ON3P SKIS Discussion

[Brady586]

I had ~4 amazing, shit eating grin days on the Wren 108. They felt intuitive right off that bat and so confidence inspiring, even in variable chopped up stuff I would normally have been much more cautious on. Became my favorite ski in the quiver right away.

Then I got lazy one week (or worked 70+ hours and had no time) and got them shop tuned instead of doing it myself. Didn't pay close attention to the amount of detuning, ran my finger over the edges and wasn't razor sharp so figured I was fine. Took them out that next day and they were a totally different, mildly terrifying ski. Erratically locked in turns and had to fight the tails so much. Did 3 runs to see if I could slarve away the edges and it was just too much. If that was my first day on them I would have never given them another go.

I put them away and detuned them aggressively well past contact points, skied like magic again the next day. I love them but more than any other ski in my quiver they're tune specific. Won't bring them to a shop again since I don't trust them to know how to dial it in.

So I can see why people have such opposing experiences.

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[klauss]

Why didn't you come to Alpental and school us all?

I am not saying I can school anyone, but it does read that way. I always ask the shop tech to set my din at 20

just that the ski works really well for me and I tried to elaborate why more than my usual non-detailed responses on this matter. What you and plenty of other have now described with the hookiness, does not match my experience at all.

I did want to go to BBI but I fathered too many children, one of which is in a weekly program at eh local hill

[Chugachjed]

I picked up a pair of 186 wren 102s from a local mag the other day. Going to mount with vipecs/tectons and I’m wondering if there was a consensus to mount on the line or back. Never skiied an ON3P before. These are going to be 80% touring for me. I dug through the relevant thread but it’s hard to pick out the info I was looking for in that morass.

[terpskier]

It's in the 19/20 gear thread...

I could be wrong but I only saw one very short review that mentioned it was similar to the mindbender 108 but more versatile.

It’s looking like I’ll be living in Boston next year and not getting many days so I’ll be in the market for the Woodsman 96. Anyone have any time on that ski?


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[Cdubmpdx]

Just here to vouch for the w108. I haven't seen all the post you guys are talking about with the hate, but I got along with it instantly, I have last year's version so and can't speak to this year's, not sure which the reviews are about. I'm definitely not the hardest charger but I ski pretty aggressive. I'm also not the biggest guy 5'9 170-175lbs. The Wren has never felt grabby, feels confident bombing just about anything from groom to chop, stomps landings, I love the way it skis pow. As others mentioned, not great on ice but also not the right tool for the job in that situation. I had a bit of trouble in tight trees the first day I demo's them but learned quick how to get them around. Hold a line when you need them to, break loose on command. I'm guessing a lot of this comes to style and preference, maybe location and snow type, tune sounds like a lot to do with it as well.

Anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinions and not every ski works for everyone, but the Wren is a very fun ski. I use it as a one quiver (asinine I know, only 1?!?), budget and family needs call for such quiver. It fills the need very well in the PNW, can't imagine any major conflicts unless it just doesn't jive with style or maybe the wrong tune.

The w108 really turned me on to ON3P and has made me a life long customer as long as Iggy keeps churning out skis. I'll likely get some. BGs and possible a narrower woodman in the hopefully near future.

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[galibier_numero_un]

I need to give a big shout-out to Iggy for putting up with me in a chat session a couple weeks ago. Iggy – I’ll be buying something again from ya … sooner or later. Your patience with us is extraordinary.

I’ve been going back and forth about a BG vs. a C&D after the stupid mistake of selling my 15/16 BGs last March. It seems like forever since I’d been on them when it’s been less than a year. That oughta clue you in to my seller’s remorse.

After my chat with Iggy, I was getting real close to pulling the trigger on a pair of C&Ds, but in the back of my head (it’s dark and dangerous in there) I kept thinking that I get to pull out a fattie like this maybe 5 days a year on a great year. I get the fact that you can take them out in 6” of fresh, but when there’s 6” around here it’s very likely over crust, so a pair of Goats or my Down CD 114s seem more appropriate to the tassk.

