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  1. #6826
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    Nov 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by kid-kapow View Post

    Can't wait for people to start getting on the new ti wrens and providing feedback. PowTron seems to have gotten along with his pretty well
    I’d probably mutilate - or at least break the bones - of anyone who tried to take my Metal Wren 108’s away from me...

    Biggest reason I have to get through knee rehab and be back stronger than ever = METAL 108
    You should have been here yesterday!

  2. #6827
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    Jan 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by PowTron View Post
    I’d probably mutilate - or at least break the bones - of anyone who tried to take my Metal Wren 108’s away from me...

    Biggest reason I have to get through knee rehab and be back stronger than ever = METAL 108
    Can you give a comparo to a Cochise, LP105, or similar metal charger?


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  3. #6828
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
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    LaLa Land
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    3,172
    Quote Originally Posted by Bandit Man View Post
    The notion that a BG is NOT a great AK ski is intriguing. I guess I should finally book a trip to test the hypothesis first hand...I mean many of us have been training for Alaska for several years now, so it makes sense.
    I gotta say, it's a difference beast than anything I have experienced before, whether living in JH, skiing Mammoth, or Yurp.

    The scale and sustained steep pitch is insane. That leads to super high speeds if you wanna let it hang out in front of the sluff.

    The snow quality is unique. The week we were there wasn't deep, but call it boot topish and the consistency changes as you go down into the pack. Top is super light, bottom isn't which is why it sticks to these ridiculous faces. Then add in old avi debris, sluff debris which is constant and everywhere, constant sluff management, and the occasional piece of hard pack where the wind stripped the snow and its a cocktail of interesting snow to make sure you can handle while going mach schnell.

    So for this guy, I wanted to ensure I was forward and charging or your going to get bucked off, but to do that you had to have faith the tip wouldn't get hung up on sluff, chunder, or that thicker layer down low in the pack. This was problem A, as the tips of the BG's will go down with too much of a drivey technique. Nothing to do with tails washing out btw.

    2nd problem was that they felt a bit twitchy or wanted to turn with that really interesting combo of light and dense snow consistency. This was felt when riding the edge and the edge would go into the denser snow, you could feel it want to turn more than I was looking for. This wasn't riding flat as someone speculated as you don't ride shit flat there or your going Mach schnell. Too steep, at least for this guy. Always on edge.

    I get the 2 footed skiing, and have felt how fun the skis are at Mammoth. I was pretty sold, even though I knew I couldn't fully drive the tips. They are a really fun combination of pivoty while being reasonably stable on Mammoth scale runs. Think 1500 sustained vert that is steep, but not puckering steep. Then throw in steeper, longer terrain, that has sluff cascading and you are going way faster and it gets "interesting" . I see why the PNW crew has a hardon for them. They are sweet in the techy steep short lines in the thick snow through woods that I have experienced there.

    I could get over the slightly pivoty / twitchy wanna turn feeling if I could stand on that tip and know it wasn't diving. As the guide said, 3 rules here: No avalanches, no tomahawking, and ski pow. Can't go over the bars and tomahawk as the consequences are pretty big. One dude dislocated his shoulder tomahawking while I was there and led to another, a former PSIA examiner demo team member, tomahawking 1500 feet with his skis going >3000ft.

    So I want a bit more tip to drive, for me, as I agree it is preference. My ideal AK style, in my dreams of course, is Nobis, versus a more centered pivot style, so that likely has something to do with it.

    BTW, Leo Slemmet is the mang!. He, Connery Lundin, and Jackie Passo were there during our week and Leo just slayed it. We are hanging out in the PZ and our guide looks up and goes "holy chit!" and we see Leo drop a double and come out absolutely hauling ass! Super impressive. Really humble nice dude as well. Interesting to hear the radio chatter as even the pro's had a hard time picking their lines from the top. As Jackie wrote, I think on Instagram, it's way harder / more difficult to scope your line in a few seconds from a heli than she is used to. When it rolls over in AK, you have no idea what's on the other side unless you were able to scope it out which is harder there because of the scale, lack of trees, and other features to see from the top as markers.

