Tyrolia Attack 13 Demo paper template

[waxoff]

Dude, it's kind of like I posted a "how-to" to change the head-gasket on a Subaru.
Then you post; "Ya know, this how-to doesn't work for my Buick. People should be warned!"
And you attach a picture of the "how-to" and it's not even the "how-to" this thread is about.

I'm not frustrated that you're trying to help people with Buicks - but that you flag this template that I created, and say it doesn't work. But the template you're talking about is NOT the template this thread is about.
And you're installing a "Buick" [non-demo] when the template here is for a Subaru. [Demo]

Please tell me you get why that seems slightly frustrating, for pretty obvious reasons!?

Point taken, posts deleted.

For the record, I never flagged your template, nor did I state it doesn't work, I presented the one I referenced with a picture. Nevermind.

[jhyatt]

I have attack 13 demo bindings on some skis. Buying some new(er) skis that are drilled for attack 16 on the line at a BSL 295, smaller than I want (315). If I understand correctly... the hole pattern is the same.
So can I just mount my demos using existing holes and move the toe and heel to get the right mount point? It will not match up to the numbers on the demo plates, I know.
It's already 2nd mount.
Thanks.

[doebedoe]

I'm 95% sure the Attack demo and Attack non-demo are not the same hole pattern. i.e. you will need to re-drill.

[MRR11]

I have attack 13 demo bindings on some skis. Buying some new(er) skis that are drilled for attack 16 on the line at a BSL 295, smaller than I want (315). If I understand correctly... the hole pattern is the same.
So can I just mount my demos using existing holes and move the toe and heel to get the right mount point? It will not match up to the numbers on the demo plates, I know.
It's already 2nd mount.
Thanks.

Heel holes are the same, but toe pattern is completely different. I have basically the same BSL that your new skis are drilled for (293), and have run into hole conflicts when mounting on the line between the demo toe holes and regular Attacks, so you'll just need to move the demo toe plate forward or back to make it fit, but it should be doable.

Also, IIRC the Attack heel holes for a 295 bsl happen to correspond almost exactly with where the demo heel plate should be, so you should be fine in that regard.

[jhyatt]

cool thanks. sounds like hopefully just new holes for just the toe, and fore or aft depending on where the rest of the holes are. I might pick them up this weekend and will let you all know how it works out. But sounds like something should work.

Heel holes are the same, but toe pattern is completely different. I have basically the same BSL that your new skis are drilled for (293), and have run into hole conflicts when mounting on the line between the demo toe holes and regular Attacks, so you'll just need to move the demo toe plate forward or back to make it fit, but it should be doable.

Also, IIRC the Attack heel holes for a 295 bsl happen to correspond almost exactly with where the demo heel plate should be, so you should be fine in that regard.

[jhyatt]

Heels line up perfectly. Toes do not. I want to make a known offset so I can still use the bsl guides in the demo plates.
Soooo... Where is the paper template for the attack 13 demo binders?
Also is white Elmer's glue fine? This will be 2.5 mounts, and a demo track so maybe just epoxy them in?
These are attack 13, right? Wtf is attack2?
Mine have adjustable afd so attack2?



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[S.B.]

Heels line up perfectly. Toes do not. I want to make a known offset so I can still use the bsl guides in the demo plates.
Soooo... Where is the paper template for the attack 13 demo binders?
Also is white Elmer's glue fine? This will be 2.5 mounts, and a demo track so maybe just epoxy them in?
These are attack 13, right? Wtf is attack2?
Mine have adjustable afd so attack2?



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Those are regular attack, the attack2s are the newer (uglier imo) iteration that can take gripwalk soles. I found the paper template a while ago on Google and it worked perfectly. I recall having to translate German so maybe alpine zone?

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[gregorys]

^^ That's an Attack demo, it looks like. The Attack2 is AT/MNC.
The two demo bindings have the same mount pattern. [the toe rail is exactly the same for both - you can slide on an Attack2 toe on an Attack 1 rail.]

The Attack2 at has a floating AFD and the AFD adjusts vertically to fit any boot, from Alpine/GW/WTR/ISO9523 (tech boots) [Yes, the Attack1 also adjusts vertically, but not enough for 9523 - I've never tried/tinkered with GW/WTR boots.]

So, lets make sure I know what you're doing.
You've got skis which had non demo attacks, and you're putting Attack demo bindings on them.
Right?
And you have mounted the heels where the old non-demos went. Right?

You can mount the toe pretty much where-ever you'd like. But if you want to maximize fore-aft shift, you have some calculating to do. You'd essentially want to mount the toe so it would be all the way back, when the heel was also all the way back. (Obviously with *your* boot in there, with the right back-pressure.) If you do that though, you have to be OK, with not being able to use a smaller boot - because it won't fit any more. You can, however use larger boots. Giving up a bit of maximum fore/aft adjust will let you also use smaller boots.

The template lists the distances from the holes in the toe/heel to the boot-center. I think you can work out the measurements you'd want.
I'd probably mount it in a board first, because it's pretty easy to screw it up though.

