Contractor types: WWMD? Bid/Estimate etiquette?

[beaterdit]

So last Aug I tapped my neighbor, who has a lot of experience working on old homes (mine was built in 1897) for himself and his family. I'd seen some of his work at his own home, It's pretty cool stuff. Too 'creative'/artsy for my taste but showed he's obviously got skills. Also a lot of details kinda unfinished or roughly finished. That should have been a red flag but I figured whatever, I've been there myself with work on my own homes. He's not a professional contractor, kinda takes on smaller jobs for other people occasionally. There was a bid for the job but no ACTUAL contract signed. I hired him in an effort to save money. Another bid I got for the job was WAY over his, by more than half. Before you all pile on let me just state in no uncertain terms: I AM AN IDIOT. THIS WHOLE THING WAS A MISTAKE. I know that now.

The job was remodeling two bathrooms and the laundry room adjacent to one. This included redesigning and gutting one of the bathrooms to the studs, moving a wall, adding another wall and three doors, moving all the fixtures including washer and dryer, electrical, plumbing, and heating, building everything back up from scratch and tiling and drywalling the whole thing. The other bathroom was lighter, tearing out and rebuilding the shower, retiling that and the floor and adding a clawfoot tub that I already had, to existing plumbing. I told him I wanted everything to be NORMAL, not 'artsy', and professionally finished. He said no problem. The work looks good but when you look closely, it's somewhat less professional than I'd like. He missed multiple generous deadlines for finishing and ended up taking 10 fucking months of constant nagging on my part. There are still a couple details that need finishing but they're small and I'm fucking over it so I'll just do it myself.

TLDR: Bid was $5600. I'm now into the job for $7100 and change. Fine. Until he mentioned to me the other day that he wants to meet to discuss "settling up".

What's my play here? What is the common practice? Is it normal to just suck it up when a contractor goes way over budget?

My inclination is to point out the deficiencies in his work, how long it took, and how much I've already paid and tell him to get fucked on whatever he thinks he's still owed. Am I an asshole? The fact that he's my neighbor complicates the matter. Don't really want to make an enemy of a neighbor. Now he also operates a triplex he's not zoned for next door, as well as a duplex across the street that's probably not legit either. I don't want to resort to threats though.

Enlighten me oh wise ones.

[The Tortoise]

So last Aug I tapped my neighbor

Somehow I feel this would be an easier situation had you been tapping his wife instead.

Figure out what "settling up" means and go from there. But yeah, almost 50% over budget and months over time seems like he's received all the compensation he should get.

[fatnslow]

Pay up if he can justify the budget going over. Maybe you guys can come to a common ground on price ? You don't want to create an enemy of your neighbor over a few grand and chances are you'll need his help with something in the future. Chances are your "contractor" that you passed on would have gone budget over as well from the scope of work you described with an old house.

[beaterdit]

Somehow I feel this would be an easier situation had you been tapping his wife instead...........................................

Well his wife's another issue. She showed up at my door in tears at one point begging for narcotics for her "migraine". I'm in the medical field and also no stranger to orthopedic injury, I guess she assumed I keep a stash. Oh, we had never met at the time. She later went to rehab.

Fatnslow, sounds pretty reasonable. Note that I have already paid the $7100 in materials and labor, just to clarify. Was thinking MAYBE throw another $1K his way but I'd be pretty bitter with more than that.

[fatnslow]

Well his wife's another issue. She showed up at my door in tears at one point begging for narcotics for her migraine. I'm in the medical field and also no stranger to orthopedic injury, I guess she assumed I keep a stash. Oh, we had never met at the time. She later went to rehab.

maybe your neighbor thinks you tapped his wife after lubing her up with oxy ?

[2FUNKY]

Maybe just give him a bj this time and he'll call it even.

[RShea]

Was there any corners cut on the electrical or plumbing? Any inspections required as part of the work? Well isn't the norm 2 or more times longer than the quoted time to complete the job and budget 2 times or more higher than the original quote- a known for any remodeling right? ;-)

Find out what the settle up number is, and then decide if it is worth the cost or tell him that you figure the 2 of you are settled up. Of course he probably does not have any contractors license (if one is required in your state at all?) and there was no written contract, so it is his word against your word. in all this.

[beaterdit]

LOL, I know, I'm learning that.

No contractor's license. No permits obtained, not sure if required for what was done. Plumbing and electrical work seems legit but I'm no expert.

[::: :::]

in my locale, we tell people to expect $25k for a GC'ed gut-to-studs full bath, granted it will be shorter than 10mos

2 baths + laundry: assuming everything works, you're still getting it cheap

[beaterdit]

maybe your neighbor thinks you tapped his wife after lubing her up with oxy ?

Well than there's the question of her generally bitchy and unfriendly demeanor, and her appearance, which is not quite up to my standards, to put it delicately. Plus, with my neighbor's hygiene habits, let's just say... Ewwwwww.

Maybe just give him a bj this time and he'll call it even.

Can you help me out with that?