    Yes, BM, you need to go! It blew my mind and was the dream trip I had waited 25 years for.
    He who has the most fun wins!

  4. #6829
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    the ham
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    6,251
    The on edge comment wasn't really directed at you or anyone specifically, it's just that I've found that they will engage with random snow irregularities when you straight line run outs.

  5. #6830
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
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    Montana
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    170
    Quote Originally Posted by comish View Post
    at the end of the day I don't ski centered
    if this is true it's possible the BG isn't the ski for you, or any on3p ski for that matter. it took a bit for me to get out of the directional shin-on-cuff hard drive ski style to get all my on3p skis to open up for me. when i got more centered/balanced and played with my heel/ball of foot - holy cow was i amazed.

    my K108's require me to do this crazy ball of foot "dance" thing in tracked up terrain to get the tails to cooperate and i think for me that was what made my BG experience better. that and spending a lot of time in the trees with the BG, getting that centered feel down which also requires some strong quads for the long haul open bowl big mountain line skiing that i love. my (older gen) BG's are by far my favorite ski, i want to ski them every day but it doesn't dump pow every day right?

    as others have stated, do NOT stray far from the line on any RES ski, they get wonky. personal recommendation is remount on the line, that'll get it out of your head and let you ski the ski, and detune til you think its good then detune a little more, good luck

  6. #6831
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
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    NCW
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    2,054
    Quote Originally Posted by nickwm21 View Post
    Can you give a comparo to a Cochise, LP105, or similar metal charger?


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    Have you skied a wren 108? It skis like that, but more high frequency damping.

    It’s more loose and less demanding than the traditional metal charger. It will still hook up when put on edge and driven with the shin in the boot, but it’s still more centered than the LP105.

    If you’re looking for that locked in tail and traditional GS feel this is probably not the ski you’re looking for IMO.

  7. #6832
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
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    Mostly the Elks, mostly.
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    347
    supergoats like to eat corn too
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    Quote Originally Posted by detuned View Post
    as others have stated, do NOT stray far from the line on any RES ski, they get wonky. personal recommendation is remount on the line, that'll get it out of your head and let you ski the ski, and detune til you think its good then detune a little more, good luck
    +1 on all this. Amazing what a difference a detune made on the SG's. So responsive now.

  8. #6833
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    Feb 2019
    Location
    Albuquerque
    Posts
    33
    The 2020 line is now out on their website!!!

  9. #6834
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    34
    I know a couple centimeters here and there may not make a difference when evaluating the whole ski, but I’d be interested to learn why a 186 Jeffrey and a 187 woodsman have the same effective edge, implying the woodsman has a very similar amount of rocker. I would’ve thought the woodsman’s rocker profile and thus effective edge would’ve fallen in between Jeffrey and Wrenegade. Unless of course the data on the site is wrong


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  10. #6835
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA
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    185
    FWIW I took Wren 108’s to Tailgate AK this spring. Conditions were not optimal. Wrens were.

    Someone needs to talk me out of having a Wren 108 for daily driver touring and Wren 108Ti for resort.

  11. #6836
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    175
    Quote Originally Posted by Rowen View Post
    FWIW I took Wren 108’s to Tailgate AK this spring. Conditions were not optimal. Wrens were.

    Someone needs to talk me out of having a Wren 108 for daily driver touring and Wren 108Ti for resort.
    I think iggy said the Ti comes in lighter, so maybe two Ti's, not really talking you out of anything, just saying.

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  12. #6837
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    Jun 2005
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    3,107
    Quote Originally Posted by terpskier View Post
    I know a couple centimeters here and there may not make a difference when evaluating the whole ski, but I’d be interested to learn why a 186 Jeffrey and a 187 woodsman have the same effective edge, implying the woodsman has a very similar amount of rocker. I would’ve thought the woodsman’s rocker profile and thus effective edge would’ve fallen in between Jeffrey and Wrenegade. Unless of course the data on the site is wrong


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    I doubt the site is wrong. EE just a piece of the puzzle. It alone doesn’t speak to tip/tail rocker profiles, taper, radius, mount point, flex etc....

