ON3P SKIS Discussion

**adrenalated** · 09-25-2017, 04:15 PM

I'm similarly limited in time on one of the skis (in my case Kartels) but I'd pretty much agree with auvgeek that the most obvious difference on snow between a Wren and a Kartel is the mount point. All the other stuff is noticeable - bi-radius vs elliptical sidecut, different flex, different rocker profile - but for most people unsure of which to get, I'd say to consider how you like to stand on a ski to be the main deciding factor. If you like a more upright stance go Kartel, a more forward stance Wren.

**rainy512day** · 09-25-2017, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by uglymoney

I just don't want to get into the Wren 98 and end up with a ski that just wants to go fast with a tail that doesn't want to release when my form goes to shit which happens more than it used to.

Also 6' 1.5 197 formerly pretty strong skier. Hopefully back at it this year. Shopping 184 Wren not sure between 186 and 181 Kartel.

I picked up Wren 98’s late in the season for the conditions you describe. I really like that the tail will lock in. But I’ve also found that you can easily (and I mean very easily) release pressure and the tails release. So I wouldn’t be concerned about it.

**CascadeLuke** · 09-25-2017, 10:45 PM

Could an insider comment on if wood veneer drops some weight? Read in another thread 4-8 oz weight reduction. For example on a BG?

**Gman** · 09-26-2017, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by CascadeLuke

Could an insider comment on if wood veneer drops some weight? Read in another thread 4-8 oz weight reduction. For example on a BG?

I don't believe it's anything substantial. I don't think the top sheet weight is that much different than the veneer weight. That being said you could PM Powtron or Iggy to be sure.

**doebedoe** · 09-26-2017, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by CascadeLuke

Could an insider comment on if wood veneer drops some weight? Read in another thread 4-8 oz weight reduction. For example on a BG?

Praxis claims that weight savings (http://www.praxisskis.com/custom-ski-order-information/) but I'm not sure that ON3P does.

**CascadeLuke** · 09-26-2017, 10:34 AM

Thanks Gman. Yea, Doe that's where I drew the question from. Have ST116 189 with veneer on order - would be pleased if they got down to 2300g's a ski (-50g each). Not a major concern or problem tho..

**iggyskier** · 09-26-2017, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by CascadeLuke

Could an insider comment on if wood veneer drops some weight? Read in another thread 4-8 oz weight reduction. For example on a BG?

Generally the wood veneer is a bit lighter, but nothing crazy. A 181cm length topsheet, before it goes on the ski, weigh about 250 grams/ski (so less once it is actually in the shape of the ski itself). Maybe you could see a 2oz (~57 grams) change per ski from going to a wood veneer topsheet on a wider/longer ski. Closer to 4 oz per ski (~114 grams) would likely require some sort of other structural change - composite or core profile. We do tweak our composites to adjust for the wood veneer, but that has to do with stiffness more than weight.

**jvskinn** · 09-26-2017, 01:11 PM

Ugly,

This may be beat to death by now, but my daily driver is the old Jeffrey (110mm waist, similar to the Kartel) and I got to Demo the Wren 98's. Like you, I don't ski park. First off, you're right to consider the Kartel, they're awesome skis and can be a ton of fun. However, your concerns about the Wren 98's aren't really too big of a deal. I skied the Wrens in semi-soft big bumps and trees at one of the Loveland Demo's last year, and I was expecting a big mountain ski that wanted to go fast and straight. I was pleasantly surprised to find they handled bumps well and could be shut down super fast. They're a versatile ski, and I think they'd be perfect for what you're describing.

However, if you just want to try the Kartels, you may like them too. They're no slouch when you want to go fast and do not feel like a soft park ski. I think they tend to be underrated a bit on TGR because everyone here is a super hard charging big guy, but in the 186 I think you'd find they'll keep up with you pretty much anywhere you want to go.

Good luck, and have fun

**neck beard** · 09-26-2017, 01:48 PM

I saw some 3p's at Mt Hutt in NZ last weekend. Should have said hello, but I was on race carvers so... you know.

I worked my BG's pretty hard here as well this season, which was softer more often than normal. Ate up 100 of the biggest open alpine runs I've done in a season round here. I am drawn to the narrower version for NZ. Wish the 116mm BG would come in under 1.9kg for Japan pow touring.

