WTF Silverton?

[digitaldeath]

choppers are cool

let them fly

[Buster Highmen]

BFD, there's a disconnect between your claims and what SM wrote from my understanding.

SM has spelled out as clearly as they can that the areas they plan to be accessed by heli are above and further in than the road shots and easily accessed areas.

[BFD]

Buster I think you need to take a look at the map yourself. I am comparing the linked blm map to my alpine loop road map that shows local roads. The areas of Minnie and Maggie where they are asking for go all the way to cr2. These drainages are all easily accessed by mining roads and trails as I stated. The areas they left out between Maggie and Cunningham are very definitely used as I pointed out. I believe some of the other area they left out maybe private. Just look at the scale on the blm map and you can see how small this are really is.

[hatchgreenchile]

I don’t have a dog in the fight, but my gut tells me that Silverton helis, and to an extension Helitrax, are not the bad guys. The San Juans are a big place, there’s no gate prohibiting access to these areas if they get approval, and if their policy of avoiding people is in fact accurate, big deal.

I look forward to posting in this thread mid February with some Silverton stoke to balance out the hate.

[BFD]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and i will not call anyone a hypocrite. But you should read the proposal and understand before commenting. If the San Juans are such a large area why does Silverton mountain need this area? Silverton in their proposal admits they ski 95% of the time in one pod. They claim the rest of their area is too wind hammered and avalanche prone to be of use. Basically these guys already have a large area and cannot find descent skiing with a helicopter and explosives. So maybe the San juans are not as large as you think when it comes to skiable terrain.

[Buster Highmen]

Buster I think you need to take a look at the map yourself. I am comparing the linked blm map to my alpine loop road map that shows local roads. The areas of Minnie and Maggie where they are asking for go all the way to cr2. These drainages are all easily accessed by mining roads and trails as I stated. The areas they left out between Maggie and Cunningham are very definitely used as I pointed out. I believe some of the other area they left out maybe private. Just look at the scale on the blm map and you can see how small this are really is.

I have looked at the maps and spent some time in the area.

The point is that SM has written several times that they will avoid conflicts with bc skiers and intend to use the areas outside of what normally gets used by BC skiers. It's part of the proposal. So I'm still not understanding the problem.

I know there's a lot of axes to grind around Silverton. I would like some things to be different there too, but I'm not the guy busting my balls to make skiing available there, so I think it's inappropriate for me to go on about the way I think things should be there. If I have an idea, I'll tell SM in private. I trust them and have a lot of reason to do so. I understand that others feel differently.

Is it possible that this boils down to a credibility issue?

[adrenalated]

the areas they plan to be accessed by heli are above and further in than the road shots and easily accessed areas.

I would argue there is a disconnect between this claim and the reality of the map that SM submitted to the BLM of the terrain that they would like a permit for.
https://eplanning.blm.gov/epl-front-...iew_160817.pdf
This is straight from the BLM's publicly available information.

Although the terrain resolution is low, I would agree that "road shots" - ie runs that drop directly down to CR2 - are excluded. However, the permitted heli terrain clearly extends all the way to the road in Minnie and Maggie Gulches. In Cunningham Gulch, the edge of the permitted area appears to be about 1mi from the road. I would consider all of that to be "easily accessed" terrain.

If SM is truly only planning to use terrain that is "further in" and "not easily accessed" then the proposal and permit should be modified accordingly.

[Buster Highmen]

I would argue there is a disconnect between this claim and the reality of the map that SM submitted to the BLM of the terrain that they would like a permit for.
https://eplanning.blm.gov/epl-front-...iew_160817.pdf
This is straight from the BLM's publicly available information.

Although the terrain resolution is low, I would agree that "road shots" - ie runs that drop directly down to CR2 - are excluded. However, the permitted heli terrain clearly extends all the way to the road in Minnie and Maggie Gulches. In Cunningham Gulch, the edge of the permitted area appears to be about 1mi from the road. I would consider all of that to be "easily accessed" terrain.

If SM is truly only planning to use terrain that is "further in" and "not easily accessed" then the proposal and permit should be modified accordingly.

Here's a video of Cunningham Gulch, showing the choke point at about 0:30.

The Silvertonians I know said nobody goes up there during the winter due to slide exposure.

[hatchgreenchile]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and i will not call anyone a hypocrite. But you should read the proposal and understand before commenting. If the San Juans are such a large area why does Silverton mountain need this area? Silverton in their proposal admits they ski 95% of the time in one pod. They claim the rest of their area is too wind hammered and avalanche prone to be of use. Basically these guys already have a large area and cannot find descent skiing with a helicopter and explosives. So maybe the San juans are not as large as you think when it comes to skiable terrain.

