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  1. #6251
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    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeJ View Post
    Just adding to the W108 love... I still wonder about the tune on those demo skis. Squirrely is the exact opposite of my experience with them. Like Klauss Iím flabbergasted...
    I spent a lot of time (above), talking about the tune and dialing in those '14 BGs for exactly this reason. Folks trivialize this.

    In a conversation with Powtron a couple of years ago, he commented on the obvious necessity of of striking a balance on the amount of detuning they do. There's no single solution for everyone.

    There's also the possibility that the person before you beat the crap out of the skis. This happened to me on a scratchy demo day with a pair of K108s.

    I realize this wasn't the case with Cdubmpdx, but it's worth mentioning.

    ... Thom

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  2. #6252
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucknau View Post
    It was storage wax, yes.
    I feel better now ;-)

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  3. #6253
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    I searched every thread page since nov for ď96Ē for beta on the wren96 and came up with surprisingly little. Blister review gives high praise but anyone else have input?

  4. #6254
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    Billy goats are awesome. Best wide ski I've ever used in tight trees and day after soft bumps/chop. Still great at charging open faces.

    Went in a decidedly non-TGR approved direction with 19 oz glass instead of 21 oz for a custom build over the summer. Didn't find the speed limit in chop even with that change (possibly related: have a few broken bones at the moment), but they honestly feel like cheating in trees.

    Am very curious about what a Super Goat or Cease and Desist would feel like now to go in the opposite direction though (Two ski quiver: diet goats for tight/fat goats for wide).

    Those complaining about hard snow performance - what's the issue? Based on advice in this thread I thought centered thoughts and they never felt too weird to me in the occasional scraped off section. I would not be surprised if Wildcats are better at hard snow based on how the 108 tours work, but honestly not sure I need that level of hard snow performance in a 116 ski given how many skis I own. I could imagine a really scraped off steep chute entrance being sketchy but (at least this year's model) is far from terrible back to the lift.

  5. #6255
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    ON3P SKIS Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeJ View Post
    Just adding to the W108 love... I still wonder about the tune on those demo skis. Squirrely is the exact opposite of my experience with them. Like Klauss Iím flabbergasted...
    In regards to the demo fleet at BBI, it was definitely a tune issue. That ski is not to much stick for any of the guys I saw trying it. I wanted on it but the grumbling of others kept me on my own skis.

  6. #6256
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerekPersson View Post
    Havin a time on my Avergreene SG's!

    https://www.instagram.com/p/Btw78l8l...=1vhmqzr4zbf6m

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  7. #6257
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2FUNKY View Post
    In regards to the demo fleet at BBI, it was definitely a tune issue. That ski is not to much stick for any of the guys I saw trying it. I wanted on it but the grumbling of others kept me on my own skis.
    I don't know what to say about this theory- I went out and skied the Wren 108 and Wren 108TI from my demo fleet today, both 184 length. I brought a stone expecting to use it, but didn't.

    I can't speak about whatever ski was being passed around/complained about on Saturday, but the tune on both pairs of 184 Wrens in my demo fleet is fine- just like they were for the four consecutive demo days that they went out on leading up to BBI, where the only feedback I got on the tune was "They're fast.".

    These are honest findings, I don't know what they mean or imply-I'm only sharing information with the intent of being constructive. Nice meeting you guys.

  8. #6258
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    Great meeting you CMA, and thanks again for coming through!

  9. #6259
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    Maybe the grumblers just aren't as front of the boot skiers as they think they are. Personal experience, they like to be driven harder than I like to drive. That's why I don't ski Wren's.
    Training for Alpental

  10. #6260
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    ON3P SKIS Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by CallMeAl View Post
    I don't know what to say about this theory- I went out and skied the Wren 108 and Wren 108TI from my demo fleet today, both 184 length. I brought a stone expecting to use it, but didn't.

    I can't speak about whatever ski was being passed around/complained about on Saturday, but the tune on both pairs of 184 Wrens in my demo fleet is fine- just like they were for the four consecutive demo days that they went out on leading up to BBI, where the only feedback I got on the tune was "They're fast.".

