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  1. #1
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    Cramping during and after rides

    Cramping has been an issue so I finally tried "Hot Shot" before my road ride last night. The Hot Shot people have an Interesting theory that nerves are more to blame than muscles.

    So, the ride. Figuring that if the stuff works or not would quickly be proven shortly after warm-up was finished and I started to get a little push into it.

    I gave a strong push on an easy climb, no cramp. Pushed harder still, pushed harder yet and etcetera until, at 3/4 distance, I was wound out on a flat in 50 x 13*. Finally when the ride was done the average MPH was up one full MPH and aside from one moment of an incipient cramp in both gastrocs (hard accelleration while over revving.... yeah, I know, stupid, but shit happens), no cramping during, after or today. Today there is some twitching due to having pushed so hard yesterday, so I'll assume the stuff doesn't vaccinate against cramps, just holds them off for a while.

    The downside is that single shots of the stuff costs seven USD. Bulk and subscription pricing is better, but not a lot better.

    Should I try making my own...being a cheapskate, I believe I shall. Anybody else tried?

    * winding out 50 x 13 on a flat section (no tailwind or roll-in, just decided to pick it up a bit), while not impressive in the larger picture, still represents my best in quite some time.
    The sad truth is that whine does not age well

  2. #2
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    Midol?

  3. #3
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    I've been having some cramping issues this summer, usually from pushing hard to keep up with faster friends in techy terrain. Have tried lime juice + maple syrup in a water bottle recently and would say there has been a very marginal improvement. Off the bike I play a lot of beach volleyball and have made mustardy-y potato salad my go to snack between matches and that has been good even on very hot and humid days.

    From what I could find about Hot Shot.. it could be pickle juice with some spices and other nutrients? Just curious if you have a recipe in mind for DIY. I would certainly give it a go for another data point.

  4. #4
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    Take magnesium, potassium and sodium. $7 for a "Hot Shot"?

    I've been taking a supplement every morning for 20 years that has the above salts and almost never cramp even during or after all day ski tours, bike rides and hikes/trail runs at medium to high intensity. Emergen-C works and is cheap when compared to something like Hot Shot. Occasionally in the summer or in winter on hut trips I've used Electro-Mix to supplement the electrolytes. I'm sure you can get these electrolyte supplements even cheaper.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronWright View Post
    Take magnesium, potassium and sodium. $7 for a "Hot Shot"?

    I've been taking a supplement every morning for 20 years that has the above salts and almost never cramp even during or after all day ski tours, bike rides and hikes/trail runs at medium to high intensity. Emergen-C works and is cheap when compared to something like Hot Shot. Occasionally in the summer or in winter on hut trips I've used Electro-Mix to supplement the electrolytes. I'm sure you can get these electrolyte supplements even cheaper.
    Been using Emergen-C since the 70's. It's not enough. Been suplementing for 40 years...not enough. Been using Skratch Exercise Hydration Mix....it's working to keep me sweating but hasn't helped much for the cramping.

    The cramping is new....it wasn't a factor when I was racing in the 70's and 80's.

    The nerve thing seems solid...the 7 bucks seems outrageous
    The sad truth is that whine does not age well

  6. #6
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    Electrolytes are what keep the neuromuscular pathways working properly. I'm not questioning their science, but proper nutrition would seem to be the true preventative measure. Maybe the cramps are an age things for you and maybe me too. Maybe when I'm your age I will start to get them more. I don't know the answer, just what anecdotally works for me and many others, yourself included until now.

    Save your pickle juice.

  7. #7
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    What AW says. He's a medical pro.

    For 25+ years I've been an experiment of one re cramping during exercise, an outlier among endurance athletes, 240-250 lbs., heavy sweater, completed 88 ultramarathons, 4 transUSA bicycle rides and lots of other big endurance days, history of cramping on long strenuous events in hot weather. The most cost effective anti-cramping supplements that work for me to prevent cramping:

    Kirkland Signature (Costco) Ca+Mg+Zn supplement taken an hour or so before exercise and every few hours on a long strenuous day, e.g., hilly 50K ultra. These have worked as well as the expensive CalMag supplements, e.g. Sportleggs. One $13 bottle from Costco lasts me six months or so.

    Succeed S-cap electrolyte tabs taken with water during exercise. Dosage depends on my sweat rate and internal signs (i.e., bloated stomach > more tabs; mild nausea > fewer tabs). S-caps is owned by a research scientist and endurance athlete who analyzed sweat of numerous athletes and formulated S-caps to replace the electrolytes that people sweat out. 1 S-cap provides equivalent Na as several caps of other formulations (e.g. E-caps), buffered to prevent stomach issues. S-caps are the most popular electrolyte caps in the ultrarunning community.