Start up the “you don’t live there, you’ll never understand” chorus for all non SJ county residents stating their opinions, myself included.

I’m sure they’d like (I’ll avoid the use of the word need) to expand for the same reason any company would, so they may offer customers more options, provide quality product more consistently and continue to grow revenue. If the terrain is rarely skied in the first place (if you feel the usage statistics are wrong, that’s a different argument altogether) they’ll avoid anyone who happens to be there, and this provides a little more boost to the local economy (not to be discounted), I don’t see the problem.

[Cosmic Suncloud]

The Silvertonians I know said nobody goes up there during the winter due to slide exposure.

¿oh veramente?




heh- no dog in the fight, but these decisions are usually best made locally

[TAFKALVS]

I might be missing something, but in an area like the San Juans with a touchy snowpack, wouldn't a little more skier compaction make things safer for everybody? Sure you might cross a track here and there if it hasn't snowed in awhile but if it means less concerns about a PWL I'd think that's a positive?

[Buster Highmen]

¿oh veramente?

hey you! yes...you might know dean & paula a little

heh- no dog in the fight, but these decisions are usually best made locally

so why is this being discussed here?

[Cosmic Suncloud]

"local" meaning it would be better to sort out these types of land use issues within the local jurisdictions, rather than having the feds decide. personally i think it would be better for the feds to defer more often to local jurisdictions on public land matters that do not serve a significant national interest. maybe that's what's happening here - i don't know.

why is it discussed here? - isn't this the center of universe?

[dunfree]

I might be missing something, but in an area like the San Juans with a touchy snowpack, wouldn't a little more skier compaction make things safer for everybody? Sure you might cross a track here and there if it hasn't snowed in awhile but if it means less concerns about a PWL I'd think that's a positive?

A little more skier compaction (and in this study that's a "tracked out" run) isn't going to make that much of a difference in avalanche risk
https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...Compaction.pdf

[adrenalated]

I might be missing something, but in an area like the San Juans with a touchy snowpack, wouldn't a little more skier compaction make things safer for everybody? Sure you might cross a track here and there if it hasn't snowed in awhile but if it means less concerns about a PWL I'd think that's a positive?

600 user days spread over 25,074 acres is unlikely to create a meaningful level of skier compaction IMO.

[Buster Highmen]

"local" meaning it would be better to sort out these types of land use issues within the local jurisdictions, rather than having the feds decide. personally i think it would be better for the feds to defer more often to local jurisdictions on public land matters that do not serve a significant national interest. maybe that's what's happening here - i don't know.

I misunderthought. Ma mal.

But remember Silverton voted in ATVs in town and now regret it. How many 'flight for lifes' were there last summer? Not to mention some pretty unneighborly behavior on the part of the ATV crowd around town.

I'm pretty sure some of this comes from an old rift between members of the Silverton community and SM.

why is it discussed here? - isn't this the center of universe?

We don't discuss things here really, just toss around a bunch of tired and inappropriate predispositions.

[Buster Highmen]

600 user days spread over 25,074 acres is unlikely to create a meaningful level of skier compaction IMO.

Tiger blew out huDGE a couple of years ago after a big wind event, completely filled the gully, took out a wad of trees and made it so you could ski right to the road, no climbing necessary. The snow dam was ugly.
So, yeah, skier compaction may not do that much.

Anyway, it boils down to a trust issue. I'll trust SM to be reasonable in their heli use. Note the absence of any complaints in the last 8 years or whatever it's been since they started running helis.

[BFD]

hey you! yes...you might know dean & paula a little



so why is this being discussed here?