Complicating matters (with respect to BGs) is the fact that I'm not sold on asym. on harder, 2D snow (admitedly based on Qs).

One thing that was steering me toward the C&Ds however, is that they’re a bit better at slow speed than the Goats, and I’m in a lot of dense trees in Colorado.

In another thread, @I’ve Seen Black Diamonds made a salient point: that his biggest regrets came from selling skis that didn’t quite fit his quiver, in spite of them being skis he liked. Words to take seriously, and mistakes I've made as well.

My last screw-up came from this flawed “logic” of filling in my quiver - selling my BGs to make room for Protests. I ended up selling my favorite powder ski (the BGs), and I’m one of the minority whose reaction to the Protests was “meh” at best. To top it off, I never quite bonded fully with my Quixotes, but at least I had my Down CD 114s for those variable days when it can get real scratchy by late morning.

So here we are again, looking to fill in the powder side of the quiver. The C&Ds still made “logical” sense, but how many opportunities would I have on an average year to take them out in their ideal habitat - 12+ inches?

Along comes @lucknau who put his 2014 Goats (186cm , tour layup, 10.0 Lbs.) on the market. Picking these up would buy me some time and get me back in the game. After a Swiss-Cheese experiment, I got my Pivots mounted (https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...20#post5580820).

The first day out was really confusing. I’m not sure if @lucknau had storage wax on them, but it was brutal at the top of A-Basin (-7F / -21C). Everyone was passing me on catwalks. They felt sticky and not all that good on hardpack. On the 3-6 inches I was able to hunt down, they showed signs of “Goat-ness” but they were still a bit unpredictable, in a ‘grab-n-go’ sort of way.

I got them home and decided to plane down the bases (took very little off) and re-establish a 1/1 bevel. The bevel was real close, but there were areas where material was coming off unevenly. As usual, I detuned to the start of the sidecut, layed down some cold weather wax, scraped and brushed.

The next day, I stole off for a quick morning in less than ideal conditions at a nearby hill. My curiosity wouldn't let me wait any longer to check the tune. On refrozen groomers, they were acceptable – hard to hold an edge on a carve, but well-damped, predictable, and in no way scary if I respected their limits. So far, so good. They're not Wren 108s - doh.

Three days later, I got them out into more of their intended habitat - a 5” day that varied from 8-10” stashes, to chopped up snow, to dust over crust. They handled everything with aplomb.

Much has been made about the year to year improvements in hard snow capability of the Goats, and if pressed, I’d say that my 15/16 Goats (std. layup) were slightly better than these ’14s in a touring layup. Take into account that it’s been 11 months since I skied those Goats, and the touring vs. std. layup comparison.

These Goats still want to run in wide-open spaces, but they do pivot as reported – more so than my 15/16 Goats. For me, this was a good trade-off (giving up a bit of hard snow performance for pivot-ability).

It’s been a few false-starts to the year and I’ve lost some conditioning due to bronchitis, so my quads feel like it’s November again. I’m a bit slow from edge to edge. The skis feel fairly quick in the trees, and the limitations seem to be me and not the skis.

Still, I wonder (from one of the positives I experienced with my Quixotes) if the current Goats with asym. would be quicker. Me and asym. don’t have a good history on hard snow however, so if pressed, I’d be more comfortable risking this architecture in a C&D which would likely never see anything hard.

All of this is to say, that I think @Suprechicken and others are on to something with the C&Ds in their Fat Goat / Tour layup. They might have to happen – either later this season or next. The fact that they're such a niche ski means that they're not in the demo fleet however :-(

Oh yeah ... I've been getting a lot of "what are those?" from the lifties.



… Thom

[sf]

I picked up a pair of 186 wren 102s from a local mag the other day. Going to mount with vipecs/tectons and I’m wondering if there was a consensus to mount on the line or back. Never skiied an ON3P before. These are going to be 80% touring for me. I dug through the relevant thread but it’s hard to pick out the info I was looking for in that morass.