    ETA: IME, eating solid foods during endurance events can worsen cramps. Better to keep your stomach empty to better absorb water and electrolytes. I sometimes eat after 5 hours or so in an event. YMMV of course.

  8. #8
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    Im a cramper too. Try natural forms of food: fig newtons, kiwis, pickles etc. I stick Kiwis in my pocket and eat them fur and all. If you feel a cramp coming on try and flex the opposite muscle as much as possible. When you flex your quad your brain tells your hamstring to relax and vice versa.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Steve View Post
    What AW says. He's a medical pro.

    For 25+ years I've been an experiment of one re cramping during exercise, an outlier among endurance athletes, 240-250 lbs., heavy sweater, completed 88 ultramarathons, 4 transUSA bicycle rides and lots of other big endurance days, history of cramping on long strenuous events in hot weather. The most cost effective anti-cramping supplements that work for me to prevent cramping:

    Kirkland Signature (Costco) Ca+Mg+Zn supplement taken an hour or so before exercise and every few hours on a long strenuous day, e.g., hilly 50K ultra. These have worked as well as the expensive CalMag supplements, e.g. Sportleggs. One $13 bottle from Costco lasts me six months or so.

    Succeed S-cap electrolyte tabs taken with water during exercise. Dosage depends on my sweat rate and internal signs (i.e., bloated stomach > more tabs; mild nausea > fewer tabs). S-caps is owned by a research scientist and endurance athlete who analyzed sweat of numerous athletes and formulated S-caps to replace the electrolytes that people sweat out. 1 S-cap provides equivalent Na as several caps of other formulations (e.g. E-caps), buffered to prevent stomach issues. S-caps are the most popular electrolyte caps in the ultrarunning community.

    ETA: IME, eating solid foods during endurance events can worsen cramps. Better to keep your stomach empty to better absorb water and electrolytes. I sometimes eat after 5 hours or so in an event. YMMV of course.
    I'm no pro when it comes to physiology, but I work with some very smart people who are also athletes(some pretty accomplished) and I pay attention and ask them about these things. Magnesium is the most overlooked and under consumed of the electrolytes essential for delaying or preventing cramping from what I've gleaned. Potassium and Sodium are easy.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrox View Post
    Should I try making my own...being a cheapskate, I believe I shall. Anybody else tried?
    Cramps have been a problem for me too for the last 4-5 years. Never had a problem before that. Like you I thought the Hot Shot looked legit but balked at the price. I was going to try DIYing some but then broke my scapula mid-August and haven't had a reason to try. It seems like it should be pretty easy though. If you look at the ingredients it's just a sugar solution with salt, lime juice, ginger, cinnamon and capsaicin. My plan was to:

    -Mix up a sugar/salt solution and bring to a boil. The Hot Shot nutrition info lists 10g of sugar per 1.7 oz shot, which works out to 5.9g or ~1.5 tsp sugar per ounce of water. That seems really sweet to me so I may cut it back to 1 tsp/oz to start and add more at the end to taste if needed. They use very little salt, 40 mg sodium per 1.7 oz. 1 tsp of table salt is 2,300 mg sodium, so you only need 1/12 tsp/8 oz water to get 40 mg/1.7 oz.

    -Once at a boil, remove from the heat and add in a bunch of grated fresh ginger, ground cinnamon, and cayenne pepper. Per 8 oz of sugar/salt solution I'm thinking maybe 4 oz ginger (by volume, packed), 1 Tbs cinnamon and 0.5-1 tsp cayenne. Let that steep until it has cooled to room temp.

    -Add a couple ounces of white vinegar or lime juice. Hot shot uses lime juice, but I'm thinking that the vinegar may store better and be a more effective preservative. Plus, vinegar has a proven track record, i.e., pickle juice usage.

    One thing Hot Shot doesn't use that I may add when I finally try this is glycine powder. It's an inhibitory neurotransmitter so it fits in with the overall theory. Plus, it's very sweet and makes an excellent sugar substitute. Cheap too, you can buy a pound on Amazon for ~$10.

