WTF Silverton?

[Buster Highmen]

Well this whole thing went off the rails quickly....

The real skiers debate is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is that Silverton originally formed to provide a ski-centered experience to expert skiers. No real estate, no glitz, no glam, no bullshit. Just skiing. It doesn't fucking matter if you're a "real skier" or not; in fact, that was exactly the point of Silverton's original mission. It wasn't about your social status (and let's face it, whether or not you're a "real skier" or a "ski bum" is a form of social status). It was about skiing. Full stop.

True.

In the past, with a greater variety of guided and unguided skiing available, there were opportunities for many to enjoy the mountain. Expert skiers that had limited financial resources and/or just didn't enjoy the experience of being put in a group with a guide that tells you where to ski and when could buy an unguided ticket on several weekends per year, and rage to their hearts content. Expert skiers that have greater financial resources that preferred to ski the best and softest snow available would find value in paying a knowledgeable person to show them the best snow available on the mountain that day.

True.

Neither group is wrong. Neither is right. Neither is better than the other, when you're evaluating this from the perspective of "what was the original mission?" The original mission wasn't "hey, let's create a guided experience that will lead reasonably wealthy clients to good snow on steep terrain." It was, "let's make this a haven for good skiers to ski steep soft snow." The current slow elimination of unguided days is enabling the former, not the latter.

As I've said, I don't blame them. From a business standpoint it makes sense. 100%. But don't try to tell me Silverton is all about the skiing anymore, like it was originally intended to be, because it ain't.

Hmm the phraseology is a little rough there. It's still about the skiing, just not the way it's been with unguided.

As for the price: Silverton guided at $120 may very well be a good value, depending on what you're looking for. If you're looking for good terrain, good snow, and a guide, and you can only ski a couple weekends a year and are paying window rates, then sure it's a good value. If you're looking for good to great terrain, more flexibility to chase good snow, more flexibility to ski how and where you want without a guide, then areas like Crested Butte (where 2-for-1 tickets and free days on season passes are readily available), or Mtn Collective areas like Telluride, Aspen, Jackson, Taos, or AltaBird can offer more value. And if simply skiing untracked snow if your goal, then backcountry skiing may be even more rewarding.

Comparing SM to other areas is comparing apples to oranges. Silverton is entirely different from a resort experience. Guided has is drawbacks, but it's also nice not to have to rush to the stashes and get all hyped about that.

I don't mean to diminish the significance of less unguided, I get that. It's just that guided is not just 3 or 4 runs a day and there's some great people that love to ski there. I can do without the bro-elitism.

[digitaldeath]

I wonder how a real skier like me would rate silverton

Do the guides critique your form?

120 for a guide sounds like a good deal

Send me 500$ and I'll post a review and a TR in 2017

[adrenalated]

I wonder how a real skier like me would rate silverton

I'm fairly certain that at Silverton, when you poach an area that is undergoing active avalanche mitigation work, they don't call the sheriff, they just blow your ass up.

Comparing SM to other areas is comparing apples to oranges.

Then why did you do it? You're the one that brought up SM being a good deal at $120 compared to other ski areas in Colorado.

[stuckathuntermtn]

I'm fairly certain that at Silverton, when you poach an area that is undergoing active avalanche mitigation work, they don't call the sheriff, they just blow your ass up.
...

We should be so lucky.

[Bunion 2020]

None of us really understand how much work it is to run a ski area. I'd imagine that they're just trimming down the $/headache.

Really? None of us?

That said, It is the Brill's Operation and they can do as they see fit.

120 for a day may not suit a lot of Dirtbags but it still isn't an unreasonable price and I can see the logic.

Whatever.

[hatchgreenchile]

Lots of animosity and bittneress from the real skiers, yikes. Maybe the guides should have taken you down Gnar Couloir after all.
I'm looking forward to getting there this mid winter.
It should be fun, regardless of snow depth

[Foggy_Goggles]

I'll try and stick to the facts

1. A unguided day in $159
2. Unguided skiing is a relatively recent addition to the menu, 15 years ago it was guided only
3. Love it or hate it, Silverton is a success. They have made it 15 years despite a very long list of challenges. I believe their safety record is pretty good.
4. Make no mistake about it, it is Aaron and Jen Brills' ski area. They do it their way. You might not like it, but you should respect it. Now they have a fuckin' helicopter.

