At least one bike company hasn't completely lost it's mind.........

**Sirshredalot** · 04-15-2016, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA

that might be the only true statement Damian has said , we do ride a ton of technical up and down trails in Vermont, but running a below 13 inch BB does not matter as much as I thought.

Apparently he doesn't ride in Vermont: he rides in Lynn. Which is flat. And has a fire road as the backbone of the trail network.

Furthermore, at least one of the genius architects of the sick wheelie dorps in Lynn lives and rides in Utah now and thinks Damian Skioff is a buffoon. So he's got that going for him.

**jm2e** · 04-15-2016, 09:20 AM

Once I got out of my backyard, I realized that starting at the top of something and coming back down for more than just a couple of minutes is REALLY REALLY FUN.
So now, I'm surrounded locally by techy flat single track and I have to drive 3-4 hours on the weekends to get to the mountains. Sitting in the saddle and just spinning the low gears for an hour or so is an okay way to start the day. It's actually more fun that pedaling uphill on something that would be better as a downhill. I'll take the causal way around anyday now. Or, shuttle me.
When I get back home, the contrived up and down overlapping maze of a trail network just isn't as much fun anymore. Wow, that was a lot of work to not have very much fun going 30 feet! So I guess I can kind of see Damian's reluctance to get outside of what's working for him. God forbid you discover there's a bright horizon just beyond your little rabbit hole.
The arguments are so similar to the East Coast ice skiers bragging about how core they are compared to the soft western skiers with their fluffy powder and wide open bowls and gondolas.

**Damian Sanders** · 04-15-2016, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by jm2e

Once I got out of my backyard, I realized that starting at the top of something and coming back down for more than just a couple of minutes is REALLY REALLY FUN.
So now, I'm surrounded locally by techy flat single track and I have to drive 3-4 hours on the weekends to get to the mountains. Sitting in the saddle and just spinning the low gears for an hour or so is an okay way to start the day. It's actually more fun that pedaling uphill on something that would be better as a downhill. I'll take the causal way around anyday now. Or, shuttle me.
When I get back home, the contrived up and down overlapping maze of a trail network just isn't as much fun anymore. Wow, that was a lot of work to not have very much fun going 30 feet! So I guess I can kind of see Damian's reluctance to get outside of what's working for him. God forbid you discover there's a bright horizon just beyond your little rabbit hole.
The arguments are so similar to the East Coast ice skiers bragging about how core they are compared to the soft western skiers with their fluffy powder and wide open bowls and gondolas.

Good for you. I grew up in a great area where I could ride to the trails with a short road ride, same with where I when to college. I don't like to drive to go riding more than twice a month or so.

I can leave my house and be on dirt in 1/4 mile, then link different conservation areas for rides of around 2 hours, but have gone up to 4 hours. It's not an epic vast area, but its uncrowded, not blown out, tons of no natural rhythm technical sections, and a few flowing singletracks. It its rocky, choppy rocky, because they are hiking trails that have been burned in for decades. The area is even littered with hundreds of years old stone walls. I may ride a loop, or an out and back, with plenty of technical climbs and flats.

Point being, if I want to ride by my house, I need a bike where I don't have to avoid a pedal strike every 20 ft. Because that's just lame.

**Dantheman** · 04-15-2016, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Damian Sanders

I can leave my house and be on dirt in 1/4 mile, then link different conservation areas for rides of around 2 hours, but have gone up to 4 hours.

4 whole hours? Respect.

**kidwoo** · 04-15-2016, 10:07 AM

So all your bullshit about bike requirements that people are stupid or suck at riding if they don't duplicate really just boils down to "you don't set your bike up to easily ride the shitty flat trails by my house"

**Damian Sanders** · 04-15-2016, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA

that might be the only true statement Damian has said , we do ride a ton of technical up and down trails in Vermont, but running a below 13 inch BB does not matter as much as I thought.

I would like to see everyone here pontificating to actually accurately measure their bottom height, suspension sag, pedal thickness and crank arm length.

Yeti SB66 / 26" Pike 160mm / 2.3x26" Minion DHF 26/30psi - actual static BB = 13.75"
1.25" thick clipless pedals
25-30% sag f/r
Still get pedal strikes if I don't intentionally avoid them

Ran a different 7" travel bike for a while with a BB a bit over 13", would pedal strike constantly. When I first had the Yeti set up last year with a 150mm revelation and a bit too much sag, also had bad pedal strikes - going to about 20% sag F/R seemed to help. I'm considering some 165mm cranks and some offset bushings to drop the BB a 1/4" or so.....WOW.

