Swim, Bike, Cheat? Interesting article about cheating in Whistler Iroman

[nwslider]

I think the big one is that the winner qualifies for kona. Correct me if I'm wrong but the way I understood it is you need to win a qualifier in order to race in kona. If that's the case she deprived another competitor from a spot in kona. In which case the sleuthing is totally understandable

[bean]

With this context she cheated herself, but it shouldn't shortchange the feat of the people who did it legit, again, based on the whole premise of the Ironman in the first place.

Except that she was attempting to deprive a legitimate competitor from going to Kona. Getting there is a big deal in the tri world, so yes, what she did short-changed the accomplishments of others.

[old goat]

Well I'd start with not going to the NYT times over this, you honestly think a Times reporter just stumbled upon this? But I guess I'm more-so riffing on my overall thoughts on today's current shaming culture, where one screwup means you are a horrible human being with no redemption allowed .

Look, I think the whole overcoming adversity and challenging ones self is a whole lot of nice sounding words in their mission statement, and that these are races and should be won fairly, but as I mention above I find it pretty vindictive to go out of your way to fuck this lady over, if you sign up for a race that is supposed to be about you challenging yourself in the first place.

Fuck man, we both swim masters. This problem would be solved if their were time cuts qualify you for nationals, not a podium finish. Someone cheats they get DQ'd and don't get the qualifying time. Easy peasy. I'm not bringing national news and broadcasting them across the internet as a horrible human.

First of all--re today's "shaming culture". The problem is not too much shaming but too little. Public shaming is the only way to punish cheaters and other bad actors when conduct doesn't rise to the level of illegal or tortious. A sense of shame when someone does something unethical is a good but increasingly rare thing

Second--as Aaron Wright said, no one ruined her life or "fucked her over". To whatever extent her life is ruined--and as best as I can tell her life is ruined only in that she can't race any more and people in her home town and the triathalon world have lost respect for her--she did that to herself.

Third, and most important, ethics is not something you turn off and on. It doesn't matter if you're competing for a million dollars, an Olympic gold medal, or for a T shirt in a local event. It becomes too easily to rationalize cheating if one can tell oneself it doesn't matter, that no one is getting hurt, that the event is unimportant. Because when one convinces oneself that cheating doesn't matter it becomes that much easier to convince oneself that it doesn't matter when it does. Pretty soon cheating becomes generally accepted and rampant in the culture and we have cheating in for example, medical research, where lives are at stake and where there are increasingly frequent episodes of faked research. I give you Andrew Wakefield, faked research about mmr vaccines and autism, and the first measles death in 12 years in the US in 2015.

You say you don't condone cheating, but nobody should waste their time talking about it unless the incident is important enough to meet your standard. So what is your standard? When does cheating matter?

('m reminded of an interview Terry Gross did with an ex contract CIA interrogator. She asked him if torture worked. He answered that the question was irrelevant, that torture is wrong whether it works or not. Asking whether an incident of cheating hurt anyone or was important enough to call to the world's attention is irrelevant. Cheating is wrong. Period. You either have a strong moral foundation or you don't. You don't.

[babybear]

done
the trash heap has spoken


edit: fwiw I do think adiron has ethics- you are just being too stubborn my friend!

[AdironRider]

First of all--re today's "shaming culture". The problem is not too much shaming but too little. Public shaming is the only way to punish cheaters and other bad actors when conduct doesn't rise to the level of illegal or tortious. A sense of shame when someone does something unethical is a good but increasingly rare thing

Second--as Aaron Wright said, no one ruined her life or "fucked her over". To whatever extent her life is ruined--and as best as I can tell her life is ruined only in that she can't race any more and people in her home town and the triathalon world have lost respect for her--she did that to herself.

Third, and most important, ethics is not something you turn off and on. It doesn't matter if you're competing for a million dollars, an Olympic gold medal, or for a T shirt in a local event. It becomes too easily to rationalize cheating if one can tell oneself it doesn't matter, that no one is getting hurt, that the event is unimportant. Because when one convinces oneself that cheating doesn't matter it becomes that much easier to convince oneself that it doesn't matter when it does. Pretty soon cheating becomes generally accepted and rampant in the culture and we have cheating in for example, medical research, where lives are at stake and where there are increasingly frequent episodes of faked research. I give you Andrew Wakefield, faked research about mmr vaccines and autism, and the first measles death in 12 years in the US in 2015.

