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  1. #1926
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    You can hate on Tesla all you want, but it still proves to be an immensely popular make no matter the vehicle issues, insane CEO, or otherwise. After experiencing a handful of all three current models, I'm having a tough time wrapping my head around spending that much money on any OTHER type of car since once you sit in a Tesla, most other cars seem almost... antiquated. Blows my mind that the Model S is now over SEVEN years old, still looks great, and is STILL ahead of most of the competition when it comes to tech and electric range.

    Where's the proof of it's continued popularity? Just look up used ones on Autotrader. It's tough to find all but the earliest, high mileage examples for sale under 30 G's. Used Model 3's seem to go for more money than new. Plus they're EVERYWHERE. Been to CA a handful of times this year for work, where its overwhelming prevalence seems like it makes sense, but even in Texas they're becoming as common as cheap Chevy sedans. Every time I see a Model 3, I think, yeah, I want that to be my next new car. I think the Chevy Volt will be my stepping stone until I can afford a new 3 or a used S, but the lust factor is still high. That's saying something because so many people feel that way IN SPITE of all the known issues with the crazy company.

    And no matter your thoughts on TSLA corp, or even the product, we all have to admit that it's pretty rad that they did what they set out to do at the beginning; Musk's goal all along was to make EV's not just accepted in modern society, but something to be DESIRED. He proved that EV's don't have to be lamer, more boring, slower versions of their ICE counterparts like everything that came before them. No matter what, you have to respect that one thing if nothing else. EV's are COOL now. That was a tall order only a decade ago.

  2. #1927
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    that's exactly what's so fucking toxic about Musk's "vision". He's made people pretend buying a $130k disposable car is helping "save the planet" and, even worse, tied visions of the future to himself and his firms or what i'll call the bullshit factory keiretsu. Instead of investing in public transportation the conversation is distracted by hyperloop bullshitting. Instead of talking about the future of roads we get bullshit about "1 million robotaxis in 2020". People seriously talk about "colonizing mars".

  3. #1928
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    Quote Originally Posted by AustinFromSA View Post
    And no matter your thoughts on TSLA corp, or even the product, we all have to admit that it's pretty rad that they did what they set out to do at the beginning; Musk's goal all along was to make EV's not just accepted in modern society, but something to be DESIRED. He proved that EV's don't have to be lamer, more boring, slower versions of their ICE counterparts like everything that came before them. No matter what, you have to respect that one thing if nothing else. EV's are COOL now. That was a tall order only a decade ago.
    Creating a viable market for EVs is a remarkable accomplishment.

    The weird thing about the Tesla hate here on this forum is how some of Tesla's most vocal detractors also live in the U.S.'s most polluted cities. It would be one thing if their anger was primarily focused on Musk's poor execution but instead their anger comes across as hate for all EVs.

  4. #1929
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    that's exactly what's so fucking toxic about Musk's "vision". He's made people pretend buying a $130k disposable car is helping "save the planet" and, even worse, tied visions of the future to himself and his firms or what i'll call the bullshit factory keiretsu. Instead of investing in public transportation the conversation is distracted by hyperloop bullshitting. Instead of talking about the future of roads we get bullshit about "1 million robotaxis in 2020". People seriously talk about "colonizing mars".
    Well, I do agree with some of your thoughts, but they're not 130k cars today.

    Is battery the best option vs fuel right now? It appears so. Yeah, it's all carbon-producing, but just less. The batteries at end of life are still a big issue. Frankly, batteries in everything are an issue. We don't need batteries in so much shit that can be hard-wired. It's asinine.

    Public transportation. Absolutely. But to put that on Musk is reaching. Where is everybody else on that one? How 'bout the government? Green New Deal that is bastardized by every publican out there. We screwed the pooch on the rail system which is the 20/20 rule now.

    At least he's doing something. Again, he's whacked and bordering unethical in some instances, but he is moving the dial.

  5. #1930
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    narrative of environmental disruption by "startup" "genius" >> actual environmental disruption of transportation
    i think someone needs to take on a "ski mars" tee project a la 'ski iraq'...which i own but cannot presently find...
    www.freeridesystems.com
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  6. #1931
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    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    If you do believe, does that make you a Koch-knocker?
    it makes you a koch sucker

  7. #1932
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    that's exactly what's so fucking toxic about Musk's "vision". He's made people pretend buying a $130k disposable car is helping "save the planet" and, even worse, tied visions of the future to himself and his firms or what i'll call the bullshit factory keiretsu. Instead of investing in public transportation the conversation is distracted by hyperloop bullshitting. Instead of talking about the future of roads we get bullshit about "1 million robotaxis in 2020". People seriously talk about "colonizing mars".