    These are honest findings, I don't know what they mean or imply-I'm only sharing information with the intent of being constructive. Nice meeting you guys.
    It was said due to the fact that guys were saying the skis are too burly for the testers. I was just stating that the testers are guys who love burly skis that need to be driven as I ski with them and we all have just as burly skis in the quiver, if not more so or owned very burly skis. They didnít flex crazy burly to me.
    I admit I wish I skied them to see for myself. The testers are guys I ski with and we all understand the effect a tune has on a ski. I was using them to see which skis I may like and want to ride. The grumblings kept me from skiing them as we like similar skis. That was a mistake.
    Quote Originally Posted by PhiberAwptik View Post
    Maybe the grumblers just aren't as front of the boot skiers as they think they are. Personal experience, they like to be driven harder than I like to drive. That's why I don't ski Wren's.
    Yeah, ok. Ever see LVS ski? Dude drives the front of the boot more than most. All the testers are solid skiers and prefer skis that need to be driven. The issue wasnít with them needing a solid pilot, it was with the hookyness of the ski and the lack of the ski to track well. One common theme I kept hearing was the ski wanted to hook up hill when put on edge. No charging ski should do that with a proper tune.
    Quote Originally Posted by Self Jupiter View Post
    Great meeting you CMA, and thanks again for coming through!
    This in spades. This was not meant as a dig on you CMA by any stretch. Huge props for bringing the fleet with you for us to test. Please continue to do so as our short conversation was enjoyed. You seem like a super solid guy and a solid guy to be representing the ON3P name/product.

  11. #6261
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    Gman is online now Mack Master William Large
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    Quote Originally Posted by terpskier View Post
    I could be wrong but I only saw one very short review that mentioned it was similar to the mindbender 108 but more versatile.

    Itís looking like Iíll be living in Boston next year and not getting many days so Iíll be in the market for the Woodsman 96. Anyone have any time on that ski?


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    The woodsman isnít out for the public yet. Where in Boston are you going to be?

  12. #6262
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2FUNKY View Post
    Yeah, ok. Ever see LVS ski?
    Yeah, I have seen him detune a ski too. [sarcasm]Heís almost as aggressive a skier as he is with that whetstone I mean ďgummiĒ he has. [/sarcasm] I think itís safe to say heís pretty sensitive to a sharp edge.

    Also, the wrens he skied were not in the demo fleet. From what I recall he skied them on Saturday after Al left.

    Obviously, Iím biased on the Wren 108 conversation because I ski the 189 as a DD. My pair is extremely predictable, will run completely flat without wandering, but they are big skis and can be a handful in bumps... which is pretty much all that was left on Saturday at Alpy. When I got them from Aever they were sharp AF. But even in that state I didnít think they were unpredictable, but the tails did have a tendency to hang up occasionally when finishing a turn. I detuned the tails to the contact point but other than that, nothing. Tails release fine now and they skis hold an edge on reasonable hard pack.

    I skied many of the fleet skis both on Tuesday at WWSRA and Friday at Alpy. I experienced no ďtuneĒ issues, but there were some quirks with the PROTOTYPE models (metal wrens in particular) that Al acknowledged because theyíre PROTOTYPES.

  13. #6263
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    You can’t just ski metal wrens and not say more than that

  14. #6264
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    ON3P SKIS Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Gman View Post
    The woodsman isnít out for the public yet. Where in Boston are you going to be?
    Itís not 100% but itís looking like Iíll be doing my PhD at Northeastern.

    I probably wonít be skiing much, especially in my first year, so now Iím reconsidering and thinking a metal wren 96 may be the perfect one ski quiver for the conditions Iíll be facing in the northeast over the next few years.

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    Last edited by terpskier; 02-19-2019 at 08:41 PM.

  15. #6265
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    ON3P SKIS Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by jackattack View Post
    Yeah, I have seen him detune a ski too. [sarcasm]Heís almost as aggressive a skier as he is with that whetstone I mean ďgummiĒ he has. [/sarcasm] I think itís safe to say heís pretty sensitive to a sharp edge.
    Fair enough. I swear I heard you mention some issues and some others, but anywhoo.
    Like I stated, I wish I would have skied them for myself and laid judgement down there.
    Yíall can put down the pitch forks.

  16. #6266
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    Itís all good... no pitchforks needed. I hated my Kartel 108ís and realized quickly itís because Iím such a forward pressing tip driver. Which is why I like the Wrens - theyíre perfect for me. Doesnít mean the K108ís are bad, just not my cup of tea. It would be boring if we all liked the same shit.

  17. #6267
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    ON3P SKIS Discussion

    Looks like ON3P will be holding back from telling us tons of info on how a metal wren skis till April or whenever they drop next years stuff.

    Can anyone give any good detail/speculation on how adding metal, assuming itís done correctly, will affect a Wren? I know edge grip should/will be improved, but how does it effect ON3Ps dampness/playfulness combo, or other things like pow performance and how it skis in moguls? Iíve always wondered about that, especially since Iggy said itíll be about the same stiffness lengthwise (but obviously stiffer torsionally).

