Killed while filming. How do we backtrack from where we are?

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

Haha I just deleted that so your quote busted me. I deleted cause Im not sure I actually support calling TGR out for marketing those falls, cause I totally understand in a biz sense it's smart on their part to do what they can to get interest in the film. And since neither of their skiers got hurt it seems like fair game to me.

That said the difference between Cody and those TGR vids is simple for me: MSP promoted the success of their athlete. TGR promoted the failures. One promotes the glory of risk, the other taps into people's desire to see blood/injury. Take that however you want, but I think that's a far more interesting conversation to have, and a far more realistic place to start trying to make a change than "oh my god we have to save athletes from predatory film companies and get them all insurance."

Foggy I can't really answer your questions about the employment side of things. I'd be surprised if any film companies are treating skiers like employees as usually it's their sponsors thatpay and employ them, but I'm not involved enough to really know that to be the case anymore.

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

What do you think about the ultimately responsibility lying with the athlete to ski/not ski?

That's a complicated question but to me it ultimately sides with the athlete.

[Foggy_Goggles]

It's pretty infrequently that an industry leading company fundamentally changes their product for the benefit of their "labor" when a relatively unlimited supply of labor is will to supply their skills at a relative bargain. It is usually about the profit motive.

For every Mike Douglas and Cody Townsend in the ski industry, there are probably 100 up an comers who can't properly analyse the risk/reward and are willing to "go" at almost any cost.

I brought up all the insurance, employment, contractor stuff to see where the conversation went. My honest opinion is that it doesn't matter. The reality is that a skier triggered avalanche is a result of either bad decision making or a tolerance for the inherent level of risk of avalanches. The world is full of people making bad decisions and/or having high tolerance of risk. "The camera made me do it" is weak sauce.

[jono]

I see Neckbeard's point as in-line with the discussion of making money off someone else's risk: it's not that insurance needs to be a major change agent so much as that insurance companies won't lose money, so if the "industry" is buying insurance then the "extra" profit they are making from the athlete's risk is at least addressed. It reduces the hand wringing over whether someone made them do it or applied undue influence to make a buck. Or it just moves it to the paying audience.

Trashing footie of slides that turn out ok is interesting, though; it adds a second risk that is more likely/lower consequence, and the cost of which falls on the producers. All those things seem likely to result in more careful investigation and better decision making. You want to start calling out every film that features too-heavy sluffs? Maybe form an athlete-protection group that certifies movies' filming safety like the animal rights folks? Nothing sounds attractive, really, but anything from the audience seems preferable to some regulation.

[Foggy_Goggles]

There is all kinds of regulation all ready in place. It is pretty straightforward and anyone that owns a business and either contracts out work or employees people will be familiar. I'm sure there is an extreme variation in compliance between Big Time Film Company and Up and Coming YouTube Edit Guy. None of that matters when there is an infinite supply of "Athletes" willing to put it all on the line for a cheeseburger, a pair of skis and 15 seconds of fame on the internet.

[jono]

I do lots of contract work and contract some work out; even for my line of work the contracts basically eliminate the type of liability for safety that is implicit in an employer/employee relationship, so I can't imagine OSHA and the lot really applies like normal. Think stuntmen and you'd be closer, but without a script the skier-as-artist model gives a producer or photographer plenty of seemingly-reasonable outs to put all legal responsibility on the athlete. Which is ultimately the only place it can go, but that doesn't mean the athlete is making risk assessments without considering money, reputation or production issues that shouldn't enter into it at all.

[Hicks]

Neckbeard nailed it with both those posts.

+1

Regarding Estelle Balet's accident a local newspaper mentioned Fasnacht (the other girl) and her went off the heli and dropped right in, no snowpack analysis o.e. since it was considered safe. The intended to board only the top sections and climb back up. However while Balet was going the sluff started accumulating to an extend which finally pushed her entirely into the ravine and all the way down, sending her over several cliffs along.

[powdork]

+1

Regarding Estelle Balet's accident a local newspaper mentioned Fasnacht (the other girl) and her went off the heli and dropped right in, no snowpack analysis o.e. since it was considered safe. The intended to board only the top sections and climb back up. However while Balet was going the sluff started accumulating to an extend which finally pushed her entirely into the ravine and all the way down, sending her over several cliffs along.

