WTF Silverton?

[BFD]

I just got done reading through all that. Made two trips there this winter both times I left better conditions than what I found in their southeast pod. Time to explore the La Platas.

[Meadow Skipper]

http://silvertonmountain.com/heli-sk...epic-pass-era/

[hatchgreenchile]

^ very interesting.

I wonder what percentage of the commenters against the expansion live in San Juan county.

[Danno]

I just got done reading through all that. Made two trips there this winter both times I left better conditions than what I found in their southeast pod. Time to explore the La Platas.

La Platas are really tough because the access is difficult.

[goldenboy]

^ very interesting.

I wonder what percentage of the commenters against the expansion live in San Juan county.

Most backcountry visitors gravitate towards the passes. The area that Silverton just got is more of a locals zone, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was more local opposition. Pretty disappointed that the BLM ignored the comments. Heck, mine didn't even show up even though I got an email regarding the decision.

La Platas are really tough because the access is difficult.

Good access with a snowmobile, and I hear fat bike access is gaining popularity as well.

[hatchgreenchile]

Most backcountry visitors gravitate towards the passes. The area that Silverton just got is more of a locals zone, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was more local opposition. Pretty disappointed that the BLM ignored the comments. Heck, mine didn't even show up even though I got an email regarding the decision.

It's buried in the BLM site somewhere, but IMO, the usage statistics for the area didn't correlate with the regularly traveled narrative some preached, and I don't think that can be disregarded, nor can their economic impact in SJ County and experience avoiding other travelers (have heard zero Wasach Powderbird esque bullshit) . Coming from a Front Ranger perspective, the terrain in question was rarely traveled. I don't think they looked at March/April numbers, but the heli goes to Alaska then. Some of the comments on their social media links about the decision were funny. Who was the guy who worried about bombs getting dropped on sheep hunters? Yes, that is what SMG is going to do, drop charges on hunters wearing blaze orange at 12,000 feet in mid winter. At least check the hunt dates on that stuff

I wish these guys the best with the expansion. It's a unique operation they've got in a changing marketplace.

[adrenalated]

Most backcountry visitors gravitate towards the passes. The area that Silverton just got is more of a locals zone, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was more local opposition. Pretty disappointed that the BLM ignored the comments. Heck, mine didn't even show up even though I got an email regarding the decision.

They responded to one part of my comments. The response was not unlike the responses I get from emailing Senator Gardner. "Thank you for your comment. Go fuck yourself, we're ignoring it."

Overall the responses to most of the opposed comments mimics the above, and most of the supportive comments the answer was "Thank you for your comment." Most of the positive comments appeared to have been written by SMG or employees of SMG.

[goldenboy]

(have heard zero Wasach Powderbird esque bullshit) .

That's only because the old pods were a pain in the ass for backcountry travelers to reach until spring. Good heliskiing zones should be like that. The new ones aren't, and there will almost certainly be Powderbird type bullshit starting next year.

[BFD]

La Platas are really tough because the access is difficult.

has to be easier than Silverton. You need a heli to access that. Received a certified letter from BLM yesterday containing the decision and instructions on how to appeal.

[hatchgreenchile]

That's only because the old pods were a pain in the ass for backcountry travelers to reach until spring. Good heliskiing zones should be like that. The new ones aren't, and there will almost certainly be Powderbird type bullshit starting next year.

Based on the mid winter usage numbers, they clearly had zero issue betting that they'd be able to find a drainage with no people in it on a given day.

[Buster Highmen]

That's only because the old pods were a pain in the ass for backcountry travelers to reach until spring. Good heliskiing zones should be like that. The new ones aren't, and there will almost certainly be Powderbird type bullshit starting next year.

The old pods were most easily accessed via a Minnehaha Basin flyover where that area sees a lot of use both from sledheads and bc skiers.

I don't understand this claim that SM will start dropping heli skiers on bc skiers.

The real question is: how much of this opposition is an indirect result of not providing unguided skiing and other personal issues people have with SM.