Maybe if you only have 20% sag and ride 1/2" thick flat pedals, 170mm cranks and don't do much technical climbing, maybe a 12.75" works for you. But that's not normal.

**Damian Sanders** · 04-15-2016, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by kidwoo

So all your bullshit about bike requirements that people are stupid or suck at riding if they don't duplicate really just boils down to "you don't set your bike up to easily ride the shitty flat trails by my house"

Lol!!!

My setup works well at other bigger regional areas......that would be still considered TRAIL RIDING. If I was going to ride bike park or shuttle or enduro style (which only a small percentage of actual mountain bikers do regularly), of course I'd get a lower bike.....oh yeah, I already have one, just need to build it up. Not stupid low like yours, but a bit lower than my yeti.

**kidwoo** · 04-15-2016, 10:23 AM

Again with 'must be shuttling or riding up roads' nonsense.

Go back to mtbr you hack. You're not even invited to my montage any more.

**jm2e** · 04-15-2016, 10:25 AM

So all we're saying here is, sometimes it's hard to find just the right bike for the unique kind of riding we each do. Sounds like a familiar story. Try talking to a short girl shredder about standover heights.
Hang in there though. Despite it sometimes feeling like the whole world is conspiring against you, there is often a diamond in the rough just waiting to be found. And when you find it, you might find that it's not as rare as you originally feared.
For the foreseeable future though, until you can find that diamond, there are still tons and tons of used bikes available at fire sale prices that would appear to fit your needs. And even though it might feel like time to give up, there are still quite a few tire options out there. In fact, on average, this is still a wonderfully cheap time to be on a 26er, so why not just stock up on rims and tires and forks!

**::: :::** · 04-15-2016, 10:26 AM

is there that little to do in Vermont that this is what fires you up?

just go ride your bike forchrissakes

**TahoeJ** · 04-15-2016, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA

that might be the only true statement Damian has said , we do ride a ton of technical up and down trails in Vermont, but running a below 13 inch BB does not matter as much as I thought.

I know that's true. He also implied that no one else does this - as if there aren't plenty of up and down trails all over the country. Or rocks. Or roots.

**jono** · 04-15-2016, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Damian Sanders

I would like see everyone here pontificating to actually accurately measure their bottom height, suspension sag, pedal thickness and crank arm length.

No need because pretty much anyone riding anything remotely technical can say:

Originally Posted by Damian Sanders

Still get pedal strikes if I don't intentionally avoid them

You learn to intentionally avoid them. The term "ratcheting" seems popular. Some people like to ponder POE. Bottom line, if you pick a bike and a trail and get very used to that bike's pedal clearance on that trail, then change it by 5 mm you'll probably notice--until you get used to it and compensate more (or less) and gradually the unridable stupid bike starts to feel normal. Get over the fear of the ratchet. Learn to keep momentum despite moments of backpedaling and the world is your oyster. Make any one of the changes you mentioned for an extra 5 mm and you'll probably love it, at least for a while.

**Damian Sanders** · 04-15-2016, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by jono

No need because pretty much anyone riding anything remotely technical can say:

You learn to intentionally avoid them. The term "ratcheting" seems popular. Some people like to ponder POE. Bottom line, if you pick a bike and a trail and get very used to that bike's pedal clearance on that trail, then change it by 5 mm you'll probably notice--until you get used to it and compensate more (or less) and gradually the unridable stupid bike starts to feel normal. Get over the fear of the ratchet. Learn to keep momentum despite moments of backpedaling and the world is your oyster. Make any one of the changes you mentioned for an extra 5 mm and you'll probably love it, at least for a while.

Thanks for spelling all this out for everyone. I've been aware of it for over 20 years.

Actually back in the 90's, I ran tubular steel cranks on my bike, first Bullseye's, then Sweetwings. Still have them both sitting around. They have a very small amount of material at the pedal connection, which makes a noticeable difference in ground clearance. It was a surprise to go to normal cranks around '00, just one more thing to avoid ramming into the ground.

Anyway, in technical climbing there are limitations as to how much ratcheting you want to have to do during riding to climb up. Clearly there is a sweet spot vs. downhill performance. For the VAST majority of people, it's around a 13.25-13.5" BB on a 6" travel bike, because people would revolt if the average modern bike was much lower.

**My Pet Powder Goat** · 04-15-2016, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by acinpdx

is there that little to do in Vermont that this is what fires you up?

just go ride your bike forchrissakes

Basically. For the most part biking in rural VT is non-existent. Out the back door you have overly-steep fire roads or ATV trails covered in mud, wet rock and roots, with bugs eating you alive on the up climb. Nothing's made for a mtnbike
Sure I live 55mins from kingdom trails but who the fuck wants to travel everytime they want to pedal?