Are you talking sluff in the North American sense or the FWT announcer sense? To me, this looks like at least a small slab released.


But if it was just sluff it sounds like that was the case for both of the recent deaths. From the Max Arsenault thread in ski/snowboard

Maxim was my mentor and we became each others number 1 ski partner the last few seasons. It was weird to dig him up and even weirder that he died on something so small. Got off his line and aired 25 feet to a flat, bridged bergshrund and got buried by his sluff. We didn't get to him fast enough. Skiing will always feel different to me now but I feel like it was his fate to leave his body behind that day (4/20). Max inspired so many... take that energy he had for his true purpose (skiing) and apply it to whatever your true purpose is. Never be in a hurry in the mountains, never let your guard down no matter how mellow it looks. RIP Max

[Bunion 2020]

Smallish slab.



Terrible consequence

[neck beard]

I guess there is the possibility that risk-services are being provided by skiers for less than they are worth, and so both dvd consumers and producers are getting a good deal. No doubt some skiers and producers have their own deals that address the topic, to "do the right thing". The benefit of the doubt should be given. And as has been said over and over, most athletes want to be sitting in that heli. They want to be skiing that terrain. That is their expensive difficult access artform.

For a production company (and/or sponsor) to underwrite their own athlete insurance might be legally and financially difficult.

It would also be an odd situation: having an athlete sign a release of liability waiver, followed by an insurance contract. I am not sure how those two exist side-by-side.

I agree with a comment above: the average film viewer probably doesn't care if they are seeing the best skier in the world with comprehensive terms of compensation, or some charging up and comer who is happy to go without insurance. Good porn is good porn. This isn't a headline title fight.

The Hollywood stunt contractor analogy is thought provoking.

If POW (Protect Our Winters) is a thing in the SRM world, is there also logical room for POA? (Protect Our Athletes)? Or is this just a low incident rate storm in a tea cup?

[Foggy_Goggles]

And...
POR (protect our roofers)
POTC (protect our tower climbers)
POPA (protect our porn actresses)
POSPD (protect our snow plow drivers)

I'm not even convinced that "professional skiers" are getting killed or injured at a higher rate than the average joey. None the less, they are engaged in a risky profession. That is a choice they make. Whether any of us think they are getting fairly compensated not relevant.

I only bring up insurance and contracts and workmans comp liability waivers to demonstrate that systems and protocols are already in place for those in risky professions.

I have a job this summer where my subcontractors and me will have to go up on a machine 3 stories and tear off a deck where the structure may be suspect. We will attempt to follow OSHA guidelines but there are not many good places to tie off. Its a fixed price job. I'll be living my money vs. everyone's safety everyday.

It is all terribly sad, and I don't mean to be callous. I just simply feel that many of the thoughts expressed in this thread have nothing to do with it. But that's just like my opinion man.

[candice8899]

How much raw footage is needed to create one, single, 60 minute film? I imagine that 100's of hours of film don't make the final cut. Crews could go ahead and dig snow pits on all of these heli-lines you see in the film, but that would take a great amount of time, energy and money.

The sponsors want a finished product in the allotted time, so safety is probably not priority #1.

Agreed with this!!

[XXX-er]

I f we could just make extreme skiing safer maybe I could get a gig

OTOH

I suck

[skifishbum]

And...
POR (protect our roofers)
POTC (protect our tower climbers)
POPA (protect our porn actresses)
POSPD (protect our snow plow drivers)

I'm not even convinced that "professional skiers" are getting killed or injured at a higher rate than the average joey. None the less, they are engaged in a risky profession. That is a choice they make. Whether any of us think they are getting fairly compensated not relevant.

I only bring up insurance and contracts and workmans comp liability waivers to demonstrate that systems and protocols are already in place for those in risky professions.

I have a job this summer where my subcontractors and me will have to go up on a machine 3 stories and tear off a deck where the structure may be suspect. We will attempt to follow OSHA guidelines but there are not many good places to tie off. Its a fixed price job. I'll be living my money vs. everyone's safety everyday.