I've skied them on the line, never bothered to test anything else.

Could have gone back 1cm, would not go forward.

They ski pow very well at the line, float a lot better than the waist suggest.

The tail is pretty traditional, they don't like noodeling around in heavy/crusty snow

[TahoeJ]

Just adding to the W108 love... I still wonder about the tune on those demo skis. Squirrely is the exact opposite of my experience with them. Like Klauss I’m flabbergasted...

[Cdubmpdx]

Just adding to the W108 love... I still wonder about the tune on those demo skis. Squirrely is the exact opposite of my experience with them. Like Klauss I’m flabbergasted...

The demo's were picked up from the ON3P factory so I would think the tune was on point, but could have been off I guess. Skied the K108 the next week and ultimately came back to purchasing the w108, so it didn't bother me that much.

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[lucknau]

I need to give a big shout-out to Iggy for putting up with me in a chat session a couple weeks ago. Iggy – I’ll be buying something again from ya … sooner or later. Your patience with us is extraordinary.

I’ve been going back and forth about a BG vs. a C&D after the stupid mistake of selling my 15/16 BGs last March. It seems like forever since I’d been on them when it’s been less than a year. That oughta clue you in to my seller’s remorse.

After my chat with Iggy, I was getting real close to pulling the trigger on a pair of C&Ds, but in the back of my head (it’s dark and dangerous in there) I kept thinking that I get to pull out a fattie like this maybe 5 days a year on a great year. I get the fact that you can take them out in 6” of fresh, but Goats ‘ll do ya just fine, and when there’s 6” around here it’s very likely over crust, so a pair of Goats or my Down CD 114s seem more appropriate to the task.

One thing that was steering me toward the C&Ds is that they’re a bit better at slow speed than the Goats, and I’m in a lot of dense trees in Colorado.

In another thread, @I’ve Seen Black Diamonds made a salient point: that his biggest regrets came from selling skis that didn’t quite fit his quiver, in spite of them being skis he liked. Words to take seriously, and mistakes I've made as well.

My last screw-up came from this flawed “logic” of filling in my quiver - selling my BGs to make room for Protests. I ended up selling my favorite powder ski (the BGs), and I’m one of the minority whose reaction to the Protests was “meh” at best. To top it off, I never quite bonded fully with my Quixotes, but at least I had my Down CD 114s for those variable days when it can get real scratchy by late morning.

So here we are again, looking to fill in the fat side of the quiver. The C&Ds still made “logical” sense, but what ski would I pull out of the rooftop carrier the most – a BG or a C&D?

Along comes @lucknau who put his 2014 Goats (186cm , tour layup, 10.0 Lbs.) on the market. Picking these up would buy me some time and get me back in the game. After a Swiss-Cheese experiment, I got my Pivots mounted (https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...20#post5580820).

The first day out was really confusing. I’m not sure if @lucknau had storage wax on them, but it was brutal at the top of A-basin (-7F / -21C) and I could barely get moving. The skis felt sticky and not all that good on hardpack. On the 3-6 inches I was able to hunt down, they showed signs of “Goat-ness” but they were still a bit unpredictable, in a ‘grab-n-go’ sort of way.

I got them home and decided to plane down the bases (took very little off) and re-establish a 1/1 bevel. The bevel was real close, but there were areas where material was coming off unevenly. As usual, I detuned to the start of the sidecut, layed down some cold weather wax, scraped and brushed.

The next day, I stole off for a quick morning in less than ideal conditions at a nearby hill. My curiosity wouldn't let me wait any longer to check the tune. On refrozen groomers, they were acceptable – hard to hold an edge on a carve, but well-damped, predictable, and in no way scary if I respected their limits. So far, so good.

Three days later, I got them out into more of their intended habitat - a 5” day that varied from 8-10” stashes, to chopped up snow, to dust over crust. They handled everything with aplomb. Much has been made about the year to year improvements in hard snow capability of the Goats, and if pressed, I’d say that my 15/16 Goats (std. layup) were slightly better than these ’14 in a touring layup. Take into account it’s been 11 months, and the touring vs. standard layup.