You say you don't condone cheating, but nobody should waste their time talking about it unless the incident is important enough to meet your standard. So what is your standard? When does cheating matter?

('m reminded of an interview Terry Gross did with an ex contract CIA interrogator. She asked him if torture worked. He answered that the question was irrelevant, that torture is wrong whether it works or not. Asking whether an incident of cheating hurt anyone or was important enough to call to the world's attention is irrelevant. Cheating is wrong. Period. You either have a strong moral foundation or you don't. You don't.

Jesus Christ I already told you. I draw the line at making national news about a regional middle aged women's race. I don't condone cheating, I don't think cheaters should go un-punished. You can say my moral compass is off, but I don't think I'm making some horrible leap here. Or we can tar and feather every cheater in the fucking times.

[uglymoney]

Jesus Christ I already told you. I draw the line at making national news about a regional middle aged women's race. I don't condone cheating, I don't think cheaters should go un-punished. You can say my moral compass is off, but I don't think I'm making some horrible leap here. Or we can tar and feather every cheater in the fucking times.

The article illustrates what a lot of people experience at races throughout the country which is why it made national news. This woman got caught and was rightfully skewered in the Times and the article has been widely circulated and discussed in social media. She probably didn't count on this when she chose to cheat but sometimes karma works sweet wonders and for that we should celebrate.

I remember when a rich wart rigged a slalom course on his home lake so the buoys were closer together for his run. It hit a lot of big papers as well. That is how it goes. http://www.waterskimag.com/features/...ce-of-buoygate

[old goat]

The people who had nothing better to do than find forensic proof for the mid 40's women Ironman age group competition. Went out of their way to get it in the Times. Lets destroy a woman's entire life because she cheated in a regional race?

Jesus Christ I already told you. I draw the line at making national news about a regional middle aged women's race. I don't condone cheating, I don't think cheaters should go un-punished. You can say my moral compass is off, but I don't think I'm making some horrible leap here. Or we can tar and feather every cheater in the fucking times.

You say you don't condone cheating, but you criticize the other competitors for investigating and reporting the cheating. Knowing that someone has cheated and not doing something about it is the definition of condoning it. Props to the people who took the time to do the research to document the cheating, rather than making unsupportable accusations.

BTW this isn't the first time the NYT has done an article about a incident in a minor sport that a lot of people might find undeserving of the attention of a national mass circulation newspaper. http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2012...t=tunnel-creek

[highangle]

First of all--re today's "shaming culture". The problem is not too much shaming but too little. Public shaming is the only way to punish cheaters and other bad actors when conduct doesn't rise to the level of illegal or tortious. A sense of shame when someone does something unethical is a good but increasingly rare thing

Second--as Aaron Wright said, no one ruined her life or "fucked her over". To whatever extent her life is ruined--and as best as I can tell her life is ruined only in that she can't race any more and people in her home town and the triathalon world have lost respect for her--she did that to herself.

Third, and most important, ethics is not something you turn off and on. It doesn't matter if you're competing for a million dollars, an Olympic gold medal, or for a T shirt in a local event. It becomes too easily to rationalize cheating if one can tell oneself it doesn't matter, that no one is getting hurt, that the event is unimportant. Because when one convinces oneself that cheating doesn't matter it becomes that much easier to convince oneself that it doesn't matter when it does. Pretty soon cheating becomes generally accepted and rampant in the culture and we have cheating in for example, medical research, where lives are at stake and where there are increasingly frequent episodes of faked research. I give you Andrew Wakefield, faked research about mmr vaccines and autism, and the first measles death in 12 years in the US in 2015.

You say you don't condone cheating, but nobody should waste their time talking about it unless the incident is important enough to meet your standard. So what is your standard? When does cheating matter?