    As for storage, I'm thinking these would work well: https://www.amazon.com/Mini-Shot-Bel...2Bbottles&th=1

    Quote Originally Posted by AaronWright View Post
    Electrolytes are what keep the neuromuscular pathways working properly. I'm not questioning their science, but proper nutrition would seem to be the true preventative measure. Maybe the cramps are an age things for you and maybe me too. Maybe when I'm your age I will start to get them more. I don't know the answer, just what anecdotally works for me and many others, yourself included until now.

    Save your pickle juice.
    Electrolyte depletion causing cramps is a myth that has been thoroughly disproven but still pervasive in popular culture. Broscience, basically. The best current research indicates that cramps are caused by fatigue-induced overstimulation of motor neurons and concurrent inhibition of the golgi tendon organ. It appears that the reason pickle juice and the like relieve cramps is not because they replace electrolytes, but because they stimulate the TRP ion channels in your mouth, esophagus and stomach. Stimulation of the TRP ion channels causes a systemic effect that calms the motor neuron overstimulation and stops the cramp. Pretty crazy stuff really.

    http://www.gustrength.com/physiology...-cramps-part-i
    Last edited by Dantheman; 09-23-2016 at 12:24 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhelihiker View Post
    I stick Kiwis in my pocket and eat them fur and all.
    I feel like there's a TR in there somewhere.

  12. #12
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    The study most often cited to debunk the electrolyte depletion theory of cramping involved only 13 subjects and concluded that electrolyte ingestion did indeed delay the onset of cramping in most of the subjects. Some people see in that study what they want to see. I don't know if any of those 13 participants have blood chemistry anything close to mine. (Cf., My wife, who has run 100 mile ultras, ridden 1200km rando events, ironman tris, etc., etc., never takes electrolytes and never cramps, but also doesn't sweat much.)

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    Cramps have been a problem for me too for the last 4-5 years. Never had a problem before that. Like you I thought the Hot Shot looked legit but balked at the price. I was going to try DIYing some but then broke my scapula mid-August and haven't had a reason to try. It seems like it should be pretty easy though. If you look at the ingredients it's just a sugar solution with salt, lime juice, ginger, cinnamon and capsaicin. My plan was to:

    -Mix up a sugar/salt solution and bring to a boil. The Hot Shot nutrition info lists 10g of sugar per 1.7 oz shot, which works out to 5.9g or ~1.5 tsp sugar per ounce of water. That seems really sweet to me so I may cut it back to 1 tsp/oz to start and add more at the end to taste if needed. They use very little salt, 40 mg sodium per 1.7 oz. 1 tsp of table salt is 2,300 mg sodium, so you only need 1/12 tsp/8 oz water to get 40 mg/1.7 oz.

    -Once at a boil, remove from the heat and add in a bunch of grated fresh ginger, ground cinnamon, and cayenne pepper. Per 8 oz of sugar/salt solution I'm thinking maybe 4 oz ginger (by volume, packed), 1 Tbs cinnamon and 0.5-1 tsp cayenne. Let that steep until it has cooled to room temp.

    -Add a couple ounces of white vinegar or lime juice. Hot shot uses lime juice, but I'm thinking that the vinegar may store better and be a more effective preservative. Plus, vinegar has a proven track record, i.e., pickle juice usage.

    One thing Hot Shot doesn't use that I may add when I finally try this is glycine powder. It's an inhibitory neurotransmitter so it fits in with the overall theory. Plus, it's very sweet and makes an excellent sugar substitute. Cheap too, you can buy a pound on Amazon for ~$10.



    Electrolyte depletion causing cramps is a myth that has been thoroughly disproven but still pervasive in popular culture. Broscience, basically. The best current research indicates that cramps are caused by fatigue-induced overstimulation of motor neurons and concurrent inhibition of the golgi tendon organ. It appears that the reason pickle juice and the like relieve cramps is not because they replace electrolytes, but because they stimulate the TRP ion channels in your mouth, esophagus and stomach. Stimulation of the TRP ion channels causes a systemic effect that calms the motor neuron overstimulation and stops the cramp. Pretty crazy stuff really.

    http://www.gustrength.com/physiology...-cramps-part-i
    I don't think exercised induced depletion causes the cramping, I think that a general lack of essential electrolytes in our diet does. I read that about the TRP channels, but that doesn't treat the cause but the symptoms to my understanding. Like I said I'm no pro at physiology. From what I gather, I would think that overall nutrition plays a role, that and conditioning. Of course some people may be more prone to cramping.