These Goats still want to run in wide-open spaces, but they do pivot as reported – more so than my 15/16 Goats if pressed to compare the two.

It’s been a few false-starts to the year and I’ve lost some conditioning due to bronchitis, so my quads feel like it’s November again. I’m a bit slow from edge to edge. The skis feel fairly quick in the trees, and the limitations seem to be my quads and not the skis. Still, I wonder (from one of the positives I experienced with my Quixotes) if the current Goats with asym. would be quicker. Me and asym. don’t have a good history on hard snow however, so if pressed, I’d be more comfortable risking this architecture in a C&D which would likely never see anything hard.

All of this is to say, that I think @Suprechicken and others are on to something with the C&Ds in their Fat Goat / Tour layup. They might have to happen – either later this season or next.



… Thom

It was storage wax, yes.

[Gnar_Shralp406]

Action shot from a day touring on my Wren 112s.

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[klauss]

Party shot

[galibier_numero_un]

Just adding to the W108 love... I still wonder about the tune on those demo skis. Squirrely is the exact opposite of my experience with them. Like Klauss I’m flabbergasted...

I spent a lot of time (above), talking about the tune and dialing in those '14 BGs for exactly this reason. Folks trivialize this.

In a conversation with Powtron a couple of years ago, he commented on the obvious necessity of of striking a balance on the amount of detuning they do. There's no single solution for everyone.

There's also the possibility that the person before you beat the crap out of the skis. This happened to me on a scratchy demo day with a pair of K108s.

I realize this wasn't the case with Cdubmpdx, but it's worth mentioning.

... Thom

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[galibier_numero_un]

It was storage wax, yes.

I feel better now ;-)

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[TripleT]

I searched every thread page since nov for “96” for beta on the wren96 and came up with surprisingly little. Blister review gives high praise but anyone else have input?

[DumbIdeasOnly]

Billy goats are awesome. Best wide ski I've ever used in tight trees and day after soft bumps/chop. Still great at charging open faces.

Went in a decidedly non-TGR approved direction with 19 oz glass instead of 21 oz for a custom build over the summer. Didn't find the speed limit in chop even with that change (possibly related: have a few broken bones at the moment), but they honestly feel like cheating in trees.

Am very curious about what a Super Goat or Cease and Desist would feel like now to go in the opposite direction though (Two ski quiver: diet goats for tight/fat goats for wide).

Those complaining about hard snow performance - what's the issue? Based on advice in this thread I thought centered thoughts and they never felt too weird to me in the occasional scraped off section. I would not be surprised if Wildcats are better at hard snow based on how the 108 tours work, but honestly not sure I need that level of hard snow performance in a 116 ski given how many skis I own. I could imagine a really scraped off steep chute entrance being sketchy but (at least this year's model) is far from terrible back to the lift.

[2FUNKY]

Just adding to the W108 love... I still wonder about the tune on those demo skis. Squirrely is the exact opposite of my experience with them. Like Klauss I’m flabbergasted...

In regards to the demo fleet at BBI, it was definitely a tune issue. That ski is not to much stick for any of the guys I saw trying it. I wanted on it but the grumbling of others kept me on my own skis.

[margotron]

Havin a time on my Avergreene SG's!

https://www.instagram.com/p/Btw78l8l...=1vhmqzr4zbf6m

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fuck dude you can ski

[CallMeAl]

In regards to the demo fleet at BBI, it was definitely a tune issue. That ski is not to much stick for any of the guys I saw trying it. I wanted on it but the grumbling of others kept me on my own skis.

I don't know what to say about this theory- I went out and skied the Wren 108 and Wren 108TI from my demo fleet today, both 184 length. I brought a stone expecting to use it, but didn't.