[DJSapp]

See what he can come up with and do something fair. If he actually bought $6000 of materials and can prove it, what was his time worth?

And never do business with your neighbors.

[beaterdit]

in my locale, we tell people to expect $25k for a GC'ed gut-to-studs full bath

2 baths + laundry: assuming everything works, you're still getting it cheap

Good to know. Everything's cheaper over here but yeah, what I've paid is still a few thousand less than the other bid.

[beaterdit]

See what he can come up with and do something fair. If he actually bought $6000 of materials and can prove it, what was his time worth?

And never do business with your neighbors.

Well I paid for much of the materials directly. Not all though, I'll have to see his receipts. And yeah, lesson learned. Shoulda known that in the first place.

[Skidog]

Wait so you paid $7100 already on a $5600 orig bid and he wants MORE? fuck that...sorry....

[BigDaddy]

More shades of gray here than that lame movie.

Still sounds like a deal, but you paid for it in other ways. Good luck

[iceman]

I'm sure when he says "settle up" he means he's going to give you some money back.

[Skidog]

I'm sure when he says "settle up" he means he's going to give you some money back.

very nice.....no really....still laughing

[Bunion 2020]

^^^ Ya never know, but that would probably a first.

[RShea]

As always the answer has been on TGR in other forum thread (Boat Titles):

[fatnslow]

Well his wife's another issue. She showed up at my door in tears at one point begging for narcotics for her "migraine". I'm in the medical field and also no stranger to orthopedic injury, I guess she assumed I keep a stash. Oh, we had never met at the time. She later went to rehab.

Fatnslow, sounds pretty reasonable. Note that I have already paid the $7100 in materials and labor, just to clarify. Was thinking MAYBE throw another $1K his way but I'd be pretty bitter with more than that.

Rough estimate of your locale wages for a hack carpenter and figure it out from there for time spent. $7100 total for labor and materials for what is described seems pretty low. NOBODY get's shit done in Portland for under $20k, if you want actual high quality bathrooms get freaking expensive.

[stfu&gbtw]

Can you help me out with that?

You looking for someone to practice on first?


All kidding aside... Having been down this road before, I'll never do it again.

1. Get a final number
2. Figure out how much of that is material cost
3. Figure if any material is to repair things he fucked up - subtract from material total
4. Subtract valid material costs from total cost
5. Divide remainder by number of hours worked
6. Decide if you think the $/hr number is reasonable, all things considered. Adjust accordingly.
7. Multiply your $/hr number by the number of hours
8. Add wages to valid material cost

You'll have your version of the total. Since there's no contract and no permit, I expect it will be very difficult for either of you to take the other to court without making this a lot harder than its worth.

On a separate note - you'll want to consider how to determine whether the electrical and plumbing are done correctly. Not because you'll recoup anything - just because.

Dude didn't move a wet wall, right?

[Lawless]

By bid, do you mean estimate? Around here nobody would bid a remodel, especially if the house was that old. It would be time and materials. In order to bid something, you would need full plans with finishes called out so everyone was putting a price together for the same thing. You would then add money to that when things aren't as expected when you get into them.

Few questions for him: what is his hourly rate, cost of any subs and his percentage on their bill, cost of materials and his percentage on top of them, how many hours he put into the project. That should add up to the final cost.

Was he working diligently when he was there? His cost so far seems cheap for the work you described.

[Bromontana]

Pay materials, acknowledge the complexity of the job means going over budget is realistic and you're happy to pay accordingly. Let him get that validation, but hold him accountable for delays with pressure to reduce labor by a % to compensate for hassle to your fam. 10%, 20%, whatever he acknowledges as a reasonable haircut on his work for treating it like a side job. It may not amount to much but you'll get some recourse & stay on the level with him without coming off as unappreciative or a prick. Nothing wrong with being firm & fair.

If you can get an inspection or an objective statement of deficiency in the quality of work or materials, add that as well. It may be harder to get agreement there vs. the time delay though.

[Zeedashbo]

in my locale, we tell people to expect $25k for a GC'ed gut-to-studs full bath, granted it will be shorter than 10mos

2 baths + laundry: assuming everything works, you're still getting it cheap

This.

Some dudes just don't know how to finish a job. All the piddly stuff adds up to a lot of time. Still 7k for 2 bathrooms is pretty cheap

[Zeedashbo]

By bid, do you mean estimate? Around here nobody would bid a remodel, especially if the house was that old. It would be time and materials. In order to bid something, you would need full plans with finishes called out so everyone was putting a price together for the same thing. You would then add money to that when things aren't as expected when you get into them.

Few questions for him: what is his hourly rate, cost of any subs and his percentage on their bill, cost of materials and his percentage on top of them, how many hours he put into the project. That should add up to the final cost.

Was he working diligently when he was there? His cost so far seems cheap for the work you described.

Also this.

I won't do bids for anything but cabinet shop work. Everything else is time and material. Unless they really want a hard bid for a remodel in which case I'm working $100/hr