I understand being pissed about the lack of unguided and some of my friends have expressed this as the reason to oppose the heli. For me, that's a separate issue.

[adrenalated]

Based on the mid winter usage numbers, they clearly had zero issue betting that they'd be able to find a drainage with no people in it on a given day.

The usage numbers were derived from SMG's monitoring of the area in 2016 (an unscientific, clearly biased source) and 14 days of "informal monitoring" by the BLM in 2017. The informal monitoring was conducted from mid-February to mid-March (remember how it didn't snow much then?) While I won't pretend to know what the usage is in those drainages I have a real hard time calling the numbers in the EA conclusive.

The real question is: how much of this opposition is an indirect result of not providing unguided skiing and other personal issues people have with SM.

I understand being pissed about the lack of unguided and some of my friends have expressed this as the reason to oppose the heli. For me, that's a separate issue.

I'm irritated by the lack of unguided (obviously, I started the thread), but I'm a backcountry skier more than a resort skier. Around 75% of my days are in the backcountry, and most of my resort days this year were cruising around with the GF. My opposition to the heli is based on wanting to backcountry ski in cool places without helicopters.

Kinda sick of the implication that everyone opposed to SMG's expansions must have a personal vendetta against Brill/SM. I've been a happy customer and enjoyed several fine days of skiing at SM, one guided, and a bunch of unguided. I'm not even opposed to guided skiing, in fact I generally recommend that people do a guided day their first trip there as it's a great way to learn the mountain. I've never met the Brills (or didn't know it if I did) and have no personal hostility towards them or their operation in general.

[summit]

The real question is: how much of this opposition is an indirect result of not providing unguided skiing and other personal issues people have with SM.

I understand being pissed about the lack of unguided and some of my friends have expressed this as the reason to oppose the heli. For me, that's a separate issue.

How is it separate? The community that can no longer ski their local hill is going to want to tour more instead.

[hatchgreenchile]

The usage numbers were derived from SMG's monitoring of the area in 2016 (an unscientific, clearly biased source) and 14 days of "informal monitoring" by the BLM in 2017. The informal monitoring was conducted from mid-February to mid-March (remember how it didn't snow much then?) While I won't pretend to know what the usage is in those drainages I have a real hard time calling the numbers in the EA conclusive.

I'm irritated by the lack of unguided (obviously, I started the thread), but I'm a backcountry skier more than a resort skier. Around 75% of my days are in the backcountry, and most of my resort days this year were cruising around with the GF. My opposition to the heli is based on wanting to backcountry ski in cool places without helicopters.

Kinda sick of the implication that everyone opposed to SMG's expansions must have a personal vendetta against Brill/SM. I've been a happy customer and enjoyed several fine days of skiing at SM, one guided, and a bunch of unguided. I'm not even opposed to guided skiing, in fact I generally recommend that people do a guided day their first trip there as it's a great way to learn the mountain. I've never met the Brills (or didn't know it if I did) and have no personal hostility towards them or their operation in general. Just because I'm not sucking Aaron's dick doesn't mean I have a vendetta against them.

Well, if you want to get go down the rabbit hole that their affidavits regarding usage numbers are incorrect, as well as the BLMs, go for it. I'll file that with the narrative that the BLM relocated a field manager from AK to Gunnison just to force this deal through.

I'm clearly more resort than backcountry snowboarder, but I support what they are doing down there, but will also not pretend to understand the dynamics of living and building that operation from scratch in San Juan county.

[adrenalated]

Well, if you want to get go down the rabbit hole that their affidavits regarding usage numbers are incorrect, as well as the BLMs, go for it.

I didn't say incorrect. I said inconclusive.

[raisingarizona13]

The local community just needs to put an old lift 2000 feet up the side of Kendal and do a bunch of glading. It would be sweet to have an access lift right in town.

[Buster Highmen]

I'm irritated by the lack of unguided (obviously, I started the thread), but I'm a backcountry skier more than a resort skier. Around 75% of my days are in the backcountry, and most of my resort days this year were cruising around with the GF. My opposition to the heli is based on wanting to backcountry ski in cool places without helicopters.