But that all assumes I understand what you're trying to accomplish, and the other details are correct, and I'm not at all sure they are.

[jhyatt]

^^ That's an Attack demo, it looks like. The Attack2 is AT/MNC.
The two demo bindings have the same mount pattern. [the toe rail is exactly the same for both - you can slide on an Attack2 toe on an Attack 1 rail.]

The Attack2 at has a floating AFD and the AFD adjusts vertically to fit any boot, from Alpine/GW/WTR/ISO9523 (tech boots) [Yes, the Attack1 also adjusts vertically, but not enough for 9523 - I've never tried/tinkered with GW/WTR boots.]

So, lets make sure I know what you're doing.
You've got skis which had non demo attacks, and you're putting Attack demo bindings on them.
Right?
And you have mounted the heels where the old non-demos went. Right?

You can mount the toe pretty much where-ever you'd like. But if you want to maximize fore-aft shift, you have some calculating to do. You'd essentially want to mount the toe so it would be all the way back, when the heel was also all the way back. (Obviously with *your* boot in there, with the right back-pressure.) If you do that though, you have to be OK, with not being able to use a smaller boot - because it won't fit any more. You can, however use larger boots. Giving up a bit of maximum fore/aft adjust will let you also use smaller boots.

The template lists the distances from the holes in the toe/heel to the boot-center. I think you can work out the measurements you'd want.
I'd probably mount it in a board first, because it's pretty easy to screw it up though.

But that all assumes I understand what you're trying to accomplish, and the other details are correct, and I'm not at all sure they are.

Yes. I am reusing the heel holes. I found the right paper template and I think the toe holes line up ok with the boot center at about the right spot, maybe like +0.5. This makes the bsl markings on the tracks still work. And I can then move back and forth a bit if I want.


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[MRR11]

Sounds like you're all set. Hopefully you didn't spend too much time looking for the correct template --- it's located in the first post of this thread

One more thing -- don't use white elmer's glue, it's not waterproof and will get all gummy when exposed to moisture and break down the seal. Use some wood glue like Titebond III, or Permatex Silicone RTV, if you don't want to go the epoxy route.

Do a test mount before you drill to make sure you end up where you want versus the line, and have a beer handy to steady the shakes before you begin

[gregorys]

Yes. I am reusing the heel holes. I found the right paper template and I think the toe holes line up ok with the boot center at about the right spot, maybe like +0.5. This makes the bsl markings on the tracks still work. And I can then move back and forth a bit if I want.

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I have not compared a regular Attack mount to a demo mount - but I think the heel would almost never go in the same place, in relation to boot center for a non-demo vs demo. [I suppose for the right BSL it would, but - but I think the heel and toe of most demo bindings have about ~6-7cm of travel. Most non-demo bindings have around 2, perhaps 2.5. So, as you can see, it would be pretty unusual for a non-demo mount to have the same mount point as the demo. [I can only see it, if the non-demo mount was for a very long boot. Like Mondo 30.]

Just for the sake of doing it - I pulled the regular Tyrolia template. [which people have complained about, so I'm not sure it's right - but lets just assume it is.] If I compare my 25.5 modo boot, that template [the non demo one] puts the front screws of the heel at ~11cm from boot center. The demo template puts the screws at 13cm from boot center. Given that - the boot that would have the same mount point for non-demo as demo would be about mondo 29.5. For a regular attack, with my boot, and swapping the heel for a demo heel and putting it in the same holes, I'd end up ~+2cm in front of the line.

That's all a bit of guesswork - but probably not too far off.

[east bear fr]

Your case is not convenient.
The heel pattern of attack demo is exactly the same as the non demo for 293 bsl. So re-use your 295 bsl existing holes would just mean 1mm back of centering, that's nothing.

But you will have a conflict with the toe. The front holes of the two patterns will be tangent. You could move backward the toe of the demo about few mm, but it could have an influence on the compression I guess.
The safest solution would be to move back the entire attack demo about 1cm or more. Or to move front about 2cm.

Hope you can understand what I mean with my poor english.

[jhyatt]

Your case is not convenient.
The heel pattern of attack demo is exactly the same as the non demo for 293 bsl. So re-use your 295 bsl existing holes would just mean 1mm back of centering, that's nothing.

But you will have a conflict with the toe. The front holes of the two patterns will be tangent. You could move backward the toe of the demo about few mm, but it could have an influence on the compression I guess.
The safest solution would be to move back the entire attack demo about 1cm or more. Or to move front about 2cm.

Hope you can understand what I mean with my poor english.

Yes thanks. I am going to reuse the back holes. The front holes might work, I need to check more carefully, but I think you are you right in that they are tangent. but if not I will move the front. You say move the front 2 cm back... Why?
I ask because I am trying to decide if I should move the toe fore or aft. Pros and cons of either direction. My boots are 315, longer if that matters.

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[east bear fr]

My english sucks. If you want to reuse the heel holes the easier is to move the toe part about 0,5 or 1cm back. This way there is no conflict and enough space between holes to be safe.
I would chose the exact distance between two positions of the toe part on the rail, I'd be more confident for setting up.