I can't speak about whatever ski was being passed around/complained about on Saturday, but the tune on both pairs of 184 Wrens in my demo fleet is fine- just like they were for the four consecutive demo days that they went out on leading up to BBI, where the only feedback I got on the tune was "They're fast.".

These are honest findings, I don't know what they mean or imply-I'm only sharing information with the intent of being constructive. Nice meeting you guys.

[Self Jupiter]

Great meeting you CMA, and thanks again for coming through!

[Sessiøn]

Maybe the grumblers just aren't as front of the boot skiers as they think they are. Personal experience, they like to be driven harder than I like to drive. That's why I don't ski Wren's.

[2FUNKY]

I don't know what to say about this theory- I went out and skied the Wren 108 and Wren 108TI from my demo fleet today, both 184 length. I brought a stone expecting to use it, but didn't.

I can't speak about whatever ski was being passed around/complained about on Saturday, but the tune on both pairs of 184 Wrens in my demo fleet is fine- just like they were for the four consecutive demo days that they went out on leading up to BBI, where the only feedback I got on the tune was "They're fast.".

These are honest findings, I don't know what they mean or imply-I'm only sharing information with the intent of being constructive. Nice meeting you guys.

It was said due to the fact that guys were saying the skis are too burly for the testers. I was just stating that the testers are guys who love burly skis that need to be driven as I ski with them and we all have just as burly skis in the quiver, if not more so or owned very burly skis. They didn’t flex crazy burly to me.
I admit I wish I skied them to see for myself. The testers are guys I ski with and we all understand the effect a tune has on a ski. I was using them to see which skis I may like and want to ride. The grumblings kept me from skiing them as we like similar skis. That was a mistake.

Maybe the grumblers just aren't as front of the boot skiers as they think they are. Personal experience, they like to be driven harder than I like to drive. That's why I don't ski Wren's.

Yeah, ok. Ever see LVS ski? Dude drives the front of the boot more than most. All the testers are solid skiers and prefer skis that need to be driven. The issue wasn’t with them needing a solid pilot, it was with the hookyness of the ski and the lack of the ski to track well. One common theme I kept hearing was the ski wanted to hook up hill when put on edge. No charging ski should do that with a proper tune.

Great meeting you CMA, and thanks again for coming through!

This in spades. This was not meant as a dig on you CMA by any stretch. Huge props for bringing the fleet with you for us to test. Please continue to do so as our short conversation was enjoyed. You seem like a super solid guy and a solid guy to be representing the ON3P name/product.

[Gman]

I could be wrong but I only saw one very short review that mentioned it was similar to the mindbender 108 but more versatile.

It’s looking like I’ll be living in Boston next year and not getting many days so I’ll be in the market for the Woodsman 96. Anyone have any time on that ski?


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The woodsman isn’t out for the public yet. Where in Boston are you going to be?

[jackattack]

Yeah, ok. Ever see LVS ski?

Yeah, I have seen him detune a ski too. [sarcasm]He’s almost as aggressive a skier as he is with that whetstone I mean “gummi” he has. [/sarcasm] I think it’s safe to say he’s pretty sensitive to a sharp edge.

Also, the wrens he skied were not in the demo fleet. From what I recall he skied them on Saturday after Al left.

Obviously, I’m biased on the Wren 108 conversation because I ski the 189 as a DD. My pair is extremely predictable, will run completely flat without wandering, but they are big skis and can be a handful in bumps... which is pretty much all that was left on Saturday at Alpy. When I got them from Aever they were sharp AF. But even in that state I didn’t think they were unpredictable, but the tails did have a tendency to hang up occasionally when finishing a turn. I detuned the tails to the contact point but other than that, nothing. Tails release fine now and they skis hold an edge on reasonable hard pack.

I skied many of the fleet skis both on Tuesday at WWSRA and Friday at Alpy. I experienced no “tune” issues, but there were some quirks with the PROTOTYPE models (metal wrens in particular) that Al acknowledged because they’re PROTOTYPES.

[mr_pretzel]

You can’t just ski metal wrens and not say more than that