    Yup. It really is all carny barking to the upper middle class. Meanwhile, our entire transportation infrastructure is crumbling, and, he's "inventing" something that needs it's own dedicated infrastructure, walled and fenced off, to work, because no way robo cars will ever function in a hybrid world. They have something better over in Europe, Japan, and China. High speed trains. Popular, cost effective with subsidies, and they work. Meanwhile, we expand out into exurbia with no end in sight with toy cars.

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  8. #1933
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    being a euro local it has come to your notice that the distances are greater here in the states and population density is lower and these facts contribute to the reason rail sucks here

  9. #1934
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    We can't even keep low speed trains on the tracks here in the US.
    "timberridge is terminally vapid" -- a fortune cookie in Yueyang

  10. #1935
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Yup. It really is all carny barking to the upper middle class. Meanwhile, our entire transportation infrastructure is crumbling, and, he's "inventing" something that needs it's own dedicated infrastructure, walled and fenced off, to work, because no way robo cars will ever function in a hybrid world. They have something better over in Europe, Japan, and China. High speed trains. Popular, cost effective with subsidies, and they work. Meanwhile, we expand out into exurbia with no end in sight with toy cars.
    Quote Originally Posted by DBdude View Post
    being a euro local it has come to your notice that the distances are greater here in the states and population density is lower and these facts contribute to the reason rail sucks here
    ^ ding ding ding

    Real big part of the issue here is the 'last mile' of transportation. Rail infrastructure requires a massive commitment of resources to make it work, and in most rural areas it simply won't work. We've spent the last 100 years prioritizing road infrastructure over rail for that reason.

    Our current rail system is most optimal for moving freight, and trying to shoehorn in high-speed development may not be the best idea.

    If we were to focus passenger rail transport on a more local/regional level, that would be a better investment. But across the massive landmass that is North America, the automobile still makes the most sense.

  11. #1936
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    Well, maybe that's the problem. Everyone living in places that are hard to get to, and require a ton of energy to get to.

    Then again, look at a map of China. They've figured out how to build high speed trains in the middle of no where. Big country.

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  12. #1937
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post

    Then again, look at a map of China. They've figured out how to build high speed trains in the middle of no where. Big country.
    Is it for sale?

    Anyone involved with ltl or ftl shipping knows how f'd up the whole situation is and knows that rail would be more efficient and lighten the load on traffic gridlock that is only getting worse. But we're pulling up tracks instead of putting them down and there's a CVS and a Home Depot in the way of where the tracks need to be.

  13. #1938
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackstraw View Post
    For double the cost.
    100K. Model S is 130k for like performance I believe. P100D.
    "I don't pretend to have all the answers, and I think there's something to be said for that" -One For The Road

    Brain dead and made of money.

  14. #1939
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bromontane View Post
    Enviro-unfriendly: high consumption relative to income, major new products vs more net-efficient used products. Long commutes, etc.

    Enviro-friendly: low consumption relative to income, carpooling, small-displacement used vehicles & products where possible. Renewable offsets for grid rather than buying new solar panels. Public transit and/or short commutes to reduce aggregate time in transit.

    Thse prone to signaling of course ignore these kinds of pragmatic solutions in favor of loud, unethical bullhorns like TSLA.
    Older vehicles typically have worse smog ratings than newer vehicles even in the case of an older vehicle achieving better fuel economy.

    The broad thrust of your post is essentially correct but asking people to do less-with-less is a harder sell than asking people to do more-with-less.

    EVs open the door to doing more-with-less when it comes to localized pollution. Transportation makes up more than half of the carbon monoxide and nitrogen oxides emitted into the air. You live in Salt Lake City, right? In the summer Salt Lake experiences high ozone levels along with high levels of PM2.5 from fossil fuels and in the winter horrendous weeks long pollution trapping inversions.

    Long term exposure to ground level ozone and particulate matter is akin to continuously smoking a pack of cigarettes a day over the course of a lifetime. The result is lung damage and increased risk of emphysema. Air pollution is also associated with, among other things, an increased risk of dementia, heart disease, and DNA damage.

  15. #1940
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bromontane View Post
    Enviro-unfriendly: high consumption relative to income, major new products vs more net-efficient used products. Long commutes, etc.

    Enviro-friendly: low consumption relative to income, carpooling, small-displacement used vehicles & products where possible. Renewable offsets for grid rather than buying new solar panels. Public transit and/or short commutes to reduce aggregate time in transit.

