Get Excited - Home Boiler Talk

[AdironRider]

So I have a radiant heat system running off a 13 year old HTP Voyager combo boiler (propane) that is dying a slow death. Needs to be replaced sometime this summer. 90k btu unit. My system is a hybrid hot water/radiant heat deal.

Local guy quoted my 10-15k for an equivalent replacement, which seems ridiculous, and he never followed up. Thinking about buying a Rinnai E110C (which specs out with a better flow rate by 1/2 gallon or so per minute, but not a hybrid system so no tank). Is this a realistic replacement option.

Any HVAC mags willing to help me along with this process? I want to buy the unit for 3-4k delivered then pay a guy 1-2 grand to install. Is this a scenario a contractor will play ball with, or will they blow me off to get the markup on the unit itself?

I am actually finding the internet somewhat lacking in answering these questions. Perhaps I'll have better luck here.

[AdironRider]

PS if any local mags to Victor ID want the job shoot me a pm.

[stfu&gbtw]

10-15k?

I'm available. I'll even cut you a break... Let's say $8K - I'll go 50/50 with the guy I hire to do it for you.

[AdironRider]

Yeah, I laughed at the guy so maybe I hurt his feelings when he quoted the number.

A replacement equivalent model from Phoenix is 6.5k online, which seems to be what Rinnai wants for the boiler/hybrid tank systems themselves. I'm hoping to get by with just the instant on combo boiler.

[irul&ublo]

waiting for thread to devolve into mtngrl/stfu&gbtw bickering....

So I have a radiant heat system running off a 13 year old HTP Voyager combo boiler (propane)....

You would make Hank Hill proud!

[stfu&gbtw]

^ you know who likes hot water?


Chainsaw Willie.

[digitaldeath]

what is the floor like in the boiler room? is it linoleum?

[balefulstare]

That price sounds a little offside (mind you I haven't seen your situation) my boiler changeouts typically run between 7-9K, where are you located? I would recommend looking at a Viessman Vitodens boiler, The Vitodens 100 is a pretty inexpensive option but really reliable. I've installed dozens over the years and never had any major problems with any of them. I have an older Vitodens 200 myself for about 9 years and even had my house fall on it (long story) and it never skipped a beat. They don't make a true all in one combi per se but they do have an add-on combi kit (basically a pump & heat exchanger in a box)

[balefulstare]

I didn't realize the Voyager was a tank style unit. Viessmann makes those too, the Vitodens 222-F. I haven't installed one yet but a friend of mine has one in his place and loves it, everything is built in: heat & domestic water pumps, all controls & piping, totally plug n' play. A little pricey though, my cost on it is $5500. But not much to installing it, so there would be a bit of savings there compared to a wall hung unit.

[riser4]

So. Tradeoffs. I have a Rinnai tankless and waste a bunch of water waiting for it to heat up. Versus wasting fuel keeping it warm. My water bill has gone up noticeably.

[::: :::]

replaced an ancient boiler (orig oil fired, but converted to gas-fired) w/ gas fired combo heating & domestic hot water unit
it was $12k installed in pdx, controlling 4 heating zones in the house
price did not include any radiator equip

this is the unit
http://us.navien.com/Product/Page1/D...y=NCB%20series

[balefulstare]

I have a Rinnai tankless and waste a bunch of water waiting for it to heat up. Versus wasting fuel keeping it warm. My water bill has gone up noticeably.

I hear this quite a bit from tankless owners, it's a bit of a misconception with storage systems that you waste fuel keeping it warm, with todays well insulated indirect tanks (separate tank heated by boiler) there is very little standby losses and you have hot water right now with really fast recovery.

[riser4]

I hear this quite a bit from tankless owners, it's a bit of a misconception with storage systems that you waste fuel keeping it warm, with todays well insulated indirect tanks (separate tank heated by boiler) there is very little standby losses and you have hot water right now with really fast recovery.

I'd probably be ahead if I had gone that route. Live and learn. All of the plumbers we considered talked us out of an indirect system and into wasting water. But they also keep jacking our water rates and lowering our natural gas rates. So there's that.

[AdironRider]

So I'm on a well and have cheap electric. Not to worried about my water bill or the pump running.

I do want reliability as the voyager apparently has had a service call a year or so during its lifetime. Mixing valve for DHW already went on me and I've only been in the place six months. (That Honeywell guy is basically minting cash with what I had to pay for that piece of plastic).