Summit, I don't know if you know Buster or not. He's a know friend of mine so I don't want to seem to be coming to his defense. That said, you saying he's not a "real skier" is pretty offensive. If there is a definition of a "real skier", he could be the picture in the dictionary. I know of very few people that truly appreciate the ability to buckle the boots up and spend a day in the mountains as much as he does. Sometimes I think the more sacrifices you make, the more you enjoy things.

Even the concept that their is a "real skier" bugs me. The kid from Texas that comes on vacation and first feels the rush of the wind in his face as new power wedges down his first blue square, that is a "real skier". I owe almost everything in my life to the enjoyment I get from skiing. I have gone though a few phases where I thought that the juice wasn't worth the squeeze and that skiing would take a back seat in my life. I don't ski as much as I used to and I am weighed down with the responsibilities of life, but I still thing I'm a "real skier". If I'm doing in wrong, let me know.

[Name Redacted]

So where are you guys getting $120 for guided from? Website says $159, so did they up it? And check out the rates for private, whoa!

http://silvertonmountain.com/mountain/pricing/

[hatchgreenchile]

All time mag summit , book the whole mountain for a day. 🏻

[summit]

2. Unguided skiing is a relatively recent addition to the menu, 15 years ago it was guided only

Unguided started in 2006. I enjoyed it for ten years and it sucks it is gone.

3. Love it or hate it, Silverton is a success. They have made it 15 years despite a very long list of challenges. I believe their safety record is pretty good.
4. Make no mistake about it, it is Aaron and Jen Brills' ski area. They do it their way. You might not like it, but you should respect it.

From my first post in the thread, I said Brills can do whatever they want. I used to like what they did. Now I don't. Buster thinks not liking it = disrespect resulting in many amusing posts.

Summit, I don't know if you know Buster or not. He's a know friend of mine so I don't want to seem to be coming to his defense. That said, you saying he's not a "real skier" is pretty offensive.

Sorry about the whole "real skier" thing, had no idea people would get so worked up about that term. Way more thought put into it by others after the fact vs the no thought I gave it when posting. What did I mean?

Buster's says no biggie: $160 guided is a great deal compared to Aspen day tickets if you are a wealthy out of state tourist... mostly the opposite of the unguided skier. If the previously unguided are going to ski guided, they need to put together a crew big enough to book a full group to avoid the downsides of guided skiing. And that is hard to do on short notice. Buster's answer was he doesn't need short notice because he has it all booked ahead of time and has different standards. But most of the unguided skiers were following conditions, not booking airfare and hotels weeks ahead.

But since Buster won't acknowledge the legitimacy at that viewpoint, I quipped about "real skiers." I guess, what I mean to say, was "you are losing out if you regularly lock up a very specific trip itinerary ahead of time but have a primary goal of getting the best snow for your time." I don't care if you are booking Silverton for Jan, Alta in Feb, or an Alaska heli week in March. That is dumb in my book because there is a better way to do it. I'm not a wealthy 65 year old with 3 kids living in a no-skiing state, but Buster could do it too if he wanted. He doesn't care. He is happy. That is fine. DIFFERENT STANDARDS.

All time mag summit , book the whole mountain for a day. ��

Wait, I went from paying $50 for unguided to being a candidate for renting out the mountain?

[Foggy_Goggles]

Thanks for explaining that. Seriously. Overly simplified, the unguided product doesn't exist the way it used to an that sucks for those that consumed the unguided product.

I have a bit of a different philosophy regarding chasing pow. My free time is really dedicated to spending time with my friends and family. Luckily for me, my great friends and my wife are skiers. I'm all about enjoying the experience of just being not working and out in the mountains. The lift served pow chase sometimes results put it is not really the goal. I've got friends in the Tetons, WA, Central Colorado, the San Juans, Europe and SLC that I don't get to see enough. When I visit, we usually go skiing. If the skiing sucks we'll go XC or fishing or something.

[Foggy_Goggles]

double post

[hatchgreenchile]

Wait, I went from paying $50 for unguided to being a candidate for renting out the mountain?

Mag summit does not equal Summit , but if you're volunteering to front the bills, by all means, have at it

[TAFKALVS]

Mag summit does not equal Summit , but if you're volunteering to front the bills, by all means, have at it

167 of us would need to show up and we'd be down to the $59 unguided rate... April mag summit at Silverton?

[digitaldeath]

would people be happy with the term "superior skier" as opposed to just "real skier"


sounds like an aspen day ticket is more bang for your buck

am i wrong? rarely

[PNWbrit]

It's pretty amusing to watch Summit's failings about Buster's Silverton methodologies, knowledge and habits.