It is all terribly sad, and I don't mean to be callous. I just simply feel that many of the thoughts expressed in this thread have nothing to do with it. But that's just like my opinion man.

callously solid
we had 2 ut avvy deaths
twice that inbounds, but not avalaunches, trauma
think we are over 300 opiate overdoses fatalities
the avalanche deaths get hyped to the bejeeebus and mmacq by (cough) experts

[Hicks]

Are you talking sluff in the North American sense or the FWT announcer sense? To me, this looks like at least a small slab released.

Doesn't matter how you call it...the result stands for itself. It was said to have been really small but developed before it caught up with Estelle. Infos contradict on whether she triggered it herself or whether it came down on her from a neighbouring couloir above.

Not sure whether that could be a snowboard track in the slide path right to the small ridge ....




She was reported to have boarded the green line ok as initially planned before the momentum of the slab took her all the way down thru the ravine (red)




Subtle posted this pic of the Couloir Est over in the Snow For The euros thread, showing it less steep than the pic above but still no way to survive that ride if taken entirely down.



They spotted her right away at the bottom but were unable to resuscitate here, she was gone.

[muted]

Sounds like you dudes ^^^ are kinda on the inside so you probably know the answers to the questions I'm asking. Really, I'm wanting to know if the ski movie industry is an way legitimate in terms of existing employment, contracting and insurance regulation.

I'm sure [insert large diversified extreme sports video company] carries liability insurance. I'm sure given the nature of their business they have an annual insurance audit. If they are writing checks to "athletes" either as employees or contractors their liability and/or workmans comp insure will be kicking the tires to analyze risk.

What part of this do I have wrong?

Companies pay movie producers a ton of money to have their employees/contract workers in their movies. These skiers are getting paid by their sponsors, not the film companies. So the sponsors should give them insurance, if anyone should. But usually when they get hurt, the sponsors drop them, and the film company finds a replacement athlete.

I've heard Warren Miler pays though, but I have no idea if that's true. I'm guessing it is true.

The responsibility of skiing or backing off always, always lies on the skier. Some companies have started training their athletes though, like TGR, and hire top-notch guides which is awesome. Looks like the guide with Estelle simply made a bad call, and maybe the guide was top-notch anyways. But that runout was crazy long if anything went wrong, and it did.

Max just had a simple mental mistake while skiing. That's all it takes, a simple mistake, and everyone in the game knows it. Humans are not going to stop making small mistakes, but you can try to avoid ski terrain/conditions where a small mistake is death. Easier said than done when filming, but definitely possible.

And if there was no risk, what fun would it be to ski some crazy lines? The sense of surviving and feeling invincible is addictive.

[tone capone]

These accidents are heartbreaking and they have been on my mind every day, same as when this shit happens every year. I think a lot about the risk reward ratio, and how nature doesn't give a flying fuck about us. I think about the fact that we are all just a warm piece of meat in the mountains. I think about the grieving friends and families, and I think about how I have the ultimate responsibility not to put my own family in this position. But I honestly wouldn't even trade living and recreating in my little corner of windswept, continental slag piles of mountains for any degree of safety or security in some shit ass existance in any version of the modern rat race. Fuck the flatlands, fuck the beach, fuck the city, fuck the heat, fuck the gym, fuck tinder, fuck clubbing, fuck the big fat wedding, the white picket fence, and the 2.1 kids, fuck everything that "normal" people do, and fuck all to hell working 9 to 5 on weekdays. I am just an average poser, and I wouldn't give it up for love nor money.

I get sad when my heroes die. I get scared shitless at times doing things far more pedestrian than they do. But I fucking love skiing more every year. I love the rush of going fast and catching some air, as has been said by better wordsmiths that I, it's not fun it's life truly lived. No amount of positive or negative reinforcement short of serious breakage or death will ever stop me from wanting more.

So from that perspective, "In theory" if TGR or Matchstick were offering me a ride in the heli, even being older, somewhat wiser, definetly more broken than in my 20's, I would jump at the chance, fuck insurance, they wouldn't even have to pay me, they could throw the footage in the trash and call me a gaper. So I just don't understand the desire by the community to hold these athletes back. I just can't imagine that any of them would want to be held back by increased regulation and prohibitive production cost.