I thought those instant wall mount heaters weren't supposed to take a while to warm up? If that's the case I'd rather get the tank hybrid system I'm thinking.

Does the tank system have benefits for radiant? I'm reading a bit on temperature rises and the lower rise from the radiant system can pose problems. That seems to be related to guys trying to get a 1k instant water heater running radiant heat, but it's not clear.

I also have space issues. I have basically a 3' x3' x4' area for this to go.

[::: :::]

So I'm on a well and have cheap electric. Not to worried about my water bill or the pump running.

I do want reliability as the voyager apparently has had a service call a year or so during its lifetime. Mixing valve for DHW already went on me and I've only been in the place six months. (That Honeywell guy is basically minting cash with what I had to pay for that piece of plastic).

I thought those instant wall mount heaters weren't supposed to take a while to warm up? If that's the case I'd rather get the tank hybrid system I'm thinking.

Does the tank system have benefits for radiant? I'm reading a bit on temperature rises and the lower rise from the radiant system can pose problems. That seems to be related to guys trying to get a 1k instant water heater running radiant heat, but it's not clear.

I also have space issues. I have basically a 3' x3' x4' area for this to go.

Tankless systems do produce heated water pretty quickly. On demand is not an issue & you also don't run out, but, when you call for it the first time, you have to wait for unheated water in the line to clear before receiving it at a tap. A closed loop radiant heat system is a little different, but the heat time swing still applies for new heated water.

I can't comment with any authority on the tank vs tankless. My info thus far is it's a bit of a toss-up for efficiency; there are very good insulated tanks nowadays. Maybe others can provide some reliable info. I've heard arguments for having a tank in case of emergency (stored water) & quicker energy payback; or for having tankless (small size & dont' run out). [these are based on nat gas systems tho; we've avoided spec'ing elec unless it has a specific benefit]

Space issues for tankless: you need space for the unit plus an expansion tank and the loop/pump for each zone. The box itself is very small compared to a tank, but the piping takes up some wall space. This photo is for a system twice the size you are looking for and the HVAC guy really spread out as much as he could. (& this one's gas, not elec). You can see the expansion tank and the pumps for each loop. This runs in-floor radiant and domestic hot water for a 3000sf house w/ extra capacity



show the space to an installer for advice

[Mustonen]

Had our hot water heater die a few years ago during a brutal cold spell (2 weeks of subzero temps). Powered domestic hot water and radiant floor heat (open system) in a 3000 sq ft home in northern Michigan.

Bought a tankless rinnai for $900 on Amazon. Splurged $4 for next day shipping. Installed it myself. Do basic maintenance. Otherwise I mostly forget about it.

Takes a little longer for domestic hot water. Shower is a pretty short shot from the unit, so not too bad. Nothing "right" about it, but it works and I was able to invest the $14k I saved in a sick virtual reality midget porn setup.

[patxi]

Our boiler is nearing the end of it's life. Does anybody have a good recommendation for a heating contractor in the North Tahoe (Incline Village) area? I have a rough estimate from a guy in Truckee but it seems a bit excessive.

[Percy Rideout]

Lochinvar Knight's have done pretty well for me over the years.

[iceman]

Lochinvar Knight's have done pretty well for me over the years.

We just installed one, so that's good to hear!

[AdironRider]

Well the tank finally shit the bed after being in a state of slow death for three years.

This unit looks sweet and triples the GPM rating. And the price is right. Any reason to be scared?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Noritz-I...-300315642-_-N

[Svengali]

instalacion de caldera?

[AdironRider]

I actually got a couple hombres doing the install for me, similar but I just happen to know them.

Now follow up question, worth it to buy a water softener? I don't mind hard water but wouldn't mind extending the life of the unit. Worth the extra grand or so it is going to cost?

[Svengali]

soft water will kill your pot plants, fish, and take longer/more water to rinse the lemon grass tea shampoo/bodywash off

[From_the_NEK]

soft water will kill your pot plants, fish, and take longer/more water to rinse the lemon grass tea shampoo/bodywash off

I have the cold water in both my kitchen and first floor bathroom set up to bypass the softener in my house.

[AdironRider]

Will it still kill plants if I get one of those Aquasense sodium free units?

Realistically I can't separate my cold water line, at least not in any cheap way. If it isn't really tried and true in the sense that it will extend the life of my appliances then I won't get one, it is really my only reason for one. .