoyance and ignored them as much as possible and lived their own lives. (OK, judging by the way I turned out--probably today's kids.)

[LightRanger]

Are you guys serious--roping up for the beginner slab at Donner Summit? Wimps!

Not me. My 3 year-olds. :-P

But seriously-I don't have a problem with gym or top rope climbing for kids, as long as they have a choice about continuing and can do so free of parental pressure or overinvolvement--same as I feel about any sport. As far as sport and especially trad--wait until they have an ability to understand the risks (which is probably after age 30 but let's say later teens).

Man, you are an old goat. ;-) I led my first "sport" route at Pinnacles when I was... 19? And first trad route at 21. Followed about a year before, respectively. I was plenty scared and aware of the risks. No parental involvement on that. (And, yes, I'm aware that brain development in terms of risk assessment isn't fully there until ~25 or so according to the latest research, but still.)

But, yes, agree with your general approach. I taught in the Boreal kids program for many years. Plenty of experience with parents throwing their kids to the wolves on storm days and the kids being miserable to make missteps like that. Some of those days and kid-parent relationships with pushy parents thinking that skiing in a howling storm was good for 8 year-old Johnny left pretty indelible impressions. Parenting lessons a decade before I had children.

TBF, it's totally awesome if and when they just want to walk around collect pine cones and look for squirrels.

[Dantheman]

Have any of you watched your kid tomahawk down one of the steeper runs around?

Not yet. But he'd probably be missing some teeth from some bike wrecks if I hadn't bought him a full-face helmet.

[FormerKnuckleDragger]

You kind of have to recreate it since it doesn't exist anymore, at least not where that guy lives. The article also mentions that his son was riding his bike 1.5 miles home from school in first grade. That's pretty respectable autonomy in this age. People have been arrested, charged with child endangerment and had their kids placed in protective custody for less.

I grew up almost exactly where this guy lives. Maybe I was lucky, but my parents didn't have a problem with me heading out the door and promising to be back by dark/dinner time. All the trappings (playgrounds, quiet streets separated from thoroughfares, soccer fields, open space just up the hill on the Stanford campus) are there. The only thing holding back kids from playing in that neighborhood is parental attitude.

I live in SF now, and my kids are about to turn 4. We live in a "quiet" part of town, but every street is 3 or 4 blocks away from an arterial. I'm really hoping my kids get a whole lot more street smart before it's their turn to walk down the street and go to elementary school. Just scootering a few blocks on the sidewalk is perilous enough.

[KQ]

Remember this?

Maryland family under investigation again for letting kids play in park alone

[muted]

It's like FZ said: if you want to have a good relationship with your children, it's best not to treat them like property.

True, they don't respond well when you threaten to sell them ISIS, unfortunately.

[old goat]

Not me. My 3 year-olds. :-P



Man, you are an old goat. ;-) I led my first "sport" route at Pinnacles when I was... 19? And first trad route at 21. Followed about a year before, respectively. I was plenty scared and aware of the risks. No parental involvement on that. (And, yes, I'm aware that brain development in terms of risk assessment isn't fully there until ~25 or so according to the latest research, but still.)

But, yes, agree with your general approach. I taught in the Boreal kids program for many years. Plenty of experience with parents throwing their kids to the wolves on storm days and the kids being miserable to make missteps like that. Some of those days and kid-parent relationships with pushy parents thinking that skiing in a howling storm was good for 8 year-old Johnny left pretty indelible impressions. Parenting lessons a decade before I had children.

TBF, it's totally awesome if and when they just want to walk around collect pine cones and look for squirrels.

I was kidding about 30. Late teens works for me. I started leading trad about 19 or so, there was no such thing as sport back then--or at least nothing called that. There were bolts in Yosemite and Tuolumne and other places of course but those routes usually needed trad pro and anchors as well.

It's funny about kids and ski school. You see plenty of kids screaming and crying with their parents but rarely in ski school. Combination of other kids around and skilled instructors I guess. My kid taught 3-4 year olds for a season--said it was much harder physical work than pro patrol at Squaw. (His finest moment was when he had a private with twin girls and they both peed their pants. He told them that when he snowboarded he got his pants wet and kept going. They said cool and kept going.)

[Sirshredalot]

I was kidding about 30. Late teens works for me. I started leading trad about 19 or so, there was no such thing as sport back then--or at least nothing called that. There were bolts in Yosemite and Tuolumne and other places of course but those routes usually needed trad pro and anchors as well.

It's funny about kids and ski school. You see plenty of kids screaming and crying with their parents but rarely in ski school. Combination of other kids around and skilled instructors I guess. My kid taught 3-4 year olds for a season--said it was much harder physical work than pro patrol at Squaw. (His finest moment was when he had a private with twin girls and they both peed their pants. He told them that when he snowboarded he got his pants wet and kept going. They said cool and kept going.)

I taught kids (and adults) for years. There are a few reasons you don't see kids losing it in ski school. First, the instructor doesn't see this as their few hours away from the cube and thus doesn't feel compelled to push the terrain (a massive mistake). Second, for the same reasons, the instructor is willing to take a million bathroom, water, and food breaks if required. Third, school-age kids are conditioned to behave differently in a school setting - sometimes vastly differently from how they behave at home.

We will see if I can keep that shit in mind: this will be the first year my wife and I get our daughter on skis.

But, to return to the thread topic: our daughter won't be allowed outside by herself unless it is the middle of the day until she is very big and robust because of the wildlife.

[old goat]

I taught kids (and adults) for years. There are a few reasons you don't see kids losing it in ski school. First, the instructor doesn't see this as their few hours away from the cube and thus doesn't feel compelled to push the terrain (a massive mistake). Second, for the same reasons, the instructor is willing to take a million bathroom, water, and food breaks if required. Third, school-age kids are conditioned to behave differently in a school setting - sometimes vastly differently from how they behave at home.

We will see if I can keep that shit in mind: this will be the first year my wife and I get our daughter on skis.

But, to return to the thread topic: our daughter won't be allowed outside by herself unless it is the middle of the day until she is very big and robust because of the wildlife.

I've seen plenty of coyotes in the middle of the day. I rarely see them at night because . . . it's dark.