  18. #6268
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    ON3P SKIS Discussion

    CMA ó Thanks for bringing the demos out at BBI Iíve been dying to A/B/C the K108 - 186 and 191 with the W108 184. The bonus was skiing the woodsman 116 (187?!). Lastly you worked your ass off adjusting binders throughout the day making sure we all had a good experience!!

    Anyways for reference Iím 205 and 6ft. I have been daily driving the current billygoat 189 this season and have 30+ days on it in every condition/type of terrain.

    ON3P demos came out on day 2 after a full day of Alpy beat down so Iíll admit maybe my legs were not as fresh as the would be on a different day.

    Skied the Woodsman first, however having never skied a Kartel or wren prior I did not have a reference point to compare while skiing. After 1 run of skiing heavy deep PNW pow I got pretty worked. They did not float like my goats and did not ski as loose as the goats however looking at the tail that makes sense; but frankly not sure the goat is a good comparison as these were built as a easier to ski wren yeah?!? They did feel a touch more locked in on hardpack and seemed to reward cuff pressure but the 116 width was weird to me ó why that wide? Doesnít the BG fit that niche? And if your are stopping the Wren 114 due to not selling enough will you sell more woodsmen? Idk. I really wanted to ski the woodsman 108 but it was not available/there. That ski makes more sense to me as the 116 on hardpack felt a littleďplankyĒ at times. But once again only skied for 1 run ó so please donít tar and feather me.

    Needless to say after skiing them I wanted back on my goats and proceeded to ski the goats till about 1pm and loved every minute of it - conditions on Friday were the best of the weekend!

    At 1pm I switched to the 186 K108 - not surprising, but super easy to ski. Not demanding but a lot of fun. Found their speed limit quickly. Moved the binders back 2cm and took a couple more runs. Once back 2cm they felt more comfortable at speed but at 205lbs I wanted more stiffness in the tips.

    Next was the 191 K108. This ski gave me more tip to drive (skiing centered of course). But I noticed the tails would get hung up when in bumps - something about being more center mounted. Just not my jam eh?!?

    Anyways by 3pm I finally got around to skiing the W108. My legs were pretty beat after 2 solid Alpy beat downs. Anyways skied with JackAttack who was on the W114. We went out the cascade traverse for two runs. The upper part was chopped up snow and I could not get the tails to release. They locked in and would not Slarve like the BG or Kartel. When in bumps and transferring from edge to edge if I did not mind my pís and qís they wanted to just continue pulling me across the fall line (the tails did not want to release). I put even more effort into staying forward on the ski (with good cuff pressure) and once again it continue to kick my ass in variable terrain - I can remember one turn in particular where I came off a 5-10 ft air landed then arced Across the fall line; I tried to roll my edges but those fuckers continue to pull my across the fall line. Notably groomers were fun, they railed once on edge.


    Several things I wish I would have done.
    - ski the woodsman more than 1 run. At 1 run I just donít think I have enough data points to comment on so please take my review with a grain of salt!!
    - ski the 108 woodsman. This ski makes more sense to me.
    - ski the wren early in the morning on fresh legs.
    - ski the 98 wren to see what my thoughts were.

    Things I will continue doing. Skiing my 189BG. God damn I LOVE THEM. They are detuned properly and flat MOB! Can put them on edge and just stand on them and they arc GS turns. Stupid fun in trees, 3D snow. Tails break loose when I need them to.

    Edit**
    After reading my review it seems I have a more playful skiing style. I like to mob down then throw the skis sideways and scrub speed. I like to ski a couple moguls then jump the last few and continue on my way. Maybe my skiing style doesnít agree with a wren which is fine and I will gladly continue to ski my goats until the day I die. But I just find it interesting that LVS and I had similar feels after skiing the Wren.

    Interdasting... very interdasting.


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  19. #6269
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkiLyft View Post
    CMA ó Thanks for bringing the demos out at BBI Iíve been dying to A/B/C the K108 - 186 and 191 with the W108 184. The bonus was skiing the woodsman 116 (187?!). Lastly you worked your ass off adjusting binders throughout the day making sure we all had a good experience!!

    Anyways for reference Iím 205 and 6ft. I have been daily driving the current billygoat 189 this season and have 30+ days on it in every condition/type of terrain.

    ON3P demos came out on day 2 after a full day of Alpy beat down so Iíll admit maybe my legs were not as fresh as the would be on a different day.