  14. #14
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    I haven't been riding that much lately but when I did cramps were rarely a problem except for one particular ride, the Bear Creek Dam Road SW of Denver. I'd climb the dam road from the south, then double back down the path through the park to the west. Every time on the way down, just before I'd get to the creek I'd cramp up. If I went down the other side of the dam, to the north, I'd be fine. It got to the point I wondered if it was a mental thing, I expected to cramp up there so I would...weird.
    The Sheriff is near!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronWright View Post
    I don't think exercised induced depletion causes the cramping, I think that a general lack of essential electrolytes in our diet does. I read that about the TRP channels, but that doesn't treat the cause but the symptoms to my understanding. Like I said I'm no pro at physiology. From what I gather, I would think that overall nutrition plays a role, that and conditioning. Of course some people may be more prone to cramping.
    I don't think anyone truly knows what causes cramping, but the TRP channels are of interest.

    For me personally, I don't cramp during exercise, but I do not participate in any ultra stuff. Although, I experience muscle cramping randomly which may be a form of spasticity caused by my MS. Spasticity and cramping are a close cousin, whereas generally spasticity is over a larger section of your body and cramping is isolated. All my cramping has been isolated...typically calf muscles. It is also interesting how there is TRP connections with many other MS issues...heat/cold, pressure, vision, and other neurological issues common with MS.
    Many of these channels mediate a variety of sensations like the sensations of pain, hotness, warmth or coldness, different kinds of tastes, pressure, and vision. In the body, some TRP channels are thought to behave like microscopic thermometers and used in animals to sense hot or cold.[2] Some TRP channels are activated by molecules found in spices like garlic (allicin), chilli pepper (capsaicin), wasabi (allyl isothiocyanate); others are activated by menthol, camphor, peppermint, and cooling agents; yet others are activated by molecules found in cannabis (i.e., THC, CBD and CBN). Some act as sensors of osmotic pressure, volume, stretch, and vibration.
    So, I do smoke a lot of cannabis and do not cramp while exercising. Therefore, in conclusion, smoke weed and your cramp issues will be cured.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Steve View Post
    The study most often cited to debunk the electrolyte depletion theory of cramping involved only 13 subjects and concluded that electrolyte ingestion did indeed delay the onset of cramping in most of the subjects. Some people see in that study what they want to see. I don't know if any of those 13 participants have blood chemistry anything close to mine. (Cf., My wife, who has run 100 mile ultras, ridden 1200km rando events, ironman tris, etc., etc., never takes electrolytes and never cramps, but also doesn't sweat much.)
    Read that GUS article series I linked to. They cite several other studies and other evidence that pretty thoroughly debunks the dehydration and electrolyte depletion hypotheses. Granted, the other studies also have small sample sizes and the topic in general has not been as rigorously studied as one would expect, but they all have similar results. There is definitely a complete dearth of scientific evidence supporting the dehydration and electrolyte depletion hypotheses.

    Quote Originally Posted by AaronWright View Post
    I don't think exercised induced depletion causes the cramping, I think that a general lack of essential electrolytes in our diet does...From what I gather, I would think that overall nutrition plays a role
    You'd be hard pressed to find someone with a healthier diet than I, and I cramp. As that GUS series points out, generalized electrolyte depletion should cause systemic rather than localized cramping, which incidentally is exactly what happens to people suffering from hyponatremia.

    Quote Originally Posted by AaronWright View Post
    I read that about the TRP channels, but that doesn't treat the cause but the symptoms to my understanding.
    The TRP channels calm the motor neuron hyperactivity, so it does appear to be treating the cause and not the symptom.

    Quote Originally Posted by AaronWright View Post
    that and conditioning.
    Conditioning definitely plays a role, but cramping occurs in highly trained elite athletes too. Like you said, some people are physiologically predisposed.

  17. #17
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    Garth may be on to something. Expectation, it's a garden path among the weeds. My one time result with the Hot Shot could be placebo effectivity...that is, I expected that it would work, so it did.

    All of which brings me to jasckstraw's headset adjustment theory...maybe I should go back to catch a fire. I am prepared to expect that would work..but Hot Shot is legal and potentially far cheaper for that reason.
    The sad truth is that whine does not age well

  18. #18
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    I experimented with something this weekend with good results. Went out on a 5-hour ride in warm weather in the desert (it was only high 70's, but that feels pretty warm coming straight out of winter) and not in great shape. Pretty much a sure-fire recipe for cramps. I wouldn't have felt comfortable even attempting it at my current fitness level, but on this route I could have called altachic for a rescue at multiple points if things went south.

    I didn't have time to try making my DIY HotShots beforehand, so I did two things:

    -Rather than swallowing my salt caplets, I dumped the contents into my mouth and swished it around with a little water for a few seconds before swallowing.