I got spoiled here in PC with trails out my back door and a free bus that takes you up 1500ft to mid-Mtn trail(fuck long up-climbs! Thats for my waif 150lbs friends). So when I go home I have a hell a time getting motivated for shit riding and only make a couple trips to "destination trails"

The only way to stay excited on a bike back east is with a engine mounted on it. Braaap-braaap!

**jono** · 04-15-2016, 11:38 AM

Seems like this whole thread is about spelling out the obvious. I'm still not convinced that Niner/Evil/Transition isn't paying you to act this obtuse--it's a good gig, I'm sure, but don't overplay your hand. Do keep telling the more-traveled folks what the vast majority needs, though, that'll keep your posts looking almost clueless enough to be believable.

**knumbskull** · 04-15-2016, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by El Chupacabra

I'm glad my wife and I could make a cameo in this great thread.

Damian, I ride a Banshee Rune with 26" wheels. You make me want to convert it to 27.5"

**milestogo** · 04-15-2016, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by My Pet Powder Goat

The only way to stay excited on a bike back east is with a engine mounted on it.

Hit me up when you come back. I can show you some fun trails you may not know about in Lamoille county.

**strawjack** · 04-15-2016, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by My Pet Powder Goat

The only way to stay excited on a bike back east is with a engine mounted on it. Braaap-braaap!

I'll agree and disagree with that one. The braap braaap is fun, but EC it sucks compared to West. Mtn biking is just totally different. I've ridden a lot in the western mtns and the east. It's just different and that's all there is to it. You can put a shit load of miles in out West compared to most places back here because it is more techy, tight, rocky vs what you can find inda West. Not that West doesn't have that terrain, they just have more variety. PC though is slog and a downhill. My bud comes back here every year from PC and gets his ass kicked on our trails.

Really, it just doesn't matter. Go ride a bike....or not.

**::: :::** · 04-15-2016, 01:49 PM

probably not a mag in this video
not skilled enough

**bsavery** · 04-15-2016, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by acinpdx

is there that little to do in Vermont that this is what fires you up?

just go ride your bike forchrissakes

Maybe Damian's high on maple syrup

**My Pet Powder Goat** · 04-15-2016, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by strawjack

I'll agree and disagree with that one. The braap braaap is fun, but EC it sucks compared to West. Mtn biking is just totally different. I've ridden a lot in the western mtns and the east. It's just different and that's all there is to it. You can put a shit load of miles in out West compared to most places back here because it is more techy, tight, rocky vs what you can find inda West. Not that West doesn't have that terrain, they just have more variety. PC though is slog and a downhill. My bud comes back here every year from PC and gets his ass kicked on our trails.

Really, it just doesn't matter. Go ride a bike....or not.

I've realized that for me it's the changing view-sheds, and variety. How much easier is it to keep pedaling when you can see new things, and always "just around the corner"? Often times when you're in the EC trees you can't see a fucking thing other then the trail in front of your face.

**My Pet Powder Goat** · 04-15-2016, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by milestogo

Hit me up when you come back. I can show you some fun trails you may not know about in Lamoille county.

That would be great! I haven't biked that Area much, though i do lots of trips tho mad river valley, Waterbury area (gotta feed my mad taco addiction.)

If youre ever in Orange -Windsor county look me up, lots of fun dirt roads , class 4 and farmland around

**RootSkier** · 04-15-2016, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by toast2266

I don't think anyone's saying that east coast isn't techy or that it isn't a shitload of fun. I think we're all just saying that DS is an idiot who can't actually ride that well.

This is pretty insulting to those of us who can't actually ride that well but nevertheless choose not be fucking idiots for 11 pages going on 20.

**toast2266** · 04-15-2016, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by RootSkier

This is pretty insulting to those of us who can't actually ride that well but nevertheless choose not be fucking idiots for 11 pages going on 20.

Sounds like the root of the issue is you're riding the wrong wheel size.

**jm2e** · 04-15-2016, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by acinpdx

probably not a mag in this video
not skilled enough

Thanks for posting that up. I'd been casually searching for a couple days for the right video from the German/Liteville boys.
The thing is, once you drop one of their several ass clenching videos into the mix, all discussions of who's got the most skillz and who's got the right wheel size goes out the fucking door.
These guys frequently switch out wheel sizes for where they're riding. On the steepest stuff, they'll go 29er up front and 26er in the back.
And ultimately, his laugh/yell at bottom of that scree slope should allow us to ----> /thread