    Skied the Woodsman first, however having never skied a Kartel or wren prior I did not have a reference point to compare while skiing. After 1 run of skiing heavy deep PNW pow I got pretty worked. They did not float like my goats and did not ski as loose as the goats however looking at the tail that makes sense; but frankly not sure the goat is a good comparison as these were built as a easier to ski wren yeah?!? They did feel a touch more locked in on hardpack and seemed to reward cuff pressure but the 116 width was weird to me ó why that wide? Doesnít the BG fit that niche? And if your are stopping the Wren 114 due to not selling enough will you sell more woodsmen? Idk. I really wanted to ski the woodsman 108 but it was not available/there. That ski makes more sense to me as the 116 on hardpack felt a littleďplankyĒ at times. But once again only skied for 1 run ó so please donít tar and feather me.

    Needless to say after skiing them I wanted back on my goats and proceeded to ski the goats till about 1pm and loved every minute of it - conditions on Friday were the best of the weekend!

    At 1pm I switched to the 186 K108 - not surprising, but super easy to ski. Not demanding but a lot of fun. Found their speed limit quickly. Moved the binders back 2cm and took a couple more runs. Once back 2cm they felt more comfortable at speed but at 205lbs I wanted more stiffness in the tips.

    Next was the 191 K108. This ski gave me more tip to drive (skiing centered of course). But I noticed the tails would get hung up when in bumps - something about being more center mounted. Just not my jam eh?!?

    Anyways by 3pm I finally got around to skiing the W108. My legs were pretty beat after 2 solid Alpy beat downs. Anyways skied with JackAttack who was on the W114. We went out the cascade traverse for two runs. The upper part was chopped up snow and I could not get the tails to release. They locked in and would not Slarve like the BG or Kartel. When in bumps and transferring from edge to edge if I did not mind my pís and qís they wanted to just continue pulling me across the fall line (the tails did not want to release). I put even more effort into staying forward on the ski (with good cuff pressure) and once again it continue to kick my ass in variable terrain - I can remember one turn in particular where I came off a 5-10 ft air landed then arced Across the fall line; I tried to roll my edges but those fuckers continue to pull my across the fall line. Notably groomers were fun, they railed once on edge.


    Several things I wish I would have done.
    - ski the woodsman more than 1 run. At 1 run I just donít think I have enough data points to comment on so please take my review with a grain of salt!!
    - ski the 108 woodsman. This ski makes more sense to me.
    - ski the wren early in the morning on fresh legs.
    - ski the 98 wren to see what my thoughts were.

    Things I will continue doing. Skiing my 189BG. God damn I LOVE THEM. They are detuned properly and flat MOB! Can put them on edge and just stand on them and they arc GS turns. Stupid fun in trees, 3D snow. Tails break loose when I need them to.

    Edit**
    After reading my review it seems I have a more playful skiing style. I like to mob down then throw the skis sideways and scrub speed. I like to ski a couple moguls then jump the last few and continue on my way. Maybe my skiing style doesnít agree with a wren which is fine and I will gladly continue to ski my goats until the day I die. But I just find it interesting that LVS and I had similar feels after skiing the Wren.

    Interdasting... very interdasting.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    That's a pretty nice snapshot of a lot of different skis. I think one thing to note is that, for me at least, it can be hard to switch between so many skis so quickly. They all have very different styles and feels (can't speak for the Woodsman). Obviously that's all you could do in this case. But I think to really feel a ski out you need to give it some adjustment time. I had similar problems my first day on the Wren, though not as severe, day two and after talking to Scott I had them figured out pretty quickly.

    Also, it's funny you mentioned the tails on the center mount. I skied a center mounted ski 10 plus years ago with no problem, but I found myself catching the tails on each other with the K108 on the one day I took them out. Again, I probably would adjust after another day or two.

    Anyway, nice write up, thanks for taking the time.

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  20. #6270
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackattack View Post
    Yeah, I have seen him detune a ski too. [sarcasm]Heís almost as aggressive a skier as he is with that whetstone I mean ďgummiĒ he has. [/sarcasm] I think itís safe to say heís pretty sensitive to a sharp edge.

    Also, the wrens he skied were not in the demo fleet. From what I recall he skied them on Saturday after Al left.

    Obviously, Iím biased on the Wren 108 conversation because I ski the 189 as a DD. My pair is extremely predictable, will run completely flat without wandering, but they are big skis and can be a handful in bumps... which is pretty much all that was left on Saturday at Alpy. When I got them from Aever they were sharp AF. But even in that state I didnít think they were unpredictable, but the tails did have a tendency to hang up occasionally when finishing a turn. I detuned the tails to the contact point but other than that, nothing. Tails release fine now and they skis hold an edge on reasonable hard pack.

    I skied many of the fleet skis both on Tuesday at WWSRA and Friday at Alpy. I experienced no ďtuneĒ issues, but there were some quirks with the PROTOTYPE models (metal wrens in particular) that Al acknowledged because theyíre PROTOTYPES.
    More deets on the metal wren. Added dampening and crud busting ability? I'm looking for a potential successor to my 192 Supernatural 115 and think the metal wren 108 or 114 could be it.