He really has no fucking clue.

[ACH]

Summit, I empathize with you not being happy with the shift, I get it...
The reality is, change is a constant, and it happens a lot with all manor of product and services as companies evolve and figure out what is profitable and what is not. As Foggy mentioned, the Brill's can and do what they want.
Nature abhors a vacuum, and I imagine you (and other like minded skiers) will find something else that fits the bill as a replacement.

Now wipes those tears... you are sounding as riled up as Bunny, old man.

He has more skin in the game than you do, show a little respect.

And the whole "real skier shit" g-buzz-wtf..
I've skied nearly all my life, and I have seen many "real skiers", they aren't just one flavor my friend, they come in all shapes and sizes.
Call it what it is, this is your flavor...
That’s cool, carry on, gitsome, post stoke, repeat...

I'll try and stick to the facts

1. A unguided day in $159
2. Unguided skiing is a relatively recent addition to the menu, 15 years ago it was guided only
3. Love it or hate it, Silverton is a success. They have made it 15 years despite a very long list of challenges. I believe their safety record is pretty good.
4. Make no mistake about it, it is Aaron and Jen Brills' ski area. They do it their way. You might not like it, but you should respect it. Now they have a fuckin' helicopter.

Summit, I don't know if you know Buster or not. He's a know friend of mine so I don't want to seem to be coming to his defense. That said, you saying he's not a "real skier" is pretty offensive. If there is a definition of a "real skier", he could be the picture in the dictionary. I know of very few people that truly appreciate the ability to buckle the boots up and spend a day in the mountains as much as he does. Sometimes I think the more sacrifices you make, the more you enjoy things.

Even the concept that their is a "real skier" bugs me. The kid from Texas that comes on vacation and first feels the rush of the wind in his face as new power wedges down his first blue square, that is a "real skier". I owe almost everything in my life to the enjoyment I get from skiing. I have gone though a few phases where I thought that the juice wasn't worth the squeeze and that skiing would take a back seat in my life. I don't ski as much as I used to and I am weighed down with the responsibilities of life, but I still thing I'm a "real skier". If I'm doing in wrong, let me know.

Right on brother!

Mag summit does not equal Summit , but if you're volunteering to front the bills, by all means, have at it

167 of us would need to show up and we'd be down to the $59 unguided rate... April mag summit at Silverton?

Yeah, but, what an epic Summit it would be...
I doubt there are enough beds in Silverton to accommodate overnight accommodations though.

[TAFKALVS]

Yeah, but, what an epic Summit it would be...
I doubt there are enough beds in Silverton to accommodate overnight accommodations though.

We could camp.

[grskier]

Yeah, the trick is to go with your posse and get your own group so that when you end up in the fast skier/ fast hiker group... during guided. now that it's mostly guided...

I have heard a few stories about yahoos poaching zones during unguided days and putting lots of people at risk. I'm sure with their insurance rate going up 400% or whatever the article said played into it as well.

I'll go back still, but I'll also make sure there are at least 6 of us.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Most of the douchy behavior I've seen at Silverton is the the "fast skier/fast hiker" groups. I could right a "how to Silverton" thread but I'm sure nobody cares. I will say this, your guide will be keying in on your group dynamic from moment one. You need to help and encourage each other. Any animosity will be viewed as a threat to the group's safety which is the primary concern. If you get all pissy, your group will be on a short leash. If you work well as a team and can be trusted, you'll be guided into some more premium terrain. The guides all but tell you this. If you don't have the patience for the system, Silverton ain't for you.

[goldenboy]

The proposed heli expansion onto county road 2 areas would suck ass. Locals do ski there, especially from March onward.

[Bruce Springskiin]

My experience included a last minute solo trip mid winter, because it was snowing. I was forewarned about getting in a group that did not fit. Best advice ever. If you can, start picking your group in the bar/restaurant/hotel the night before. Find out where the people like to ski regularly, how much they like to ski, their fitness. And then it is up to you to make the group work, and not be the junk show or ass. Made good friends that day, keep in touch with some, some I could call upon to ski with again whenever I wanted.
Sure I can understand people being upset about the loss of the unguided days, but I would rather see that than real estate or guest pampering

[Silverton Mt]

Surprised it took as long as it did for this to become a topic of discussion.. Much of what has been posted is correct, including the comments about risk to reward ratio. We wanted to continue with more unguided skiing and have tried each year to offer more, but have been fighting the economics of it since the beginning. It's really a complex issue that is tied into the evolution of the ski industry season pass i.e. Epic Pass, which as devalued the day ticket as smaller areas.