I believe this is a skiing forum and the issue is skiing related. As i said in an earlier post this is BLM land every citizen is entitled to an opinion and comment on how our lands are used. Did the Bundy's live in Oregon? But yes the issue will probably decided locally. I now live in the San Juans so I guess I can be local.
I really do not see how you rule out conflict in a small area like this. Silverton plans to use explosives for avalanche control. The only way this is possible is to close off an area meaning exclude other users. This is just the obvious not to take into consideration noise and sequencing of users on the slope. Uphill verse downhill users.
As for the guy busting his balls to make skiing available. Who is he making skiing available to. This area is already available to everyone. I went to Silverton and thought he had a cool little operation there. The lift was closed but I actually tried to pay for heli time. I was told a private had it booked and yes one guy was in it. This thread started because Silverton decided to get rid of unguided skiing. So apparently they only care about those wanting to pay for guided and farm powder. Is this your average skier. I have been hearing how great the heli skiing experience is there I even attempted to go. Now I see that 95% of their heli skiing is in one place. So now it occurs to me poor Silverton Mountain is busting his balls for a small wealthy clientle and a few of his guides who are tired of flying the same terrain. You know you can put so many different colors of lip stick on a pig but sooner or later you realize your kissing the same pig.
I went to Silverton to see the area and check out their operation. I looked over the area and chose an area to ski that was not near the heli area and looked good. I had no issue they were easy to avoid. Even Silverton admits they have no conflicts now. I can respect that. Now I see that now Silverton wants the easily accessed area that I skied and was looking forward to skiing again. Now we have a conflict.
As far as Silverton Mountain being a big contributor to the economy I do not know. I know that on my visit the lift was closed they were not bringing many people in that day. My partner who I met at the hostel and I both came with no real intentions of skiing the Silverton lifts but put money in the economy. Although I probably bought cheaper booze than Buster. In my opinion this new area will do little to bring in new business to Silverton. The only purpose is to appease the current users that Silverton has chosen to cater to. Obviously not me maybe you.

[Buster Highmen]

I don't heli ski @ SM often, maybe 2 laps a year. I usually ride the lifts or tour (not in any of the proposed zones), so the proposal wouldn't affect me directly.
In many economic scenarios, one portion of the business can help justify another, so I have hopes that this would be the case here.

I do think SM deserves more respect, especially in conflicts like these.

I support the expansion.

[Lostmyboards]

The one great day I was there, a group of 2 died on the neighboring uncontrolled mountain to the north. I nearly never ski out of bounds, too scared, experienced, wise, ignorant, whatever. I grew up in CO, cut my teeth at A-Basin, rode an uncontrolled slide down Polly. I stay in the safe zone. I really appreciated that our guide Mike was taking us to very fun and safe zones. He read our group well, and gave us a great time. Whatever they need to do to succeed is ok with me. This side country experience was great. Can't wait to do it again.

[hatchgreenchile]

I've heard Polly is quite the ride, she hangs out at Snake River, right?

[capulin overdrive]

I misunderthought. Ma mal.

But remember Silverton voted in ATVs in town and now regret it. How many 'flight for lifes' were there last summer? Not to mention some pretty unneighborly behavior on the part of the ATV crowd around town.

I'm pretty sure some of this comes from an old rift between members of the Silverton community and SM.

We don't discuss things here really, just toss around a bunch of tired and inappropriate predispositions.

ATV shenanigans , or really to be specific Side by Sides are coming to a boil in lots of other places as well. Fat skis of the motorized toys!

[skier666]

I've seen the ATV posse when driving up the Jeep Road over Imogene Pass from Telluride. Old timer Jeep Tour drivers say in the last few years, the amount of ATV has skyrocketed to the point that the quality of the roads have deteriorated.

[happytimefunbox]

I don’t have a dog in the fight, but my gut tells me that Silverton helis, and to an extension Helitrax, are not the bad guys. The San Juans are a big place, there’s no gate prohibiting access to these areas if they get approval, and if their policy of avoiding people is in fact accurate, big deal.

I look forward to posting in this thread mid February with some Silverton stoke to balance out the hate.

Im also not a dogfighter and Ive never skied SM (yet) but I do have some perspective...

Where I tour it is the busiest BC zone in the country maybe the world. We have a heliop that gives zero fucks about local feedback, intruding on your peaceful wilderness experience or dropping a boatful of fat texans on your head when your a switchback away from first tracks in west bowl that took you 15 minutes to get to from your car.

Count me in for April 20th SM heli bumps with sfb, bakerbob, buster and iceman...

[Ottime]

If you don't do that, you run the high risk of getting stuck with a semi-random group of beaters for $120 so you can pow-farm mid angle for 3-4 runs.

THAT is why unguided is better.

That was my experience. I was in Tride w my wife for a week. I took one day to drive over to Silverton. It had not snowed in a week plus; snow was okay, but certainly not great. That was not really the issue for me. My group was made up of me, two snowboarders and a group of skiers who were friends with the guide. We skied the same lame front side gully three times because the friends liked the run and did not want to hike too far. And they were fucking slow. Not to mention one snowboarder got too low on the backside one run, and we all had to go down Two Smokes, which took forever, because like I said they were fucking slow.

I vowed to only go back for unguided or make my own group of eight. The mountain and experience were cool enough. Had I known our afternoon was only going to be two runs down the frontside (Tiger?) gully, I would have paid for a heli drop off the ridge. I had more money back then.