**CascadeLuke** · 09-26-2017, 03:20 PM

Thanks Iggy

Originally Posted by iggyskier

Generally the wood veneer is a bit lighter, but nothing crazy. A 181cm length topsheet, before it goes on the ski, weigh about 250 grams/ski (so less once it is actually in the shape of the ski itself). Maybe you could see a 2oz (~57 grams) change per ski from going to a wood veneer topsheet on a wider/longer ski. Closer to 4 oz per ski (~114 grams) would likely require some sort of other structural change - composite or core profile. We do tweak our composites to adjust for the wood veneer, but that has to do with stiffness more than weight.

Not seeking drastic weight changes, but curious if you are still in the pursuit of a lighter core combo?

**PowTron** · 09-26-2017, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by auvgeek

To be fair, I was comparing stock versions based on a LL demo day in subpar conditions. I might be a slight exaggeration to say they ski the same, but my point was I found the mount point to be the most noticeable difference, not the flex or the way the tail released, etc. I should also clarify that my impressions were limited to 2D snow.

I know, I was just razzing you.

**iggyskier** · 09-26-2017, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by CascadeLuke

Thanks Iggy
Not seeking drastic weight changes, but curious if you are still in the pursuit of a lighter core combo?

Yeah it's still in the pipeline, but nothing we love as of yet and no plan to release anything soon. We have a couple other R&D projects that are higher priority right now, so focusing on those first.

**phallic-menace** · 09-26-2017, 06:45 PM

I'm back on the wrengade train. My replacement 108s are on their way and I couldn't be more stoked, on3p are so good to deal with. It's the kind of ski that does what you want it to and nothing you don't want it to do. Easiest ski to charge on I've ever ridden.

**uglymoney** · 09-26-2017, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by PowTron

Ugly,

Some others have said it, but the Wren 98 is a great choice for what you are describing.

With that said, the Kartels are absolutely not just for park (especially the Kartel 108/116). We have many customers and employees that ski the K108 as a daily driver and with the slightly lower tail than previous versions it rails groomers and skis exceptionally well going forward.

The mounting position isn't centered, but it's farther forward than Wrenegades, absolutely (Kartel 108 @ -4.5cm in 186 from core center).

As for them skiing the same between the Kartels and wrens I would tend to disagree, but everyone has their own style and stance (or extra stiff Kartels/Jeffries)

All that spewed, the Wren 98 is your perfect ski for what you described and we made it just for your requests.

Thanks for the reply Powtron. I'd have asked privately but I think this was a good discussion to have. I'm set on the 98 Wren 184 once I get done buying our 7 season passes and paying for race team for my little girl.

Originally Posted by Joey311

Like you I’m a traditional skier, and well into middle-age. Unlike you I am 5'7" 145lb. Last season and I spent quite a few days demoing ON3P skis, so maybe this will help. As far as your concern that the Wren 98 has a "tail that doesn't want to release". The one thing that really surprised me about the Wren 98 was how easy it was to smear and slarve. I expected the tail to be quite a bit more "locked in". This ski probably has more tip rocker than any other ski in its class.....and also has a decent amount of tail rocker. I skied them on a day with 8 inches of new and it was all the powder ski I needed. I’ve got a 88, 108 (Wren) and 116 (BG) so no need for a 98 in my quiver. But deciding between the 98 and the 108 for my middle ski was tough. Also the 174 was recommended for my height/weight, but I felt they skied short and definitely preferred the 179.

Thanks for jumping in with your first hand experience. Exactly what I want to hear! I'm struggled with the decision with width as well but my acl'd knee wants me to stay as skinny as possible on skis that are going to see hard snow.

Originally Posted by jvskinn

Ugly,

This may be beat to death by now, but my daily driver is the old Jeffrey (110mm waist, similar to the Kartel) and I got to Demo the Wren 98's. Like you, I don't ski park. First off, you're right to consider the Kartel, they're awesome skis and can be a ton of fun. However, your concerns about the Wren 98's aren't really too big of a deal. I skied the Wrens in semi-soft big bumps and trees at one of the Loveland Demo's last year, and I was expecting a big mountain ski that wanted to go fast and straight. I was pleasantly surprised to find they handled bumps well and could be shut down super fast. They're a versatile ski, and I think they'd be perfect for what you're describing.

However, if you just want to try the Kartels, you may like them too. They're no slouch when you want to go fast and do not feel like a soft park ski. I think they tend to be underrated a bit on TGR because everyone here is a super hard charging big guy, but in the 186 I think you'd find they'll keep up with you pretty much anywhere you want to go.

Good luck, and have fun

Thanks! I think I want both skis but I am going with the Wren.