When you get so much skiing with an Epic Pass people don't purchase as many day tickets anymore and small areas have a tough time selling season passes at a price that covers operating expenses. It has required adapting to the ever changing ski market or get left behind and risk ending up like Berthoud or other gems that didn't make it off of lift ticket sales.

When the BLM decided to require extensive avalanche control and roping /signage etc 15 years ago for unguided skiing it changed the original vision before it was given a chance to succeed. One lift, with unlimited access was the goal, but that turned out to be too much of a risk for the BLM to agree to participate. We have a link on our site to a blog about it. Its a really complicated issue that Hal Clifford could write another book about as it skiing continues to evolve into a more corporate commodity where you may need to own 5 resorts to even compete these days.

http://silvertonmountain.com/expanded-guided-season/

[Silverton Mt]

The heli proposal excludes all the skiing down to County Road 2. We dropped that from the proposal after listening to feedback. We also have a standing written commitment to avoid touring skiers and relocate to other zones if encountered.

[Buster Highmen]

One more time:

Buster's says no biggie: $160 guided is a great deal compared to Aspen day tickets if you are a wealthy out of state tourist... mostly the opposite of the unguided skier.

To set things straight, I wrote:
Unguided was sure fun, but I understand that given some douchebags behavior and the relatively (to the guided season) small revenue, it wasn't worth the hassle.

Still when you compare skiing at a lot of CO places for $120+/day, their guided season still gets me to the goods.

To which summit responds:
Nobody who skied Silverton unguided buys $120 day tickets at Vail/Aspen

But I skied there guided, unguided, booked, walk on, whatever. I know a few Silvertonians who do buy day tickets at T-ride, Aspen, W/BC and elsewhere. We count.

I later go on to say:
Not that I wouldn't love to freeski there. I respect the Brills so all the love and kudos to them for putting it together.

If the previously unguided are going to ski guided, they need to put together a crew big enough to book a full group to avoid the downsides of guided skiing. And that is hard to do on short notice. Buster's answer was he doesn't need short notice because he has it all booked ahead of time and has different standards. But most of the unguided skiers were following conditions, not booking airfare and hotels weeks ahead.

I don't always have it booked ahead of time, I just go when I have some time. Sometimes I fly down on short notice, sometimes I'm there for a month, sometimes friends show up and a couple or 4 of us will hook up with some others and have a great time. In my experience, random hook ups can result in 6 or 7 run days.

I don't have the stats to talk about 'most'. I really question whether summit does.

But since Buster won't acknowledge the legitimacy at that viewpoint, I quipped about "real skiers."

You misunderstand me. I accept the legitimacy of the viewpoint on unguided, I have a lot of friends who would LOVE to be able to freeski SM. I get it the view point, it's pretty obvious. I feel badly for my friends and I thought I had expressed that where I supported shredgnar's lamentation.

Asserting that one can not do what I often do in terms of hooking up with random guided groups as some hardcoded rule is a fallacy. I definitely did not write that I had it booked ahead of time because sometimes I don't.

My problem is when summit misunderstands what people are writing, he makes things up about "most" or 'usually' that isn't complimentary to SM, doesn't represent my experience and likely has no basis in reality.

I guess, what I mean to say, was "you are losing out if you regularly lock up a very specific trip itinerary ahead of time but have a primary goal of getting the best snow for your time." I don't care if you are booking Silverton for Jan, Alta in Feb, or an Alaska heli week in March. That is dumb in my book because there is a better way to do it. I'm not a wealthy 65 year old with 3 kids living in a no-skiing state, but Buster could do it too if he wanted. He doesn't care. He is happy. That is fine. DIFFERENT STANDARDS.

I don't call people 'wealthy', 'rich' , 'tourists', 'old', 'dumb' or other pejoratives.

I called summit a dick because I find these pejoratives irrelevant, offensive and inaccurate. Not being able to leave at the drop of a hat does not disqualify one from loving skiing or being a certified member of some 'real skier' club.

So to summarize, I understand the loss of unguided blows for a lot of people. My sincere condolences.

But there's still great skiing at Silverton.

On my local weekend warrior experiences at the local hills, I contrast the crowds, the liftlines, the density of people in that experience and for me, trading off a little freedom for an experience where I'm not worried about being hit or slid or snaked by hordes of snotty aggros, it's a reasonable trade. If it's not for you, I wouldn't exclude you from my 'club' if I had one.