    Thse prone to signaling of course ignore these kinds of pragmatic solutions in favor of loud, unethical bullhorns like TSLA.
    Sounds good on paper. Too bad that's not the way most people tend to do things here in the U.S.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bobby Stainless View Post
    100K. Model S is 130k for like performance I believe. P100D.
    Model S Performance is $99,990.

    https://www.tesla.com/models/design#battery

  16. #1941
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    So, buying expensive cars as totemic consumer objects is good if they've a different profile for marginal pollution per mile driven?

    Not fucking the earth up quite as fast != saving the planet.

  17. #1942
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    Read an article in the magazine Wired, while at the doctor, about EM. Quite the d-bag, but zippy gets some shit done. I'd like to shake his hand, then kick him in the nuts.

  18. #1943
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    So much for Tesla's renewed solar power efforts getting off to a good start. Walmart has sued Tesla after rooftop solar panels on seven of the retailer's stores caught fire, allegedly due to poor safety practices. Tesla supposedly didn't ground its electrical and solar systems properly, according to Walmart, and regularly sent inspectors who "lacked basic solar training and knowledge." Walmart also asserted that Tesla's panels were rife with visible defects.
    ......

  19. #1944
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiballs View Post
    Read an article in the magazine Wired, while at the doctor, about EM. Quite the d-bag, but zippy gets some shit done. I'd like to shake his hand, then kick him in the nuts.
    Should probably try reading some books. You'd probably still want to kick him in the nuts along with Jobs if he was still alive.

    Quote Originally Posted by frorider View Post
    ......
    Where the hell was the Electrical Inspector? On-site installers in any trade can be questionable, hence outside inspections by localities.

  20. #1945
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    Why? Why do people defend this slip-shod environmental fraud? 7 fires, 200+ arrays depowered and in the process of removal/recycling is a huge environmental failure. But like with his tent built shitboxes Musk culturally DNGAF.

  21. #1946
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    So, buying expensive cars as totemic consumer objects is good if they've a different profile for marginal pollution per mile driven?

    Not fucking the earth up quite as fast != saving the planet.
    So you'd prefer rich people keep driving their gas guzzling behemoth SUVs? Sure, you can rip on the silliness of the status symbol of it all, but at the end of the day I'd rather see a bunch of rich douchebags driving EVs than Escalades, Range Rovers, Hummers, and Merc G classes.

    Are EV's environmentally consequence free? OF COURSE NOT, but over the lifetime of the vehicle, it's certainly a net win.

  22. #1947
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    Why what? Construction issues happen every day due to incompetent installers. If the shit isn't grounded properly there is going to be an issue. And proper grounding is relatively complex if you don't know what you're doing. You can blame Musk sure, he's the CEO or whatever the hell his title is, but he's so removed from actual installation that blaming him specifically for poor grounding?...sure if you want.

    You and Bro are so caught up in the hate that you cannot look at anything rationally when it comes to a Musk company. Which is fine, just sayin'.

  23. #1948
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    Quote Originally Posted by AustinFromSA View Post
    So you'd prefer rich people keep driving their gas guzzling behemoth SUVs? Sure, you can rip on the silliness of the status symbol of it all, but at the end of the day I'd rather see a bunch of rich douchebags driving EVs than Escalades, Range Rovers, Hummers, and Merc G classes.

    Are EV's environmentally consequence free? OF COURSE NOT, but over the lifetime of the vehicle, it's certainly a net win.
    No, what you do is very simple but politically impossible. Federal gas tax of two dollars, phased in over a period of time, that will pay for transportation infrastructure, and will also kill gas guzzlers with market forces.

    Works in Europe.

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  24. #1949
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamburello Rouge View Post
    Model S Performance is $99,990.

    https://www.tesla.com/models/design#battery
    So they cost the same. Id rather have the Taycan.

    Every Tesla Ive had, has always had build quality issues.
    "I don't pretend to have all the answers, and I think there's something to be said for that" -One For The Road

    Brain dead and made of money.

  25. #1950
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    No, what you do is very simple but politically impossible. Federal gas tax of two dollars, phased in over a period of time, that will pay for transportation infrastructure, and will also kill gas guzzlers with market forces.

    Works in Europe.
    So you screw over the lower and middle classes who can't afford new cars but also don't have a good mass transportation infrastructure to rely on? Or the worker bees who depend on their trusty old, gas guzzling pickup trucks to mow your lawns and trim your trees. Nice. Talk about unintended consequences!

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