Originally Posted by phallic-menace

I'm back on the wrengade train. My replacement 108s are on their way and I couldn't be more stoked, on3p are so good to deal with. It's the kind of ski that does what you want it to and nothing you don't want it to do. Easiest ski to charge on I've ever ridden.

One of the things that strikes me is how many Wrens I saw at JH last year. Tons. I saw bunch in Oootah as well though not quite as thick. And rarely are they for sale. That says something.

**PowTron** · 09-27-2017, 08:45 PM

No prob, glad you got some answers!

**auvgeek** · 09-27-2017, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by uglymoney

I think I want both skis but I am going with the Wren.

Wren 98 and Kartel 108. Problem solved.

**Banh Mi** · 09-29-2017, 09:59 AM

Mountain Water Snow has 191 Cease & Desists for $499 online or $449 store pickup.

I know somebody is looking for these. Asym is so hott right now

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**RudyGarmisch** · 09-29-2017, 03:07 PM

Last years isn't asym...

**adrenalated** · 09-29-2017, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Rowen

Last years isn't asym...

I thought last years C&D was asym? Then the BG got asym this year...

**iggyskier** · 09-29-2017, 03:36 PM

Last years was asymmetrical, but still asymmetrical over the center of the ski. New ones are asymmetrical, but also offset.

**Banh Mi** · 09-29-2017, 05:10 PM

I dont know what any of that means, but I trust both this years and last years C&Ds will ski well.

Who is your engineer? Props to him.

What does the new offset shape 2018 do better than the 2017? Is it just better (more smeary) in powder, or also better getting back to the lifts?

My Stoke is at historic levels on those 193 "super" Goats!

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**SupreChicken** · 09-29-2017, 05:58 PM

It is asymmetic though, dude! But this years is still better according to powtron.

Edit: and iggy it seems.

**Aus George** · 09-30-2017, 06:09 AM

I would really like to know (honestly here, I'm not being a dick) who would need the C&D? Most will agree Japow is some of the deepest in the world...? Right? My 2015 186 BG handles it fine, never wanted a wider ski... Which makes me wonder who would really need a monster like the C&D? Or better yet, where would you need one?

I want to get myself a pair as I dream of snow ghosts, but are yet to find many...

**Banh Mi** · 09-30-2017, 06:32 AM

Who needs the C&D? Anyone who lusts for RES, or anyone who lives in Big Snowfall places.

Where would you need a C&D? Anywhere that gets over 450-500" of snow

Obviously the Billy Goat will get the job done, but on seriously deep days, why not go for the best design for those conditions?

124mm isnt that wide. People ski 130mm or 140mm underfoot skis on big pow days out west.

You definitely dont need them in Australia. But you should still "want" them..

Someone snagged those ones on MWS. Who done it??

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**SupreChicken** · 09-30-2017, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by Aus George

I would really like to know (honestly here, I'm not being a dick) who would need the C&D? Most will agree Japow is some of the deepest in the world...? Right? My 2015 186 BG handles it fine, never wanted a wider ski... Which makes me wonder who would really need a monster like the C&D? Or better yet, where would you need one?

I want to get myself a pair as I dream of snow ghosts, but are yet to find many...

Fair question. Shortly after the TGR film comes through Seattle each year, I become convinced that I need to fill the "superfat" quiver spot. I've made some legitimate attempts: liberty genome, h20 karen'cito, lotus 138, protest, a custom ski from ullr skis...even tried a Caylor in that spot.

Protest was my favorite of the bunch, Caylor a close second, and I pretty much hated the other 4...but nothing was consistently worth reaching for on big inbounds days over the billy goat.

Japan last year, i took Billy goats/cast and Quixote/vipecs. I never needed a fatter ski, but I wanted one. There were also some pretty seriously deep early season days at Stevens pass last year where even on billy goats, I wanted more ski.

These are not super frequent moments, but they do happen. I've made being cheap an art form when it comes to superfats, because it's not hard to find them cheap here.

I'm into "poor man pays 7 times" territory, though. There are some > 125mm waisted skis that still have my interest. C&D, spooned praxis pow or protest, Magic J, Dps spoon, lotus 138 spoon...

Most of these can't be had on the cheap. Maybe it's the wrong forum, but I never see magic J's for sale.

So I'm probably going to just go ahead and get the thing I already know I'll love -- the C&D.

Or I'll keep living the light quiver life of a cheap person. One of my finest accomplishments was getting down to 3 pairs of skis last year.