OK. Let's meet sometime in Silverton and go ski cool places without helis around. I don't like helis or sleds when I'm in the bc either.

Kinda sick of the implication that everyone opposed to SMG's expansions must have a personal vendetta against Brill/SM. I've been a happy customer and enjoyed several fine days of skiing at SM, one guided, and a bunch of unguided. I'm not even opposed to guided skiing, in fact I generally recommend that people do a guided day their first trip there as it's a great way to learn the mountain. I've never met the Brills (or didn't know it if I did) and have no personal hostility towards them or their operation in general.

I'm not implying that everyone does have a personal vendetta.

But I have several friends in town and this is a very hot topic. People get angry which is understandable. It's a hard topic to talk about with my friends there. So it is a factor with some significant people, the locals and it's been easier to talk about when the issues get teased apart. The fact of this thread drift calls out for the distinction.

[Buster Highmen]

How is it separate? The community that can no longer ski their local hill is going to want to tour more instead.

Unguided skiing and the heli operation are 2 very different things.

Again, the people there I know who have been around told me that they don't go into the areas in question during the high season when the heli runs anyway. They concede the difference between the issues and are the ones most affected.

[Buster Highmen]

The local community just needs to put an old lift 2000 feet up the side of Kendal and do a bunch of glading. It would be sweet to have an access lift right in town.

This is being discussed in town.

[summit]

Unguided skiing and the heli operation are 2 very different things.

Again, the people there I know who have been around told me that they don't go into the areas in question during the high season when the heli runs anyway. They concede the difference between the issues and are the ones most affected.

If the heli operation is going to put skiers into the area where the locals are going to access more often since they can't ski at their own hill, then they are linked.

If the there is no user conflict, then they are not linked.

[hatchgreenchile]

I didn't say incorrect. I said inconclusive.

I believe the study was January 1-March 1? I can't find that damn link. Right in line with when they'd want to fly.

[Danno]

They responded to one part of my comments. The response was not unlike the responses I get from emailing Senator Gardner. "Thank you for your comment. Go fuck yourself, we're ignoring it."

Overall the responses to most of the opposed comments mimics the above, and most of the supportive comments the answer was "Thank you for your comment." Most of the positive comments appeared to have been written by SMG or employees of SMG.

To be fair, though, that's pretty much the expected response when you come to a decision, it's not evidence of bias in the decision. If after deliberation you come to a decision and you have to publish something documenting the decision and the comments you received, you're probably going to include more positive responses to the comments that were in favor of your ultimate outcome and be somewhat dismissive of the comments that opposed your ultimate outcome.

As for where the positive comments came from, I have no idea, but SMG and their employees are entitled to comment.

I have no dog in this hunt, just deal with federal agency responses to this kinda stuff on occasion.

[hatchgreenchile]

The local community just needs to put an old lift 2000 feet up the side of Kendal and do a bunch of glading. It would be sweet to have an access lift right in town.

There are some mining roads that go up Kendall, just maintain those, glade some stuff and make it all touring!

[Buster Highmen]

If the heli operation is going to put skiers into the area where the locals are going to access more often since they can't ski at their own hill, then they are linked.

If the there is no user conflict, then they are not linked.

I asked around town and the people I talked to said those areas are not generally used in the winter because they're higher up in the basins. There will be some fly over used areas down low. But from the BLM reports and people I talk to in town, user conflict for ski acreage is not an issue.

There's an awful lot of good touring around CoalBank/Molas/Silverton/Red Mountain Pass.

I know the Brills, not well, but I have a lot of respect for them and they've always treated me and my family extremely well, far beyond anything that's standard.

[grskier]

If the heli operation is going to put skiers into the area where the locals are going to access more often since they can't ski at their own hill, then they are linked.

If the there is no user conflict, then they are not linked.

They may not be mutually exclusive b/c of this, however the unguided days thing as far as quantity of their offer is more linked to Walmart-esque business practices of the industry (their narrative)