    Two skis of same length and same EE could be entirely different beasts.
    Uno mas

  13. #6838
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Portland
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    2,986
    *Preface. This is how we use the terms. Others might us other definitions. But alas...this is how we use the terms.

    Effective Edge = Sidecut Length. It is wholly independent of rocker.

    Running Length is likely what you are thinking of, which = uncambered base to base length.

    Regardless of how the ski is flexed/rockered/cambered, the flat length between widest tip/widest tail is fixed. That is EE.

    A couple other things just to stew on with EE.

    1) Tip/Tail taper length. What is the ratio of tip to tail taper? The Woodsman, for example, has more tip taper, less tail taper than the Jeffrey. So while the listed EE might be similar, the end product on the ski is different.
    2) How is the EE dispersed over the ski? Aka, how does mount & tip/tail taper affect the dispersion of EE over the ski's sidecut? In a -4 and -10 mounted ski, that dispersion is very different.

    Same questions can be applied to running length. 150cm of running length applied to different parts of two skis can create two very different skis.

    Trying to convey this info - without 1) giving too much info away and 2) causing all your eyes to roll back in your heads is something we are working on, but it is really easy to get in the weeds. Right now, we're more interesting in trying to get people to understand Ski Platforms, as opposed to 1-2cm differences in EE, running length, etc.

    This goes to something I posted awhile back on why I felt 5 dimensions skis are dumb. These specs sheets give a base level info, but it is really easy to pass on info that is unpractical in its use as a consumer. There is no standard on what "5" dimensions mean, and literally every ski in existence can be 5, or 7, or 20 dimension skis if we want. So, there are two listed points on the 5-dim specs that practically mean nothing, only that it is the point between 0 and the widest point on the ski that the designer decided to plant a flag.

    Understanding the ski's platform - and how that changes the fundamental aspects of the ski's design - is a concept we're trying to roll out this year because it is how you understand how two skis, with the same EE, same running length, same width, and even same radius if we wanted....can be dramatically different with a few tweaks.

    I know specs are fun to analyze, but I just like to remind people they are a base level info for a reason.

    Not sure that helps shed too much light on things, but hopefully gives you a bit of insight into why we don't go crazy posting specs. To us, the extra specs don't accurately convey much more information, and to do so in a fully complete fashion would more or less require giving up the full ski designs - something we're not interested in doing.
    Seriously, this can’t turn into yet another ON3P thread....

  14. #6839
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    Nov 2006
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    ColoRADo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowen View Post
    FWIW I took Wren 108’s to Tailgate AK this spring. Conditions were not optimal. Wrens were.

    Someone needs to talk me out of having a Wren 108 for daily driver touring and Wren 108Ti for resort.
    Do it, pansy ass.
    You should have been here yesterday!

  15. #6840
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    34
    Quote Originally Posted by iggyskier View Post
    *Preface. This is how we use the terms. Others might us other definitions. But alas...this is how we use the terms.

    Effective Edge = Sidecut Length. It is wholly independent of rocker.

    Running Length is likely what you are thinking of, which = uncambered base to base length.

    Regardless of how the ski is flexed/rockered/cambered, the flat length between widest tip/widest tail is fixed. That is EE.
    That makes sense. You’re right, I was thinking of the uncambered distance between contact points at tip and tail.

    Now that I think about it though, your definition of the term makes way more sense to me for modern skis considering that when the ski is tipped over on edge, the maximum amount of edge you could have contacting the snow is the length you guys describe and not the length I was thinking of.