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  21. #6271
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    Quote Originally Posted by DumbIdeasOnly View Post
    Billy goats are awesome. Best wide ski I've ever used in tight trees and day after soft bumps/chop.



    Those complaining about hard snow performance - what's the issue? Based on advice in this thread I thought centered thoughts and they never felt too weird to me in the occasional scraped off section. I would not be surprised if Wildcats are better at hard snow based on how the 108 tours work, but honestly not sure I need that level of hard snow performance in a 116 ski given how many skis I own. I could imagine a really scraped off steep chute entrance being sketchy but (at least this year's model) is far from terrible back to the lift.
    Ha! Yep. I completely agree. My daily driver is a Brahma 88. Transitioning to the BG is nothing and it does fine. After a long day slaying powder it works you a little bit heading back to the bottom but fuck it. Totally worth it and if you still have the legs to drive them they will slay.

    Last Thursday with the BG's on under reported fresh Highlands Bowl and Temerity lift bell to 230 or so when my legs gave out.

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  22. #6272
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglymoney View Post

    Last Thursday with the BG's on under reported fresh Highlands Bowl and Temerity lift bell to 230 or so when my legs gave out.
    Maybe there is some value to the diet goat build then - I'm pretty sure I'm in shitty shape (I would lose an arm wrestling contest to a strong toddler with my recovering arm and got fat again) but I was super happy for 2 full days. Didn't find them work at all.

    one other thing on the hard snow performance - while I think it was honestly pretty good given the ski's performance envelope elsewhere, I would agree they require a consciously different style on hard and soft snow. Soft you can absolutely drive them and they respond well. Hard I did have to remember to ski more centered. It is a bit of an adjustment but I think with experience it will become natural.

  23. #6273
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    I skied a few laps on the 184 metal w108. To me they felt damp and powerful. Definitely less energy transferred back out of the ski than standard layup. That was a good thing for bump smashing and heavy, chopped snow.

    If you like metal in skis, and don't rely on the smooth energy that bamboo produces the metal layup only enhances the wren.
    Common sense. So rare today in America it's almost like having a superpower.

  24. #6274
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    Quote Originally Posted by DumbIdeasOnly View Post
    Maybe there is some value to the diet goat build then - I'm pretty sure I'm in shitty shape (I would lose an arm wrestling contest to a strong toddler with my recovering arm and got fat again) but I was super happy for 2 full days. Didn't find them work at all.

    one other thing on the hard snow performance - while I think it was honestly pretty good given the ski's performance envelope elsewhere, I would agree they require a consciously different style on hard and soft snow. Soft you can absolutely drive them and they respond well. Hard I did have to remember to ski more centered. It is a bit of an adjustment but I think with experience it will become natural.
    All I know is when a 210 lb fat ass from Iowa who should be 190ish can be the slowest person on the bootpack (Euro slow I called myself since only a couple Euros were slower) up Highlands bowl sucking winds (not proud and eating salad only from here out) and one of the faster people crushing the bowl on the downhill it is the skis. Period.

  25. #6275
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    ON3P SKIS Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnar_Shralp406 View Post
    More deets on the metal wren. Added dampening and crud busting ability? I'm looking for a potential successor to my 192 Supernatural 115 and think the metal wren 108 or 114 could be it.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    Disclaimer: I am 189 sized and demoed a 184 metal wren (only one available)

    Added dampness? Yes at the expense of the pop that I generally love from the ON3P build.

    Added crud busting ability? No, I thought it flexed softer than the standard layup wrens.

    I did think the flex was round yet supportive and I felt some added torsional stiffness from the metal. These differences were minute and hard to quantify in pow on soft groom. In general I thought it behaved very similar to my 189 W108. It had a tendency to tip dive a bit more, probably because it was under sized for me. On piste it was great. I think the metal will be worthwhile if most of your skiing is on firm variable and you want to reduce chatter while maintaining good edge contact. Or generally want less tactile feedback from the ski.

    Itís a cool layup because they mill out the core for the metal inert instead of just adding a wall to wall sheet of TI or laminating it on top like the Blizzard Rustler or a lot of the K2 skis Iíve been seeing.

    Personally, I would want a 187 Metal Woodsman 96 or 108 for low tide playful skiing, or the days I teach a lesson or skiing with family. The shorter sidecut/tail shape did not do it for me in pow like the RES skis or straighter Wrens.
    Last edited by jackattack; 02-20-2019 at 01:28 PM.

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