[MRR11]

You're overthinking this. Reuse the old heel holes, move the toe plate to where the new holes do not conflict with existing holes, and be done with it.

Don't worry about the demo BSL markings matching your boot's BSL or being off by some consistent offset, just make sure the forward pressure is correct when adjusting and move on.

If anything, tinker with the location of the toe plate fore or aft so that your boot center ends up exactly on the line. That's perhaps the biggest advantage to using a demo right there, you can move the toepiece fore or aft to get around hole conflicts and still be on the line or wherever you want otherwise.

Pros and cons of moving the toe fore or aft? It is generally better to have old holes behind the new ones, not in front due to the flexing of the ski in front of the toepiece. So use that as a guide, but I personally wouldn't worry about it and just drill it where it fits, closest to where it should be.

[gregorys]

Sorta a recommendation on MRR11's idea.
But I'd simply print the template up at the top there.

Cut it out and mark the centerline of the ski. Now just lay the template on the ski, where you'd put it [at boot center on the ski matching boot center on the template], without worrying about where the existing holes are.

See how close the existing holes are. If it's a ski with metal, IMO, it almost doesn't matter where the existing holes are. 3-4mm spacing is probably fine. [I always fill my old holes with epoxy+filler (not plugs) - so they're pretty strong already.] I think if you use epoxy and dowels/skewers to fill the holes on a non-metal ski, you'd still be fine at a few+ mm spacing. [There's a ton of threads on spacing - and personally I'm not sure what's right. I lean toward the thought that we're almost always way too conservative. There are quite a number of example of swiss-cheese skis where there's a ton of holes in the skis, and the mounts are just fine.]

Anyway, once you know the general spacing of the current and potential future holes, just move the template forward/back a bit and see if that resolves anything. My guess is, it may not conflict at all - or if it does, a little movement fore/aft will fix it.

Doing it this way means that the BSL markings are still accurate, you can fit any boot without having to screw around, and if you ever decide to loan or sell the skis, they'll be fine the way they are. [And you don't have to describe some odd, janky way to fit the boot, that only you understand.]

[jhyatt]

You're overthinking this. Reuse the old heel holes, move the toe plate to where the new holes do not conflict with existing holes, and be done with it.

Don't worry about the demo BSL markings matching your boot's BSL or being off by some consistent offset, just make sure the forward pressure is correct when adjusting and move on.

If anything, tinker with the location of the toe plate fore or aft so that your boot center ends up exactly on the line. That's perhaps the biggest advantage to using a demo right there, you can move the toepiece fore or aft to get around hole conflicts and still be on the line or wherever you want otherwise.

Pros and cons of moving the toe fore or aft? It is generally better to have old holes behind the new ones, not in front due to the flexing of the ski in front of the toepiece. So use that as a guide, but I personally wouldn't worry about it and just drill it where it fits, closest to where it should be.

Thanks that's my plan. Toe a bit forward. I just ordered the proper drill bits. Figured it's a good investment. They come with plugs.
I will epoxy the screws in since this is the last mount. I will also epoxy the open holes.
My first binding mount.
But I have another one to do...
I am going to make a jig out of wood that I can clamp to the ski.


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[Guymilton]

Could anyone please tell me why I can't see how to download this Attack 13 demo template?

[jhyatt]

Could anyone please tell me why I can't see how to download this Attack 13 demo template?

I went through this a while ago in this thread. It's a regular aaaaaattack pattern with a certain bsl to make the numbers on the track correct...

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[east bear fr]

I went through this a while ago in this thread. It's a regular aaaaaattack pattern with a certain bsl to make the numbers on the track correct...

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Only for the heel piece (293bsl). The front piece has its own specific pattern.

[gregorys]

Could anyone please tell me why I can't see how to download this Attack 13 demo template?

If you're using a phone or tablet, open the site in "desktop" mode - at least that's what Chrome/Brave calls it.

In mobile mode, you can't see the "attachments" that have the PDF template. The template should be listed at the bottom of the first post.

[Guymilton]

If you're using a phone or tablet, open the site in "desktop" mode - at least that's what Chrome/Brave calls it.

In mobile mode, you can't see the "attachments" that have the PDF template. The template should be listed at the bottom of the first post.

I'm using a desktop Mac with Safari. I cannot see an attachment anywhere.

[gregorys]

Shows up just fine for me on the Mac+Safari.

See this post:
https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...65#post4808065
Go to the BOTTOM of the post and you should see two PDF attachments.

[gregorys]

I just added screw measurements for the Attack1/2 Toe and the Attack2 heel.
I don't have an Attack1 heel here to measure.

If someone has the Attack1 demo heel floating around, could you measure the screws so I could add it to the first post in the thread? Please use calipers, if you have them, as it will make measurements way more accurate/precise.

[MRR11]

For Attack 1 Demo Heel Screws:

Front pair:
24.46mm total length
Head depth 3.33mm
Head diameter 9.855mm

Rear pair:
27.94mm total length
Head depth 3.33mm
Head diameter 9.855mm

Adjust for cheap HF calipers and a 6 pack of christmas ale, so YMMV