    -I brought along a hand of ginger and just ate fingertip-sized pieces whenever I stopped for food, which was about every hour.

    Zero cramps, not even a hint of one. Still only n=1 and further research is needed, but very encouraging results.
    Last edited by Dantheman; 03-14-2017 at 01:00 PM.

  19. #19
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    Interesting. I've been working on ways to carry pickle juice. Ginger would be a bit easier. Does it tickle the TRP channels better?

    Edited to add: I've cramped for as long as I can remember. I've tried a lot of remedies, and have had some success with a few like salt pills and pickle juice. I've never been able to completely eliminate cramping on long efforts, though. The best strategy has been management and acceptance. Cramping sucks, but it's not nearly as debilitating as I once thought. It's never constant, and the first wave is usually the worst. I've found that I can keep going indefinitely once cramping starts, I'm just going to be more sore the next day. I've also discovered that overall performance doesn't seem to suffer that much. It's also fun to show people and gross/freak them out.
    Last edited by bagtagley; 03-15-2017 at 07:55 AM.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagtagley View Post
    Does it tickle the TRP channels better?
    No idea. I just know it's one of the main ingredients in HotShot, it's cheap, and I was at the grocery store the night before and thought I'd give it a whirl. Carrying significant quantities of pickle juice is definitely a non-starter, too much bulk and water weight. It's the vinegar, and maybe the salt, that's activating the TRP channels, so maybe vinegar powder+salt+gulp of water?

    Quote Originally Posted by bagtagley View Post
    Cramping sucks, but it's not nearly as debilitating as I once thought. It's never constant, and the first wave is usually the worst. I've found that I can keep going indefinitely once cramping starts, I'm just going to be more sore the next day. I've also discovered that overall performance doesn't seem to suffer that much. It's also fun to show people and gross/freak them out.
    Interesting, that hasn't been my experience. When I've tried to push through them it has ended badly, barely able to walk badly.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    No idea. I just know it's one of the main ingredients in HotShot, it's cheap, and I was at the grocery store the night before and thought I'd give it a whirl. Carrying significant quantities of pickle juice is definitely a non-starter, too much bulk and water weight. It's the vinegar, and maybe the salt, that's activating the TRP channels, so maybe vinegar powder+salt+gulp of water?
    My "pickle juice" is actually just apple cider vinegar, salt and garlic somewhat concentrated. My thought was to gelatinize it somehow like Clif Bloks, but that was before I read your post and realized that vinegar powder is a thing. I like your homemade Hot Shots better, though, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    Interesting, that hasn't been my experience. When I've tried to push through them it has ended badly, barely able to walk badly.
    Heh. Barely able to walk during, or after?
    Remind me. We'll send him a red cap and a Speedo.

  22. #22
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    During. My quads locked up so hard the pain was insane. 20+ minutes in a toe squat just trying to get the muscle to relax enough that I could just stand up, with occasional hammie cramps thrown in since that muscle was shorted so much in the squat. Then anything more than creeping walk could lock them back up and send me back into the squat. It took a long time to get back to the car.

  23. #23
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    This may not apply, but if you have recently been getting nighttime leg cramps, it can be a sign that you are not taking in enough water and electrolytes EVEN if you get no cramping during or after a big race. I work pretty hard fairly often do whatever projects or training...and for some months have been getting absolutely AGONIZING leg cramps. I've chocked it up to not drinking enough water during a regular day...and not taking in enough salts during light to moderate workouts. I sweat like a nut (my Canadian heritage), and that does affect things.

    Don't skimp on the the water simply because you think you're only doing a light or moderate workout. That was my mistake.

  24. #24
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    You can try pickle power juice. Sounds disgusting, but worked for me cycling. Also V-8 helps with all the sodium.

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    Chewed a decent sized ginger down to nothing on a ride this past weekend. It seemed to help a little, but the twitching never really stopped. It's hard to say if salt pills help during activity, but I'm certain they help with post-ride cramping. Particularly, cramping during sleep.

    I'm hesitant to spend a bunch of money on stuff I can make myself, particularly stuff like Pickle Power Juice. Tough part is figuring out how to carry homemade stuff. Little plastic bottles seem like a pain, but that's probably the way to go.

    WTF, HotShots is $35 for a six pack? Heard it was expensive, but that's absurd.
    Last edited by bagtagley; 07-03-2017 at 10:47 AM.
    Remind me. We'll send him a red cap and a Speedo.

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