Let them live the dream, no one is holding a gun to their heads, it's a first world problem. Having so much fun you knowingly accept the risk of death. They are deciding the risk is worth it, because it's the best goddamn lifestyle on this godforsaken planet! Unfortunately there is not much more of a market for these types of movies than currently exists so yeah, funds are limited. That said, if the athletes decide the risk is not worth it, or if the market will not bear the cost of making the movies in the future then the problem will be solved that way. Fine, people will just ski purely for fun again, we can live without the ski media, and make our own movies.

Let people do what they want and follow their own dreams, maybe new film companies will be spawned which will in turn create a competitive environment to foster more lucrative contracts and better safety protocol. There is always a cost, in any high risk activity, of being a pioneer, of wanting to be the best. It takes a special kind of person. There are not many of that kind of people, appreciate them for what they have given us, the doors of opportunity they leave open in their wake. Just look what Shane gave us in the last 10 yrs alone, and he went on record: He wouldn't have traded it for anything.

As for me and countless others, I'll keep skiing and doing dumber shit than is in my best interest for free, so I don't think there will be any shortage of people who will do it for glory and the highest level of self actualization.

[powdork]

Companies pay movie producers a ton of money to have their employees/contract workers in their movies. These skiers are getting paid by their sponsors, not the film companies. So the sponsors should give them insurance, if anyone should. But usually when they get hurt, the sponsors drop them, and the film company finds a replacement athlete. ........

Max just had a simple mental mistake while skiing. That's all it takes, a simple mistake, and everyone in the game knows it. Humans are not going to stop making small mistakes, but you can try to avoid ski terrain/conditions where a small mistake is death. Easier said than done when filming, but definitely possible.

To your first point, that is what Salomon is doing so well. I'm into ski movies and contests way more than the average bear, but couldn't tell you what Ian Mac, Angel Collinson or a dozen other great riders ski on. But the Salomon episodes get me to know every one of their skiers.

And your second point is why i started this thread. It seems every year the mistake that needs to happen gets a little smaller. Technology is trying to keep up with body armor and airbags and such, but it is still lagging behind the curve. I don't think things will get dialed back nor do I want them to. I just want people to stop dying.

[TahoeJ]

but couldn't tell you what Ian Mac, Angel Collinson

Volkl for both. But yeah, Salomon does a great job with that. And based on that article with Cody in Powder a few months ago - http://www.powder.com/the-end-game/ - it sounds like they've taken serious steps to avoid putting too much pressure on their athletes to put themselves in harm's way. So they're kind of leading the charge in trying to change things, it seems.

[XXX-er]

I supose they can make small features look big or do something besides big AK lines?

I toured around with the Salomon guy as he was scoping a story on the Hankin BC area, because it doesnt seem exciting enough to shoot an action movie I had to ask "you can shoot a movie here" and Jeff said "Oh yeah no probelm!"

they came back with the crew but due to bad weather they got all the back ground but no action

[mufasa5446]

Neck Beard, you know what you're talking about

[Hicks]

Looks like the guide with Estelle simply made a bad call, and maybe the guide was top-notch anyways. But that runout was crazy long if anything went wrong, and it did.

Aside from the mere length there are cliffs in the runout to navigate around where she was likely swept over. Indeed a bad place to be as a passenger in a slide. Terrible consequence just for the want of film footage of the top 500 ft.

Young athletes like here are often accompanied by guides and rely on their judgement whether a line is safe or not. But also in general we see a rise in accidents where guides are involved in recent years just due to the mere expansion off-piste skiing has seen.

[nickwm21]

Came here to post that.

Better link https://www.instagram.com/p/BEq7BnTuGz7/?r=240396477

[TahoeJ]

Looked like a good line choice and slough management to me. I know that second clip was a "FWT slough" (i.e. small slab release) but Candide clearly knew he had the spine to escape to which was more or less an island of safety.

The real key here, of course, is that he's not doing this above several hundred feet of exposure.

The comment about someone skinning at the bottom of the slope... Really? Notice there's a camera crew filming this too. Do you really believe he's dropping in on someone?

Is the point that he shouldn't ski this because some joey might try to do the same? Well then, I guess no one should ever do anything then.

[simple]

Hello nanny state how are you? Keeping yourself busy? Good. The sheep need your protection.