    I appreciate what you guys are trying to do in terms of bringing some transparency to ski design and how different designs/tweaks do different things. Though it honestly almost makes my decision harder as I’m set on picking up a pair of skis from you guys to use as a one-ski quiver next year and probably for the next few years, but I now have a harder time deciding what aspects of skiing I wanna sacrifice by getting a specific pair of skis when I do go skiing (fun vs stable vs switch riding vs edge grip vs etc). Either way, thanks to you and the entire ON3P team for all you guys do


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  16. #6841
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
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    seatown
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    3,218
    i think im gonna mount my wren 108s with touring bindings for euroland next year. bit more vert friendly than the stiff K116s i brought this year, and the added versatility as well.

    the ti intrigues me, but my whole play with the standard wren was to quit skiing moguls on a metal ski (cochise) all the time, acting like i can.

    i could probably replace my 4 ON3P skis with the right size Woodsman and call it a day but that would be no fun.

  17. #6842
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Cascades
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    513

    ON3P SKIS Discussion

    Apologies for not reading through gobbles if pages...

    For 19/20
    Wren (non Ti)- unchanged?
    Jeffery - unchanged Kartel, rebranded?

    What then exactly is the woodsman? I thought wren = directional yet with some pop, Jeffery = poppy/jibby with some backbone.
    If woodsman is between not quite sure what that is....
    Last edited by TripleT; 04-24-2019 at 12:12 AM.

  18. #6843
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    Nov 2018
    Posts
    13
    Will metal be a custom option going forward?


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  19. #6844
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    602
    Quote Originally Posted by TripleT View Post
    Apologies for not reading through gobbles if pages...

    For 19/20
    Wren (non Ti)- unchanged?
    Jeffery - unchanged Kartel, rebranded?

    What then exactly is the woodsman? I thought wren = directional yet with some pop, Jeffery = poppy/jibby with some backbone.
    If woodsman is between not quite sure what that is....
    Just read the thread, going backwards or think who of the posters in this thread that is the most likely to have provided the information you are seeking and look in their profiles (hint: Iggyskier). All of these questions have been answered multiple times over lately as well as linked to additional info on other sites, and are increasingly answered on ON3P.com as the new range is posted in greater detail.

    I simply do not get people who are so lazy that they cannot be bothered to even try to get something that they want - especially when it takes minimal effort, yet are cheeky enough ask other people to take the effort they can't be arsed to and just provide everything for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomFromNS View Post
    Will metal be a custom option going forward?
    I know they are exploring it, but it will not be an option until 2021 at the earliest as far as I know. Iggy, please correct me if I misunderstood something.

    Since the lay up (for instance core thinkness) basically have to be redesinged specific to the model when you add metal, I would expect it to become an option one model at the time (if it makes sense) as time ticks by, not across the board.

  20. #6845
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
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    Encinitas CA
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    76

    ON3P SKIS Discussion

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    What testing ski is jonniemerril on in this instagram pic? Swallowtail design? More speculation for this thread.


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  21. #6846
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    Dec 2009
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    Portlandia
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickbokhoven View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    What testing ski is jonniemerril on in this instagram pic? Swallowtail design? More speculation for this thread.


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    I mean it's pretty evident...snowblades. I would bet he just cut down some of his skis for closing day at Alta.
    Training for Alpental

  22. #6847
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    Oct 2006
    Location
    Bellevue
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    5,068
    Quote Originally Posted by PhiberAwptik View Post
    I mean it's pretty evident...snowblades. I would bet he just cut down some of his skis for closing day at Alta.
    Pffft he's just testing the front half of the upcoming 200+ cm BG

  23. #6848
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    in the trench
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    9,042
    Quote Originally Posted by NWFlow View Post
    +4mm is nothing
    Quote Originally Posted by acinpdx View Post
    He said +4 mm, not cm
    Ah yes. My bad. I gapped on that. Thanks. 4"mm" should be typical BG impossible to tip dive

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  24. #6849
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    Aug 2011
    Location
    Der Town
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    6,414
    Admit it... ON3P snowblades would sell.

  25. #6850
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Cascades
    Posts
    513
    Quote Originally Posted by kid-kapow View Post
    ....and are increasingly answered on ON3P.com as the new range is posted in greater detail.
    Alright alright, point taken.
    FWIW, it’s reading the new info and marketing copy on on3p.com that brought me to the question in the first place. To me the differentiation between the skis isn’t super clear. Especially bc the description for the wren is still the ‘19 info.

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