('m reminded of an interview Terry Gross did with an ex contract CIA interrogator. She asked him if torture worked. He answered that the question was irrelevant, that torture is wrong whether it works or not. Asking whether an incident of cheating hurt anyone or was important enough to call to the world's attention is irrelevant. Cheating is wrong. Period. You either have a strong moral foundation or you don't. You don't.

Lighten up, Noam. Good use of the Wakefield, but the blatant fallacy of composition whereby you get to infer another's "Moral foundation" based on his reaction to yet a third party's behavior is just overfucking compensating on the internet. There is no objective morality. From this it follows that you can't have a lock on it. So keep it in your pants in public, Pops.

That being said, cheating is immoral. The bitch needs a blanket party.

Did you know Bobby Jones was only 5' 8"?

[legallyillegal]

Entertaining story. Thanks for posting. What the hell motivates someone to do this? To win an age division? Weird.

pure narcissism

[Rideski]

.
My wife did a triathalon.
You'll never meet a bigger bunch of self absorbed assholes than you will at a triathalon.

.

[jono]

There is no objective morality....

That being said, cheating is immoral.

QFWTF

OG pretty much spelled it out. This is interesting because she presents a case of a weirdly competitive cheater. And in a cultural context because shaming for unethical behavior has been replaced by a combination of shaming for meaningless nonsense and shaming for shaming, which seems to be what AR is going for. Self-defeating: if this shaming isn't justifiable then what's the standard that says shaming these shamers is ok? Silliness.

[old goat]

Noam.

Huh?

QFWTF

Quoted for WTF?

I don't get how you young people talk.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Should the shamers be shamed for shaming the shamed and who shames the shamers for shaming?

[Dantheman]

The article illustrates what a lot of people experience at races throughout the country which is why it made national news.

Exactly. I bet this is shockingly common.

I remember when a rich wart rigged a slalom course on his home lake so the buoys were closer together for his run. It hit a lot of big papers as well. That is how it goes. http://www.waterskimag.com/features/...ce-of-buoygate

That's hilarious.

[Timberridge]

.

Ha. It was her last. But she can be a bit self absorbed.
Plus I wouldn't let her buy an aero helmet.

[jono]

Quoted for WTF?

I don't get how you young people talk.

That's not talk, it's internet.

Should the shamers be shamed for shaming the shamed and who shames the shamers for shaming?

Generic shame shamers are shamed by their own shamer shaming. Only shamers of specific shamers can escape this inevitable loop of self defeat.

[uglymoney]

Generic shame shamers are shamed by their own shamer shaming. Only shamers of specific shamers can escape this inevitable loop of self defeat.

I laughed.

How much shame could a shamer shame if a shamer could shame a shamer?

[old goat]

It has been my observation that when someone is called out for doing something dishonest or harmful to other people, the response of the perpetrator is often to ridicule the person doing the calling out--tell them to chill or something nastier. Like it's not cool to point out that someone is being an asshole. So now we have about 3 generations (starting with my boomer generation) with no sense of shame. The end result being this douchebag:


Edit--when I said the trend started with the boomers, I forgot about Richard Nixon. Sorry greatest generation.

[doebedoe]

Edit--when I said the trend started with the boomers, I forgot about Richard Nixon. Sorry greatest generation.

Plus the Greatest Generation was responsible for raising the Boomers.

[::: :::]

Plus the Greatest Generation was responsible for raising the Boomers.

and didn't they invent the ironman (first one in 1977)?

[mcski]

How can being in the Times ruin her life when nobody reads newspapers anymore?!

[My Pet Powder Goat]

Funny, but most of us didn't read it in a physical newspaper. i read a suggested link on facebook; Million of people have. if it was me I'd rather I was in "science Friday" section 1998

[Angle Parking]

All this has me wondering how many local hero types are in fact cheating. Maybe not to the sociopathic extent as the nutbars on this thread but....you know, a couple sudafed here and there.

[XXX-er]

yeah so we all heard about this story on FB or a link from somewhere and thats a sign of the modern times, she cheated and everybody finds out not just people who follow Triathlons the world has become a very small place

I would say that IMO a local Tri is small I don't think an Ironman qualifyer is small

[abraham]

Hah, I read it in paper when it was published. But maybe I'm anachronistic. Plus the ads are easier to ignore and far less obnoxious on paper