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  1. #201
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    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGortex View Post
    The second I drove the tip, pivot.
    I'm really starting to notice this. You feel it on a sidehill traverse in powder -> you can pivot the skis and pop the tails downhill really easy. So you take that into actual skiing and they really slarve easy, which takes some adjustment.

    And you get the surf of a reverse camber, but the pop and energy of a cambered ski.

    I've had more good days on them recently. You'd be envious. Some moments really stick in my mind, and I think it was the ski that made it.

    Probably the closest feeling ski I've been on is the Praxis Protest, but that skis much fatter because it is.
    Life is not lift served.

  2. #202
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    Dec 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrenalated View Post
    I've posted this before, but:
    -in soft snow you can pretty much ski them wherever the fuck you want, but slightly forward of center is definitely pretty natural
    -on hard snow, they require tip pressure. Not a lot - that same slightly forward of center will do - but center or back will not work, period. They can tolerate a more aggressive forward stance if you are so inclined, however.
    Thus pretty much sums up my experiences with this past Winter's model as well.

    I have however had good results experimenting with detuning, a little bit at a time, until determing my sweet spot.

    Cheers,
    Thom
    Last edited by galibier_numero_un; 08-08-2016 at 08:33 AM.
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  3. #203
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    Aug 2015
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    Tahoe
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    How does the Cease & Desist compare to the billy goat? Its just bigger and badder?

  4. #204
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    May 2011
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    ^^ Check out the rocker profile for one. The C&D looks absurd... would love to try them cat skiing sometime.

    Quote Originally Posted by neck beard View Post
    I'm really starting to notice this. You feel it on a sidehill traverse in powder -> you can pivot the skis and pop the tails downhill really easy. So you take that into actual skiing and they really slarve easy, which takes some adjustment.
    And of course this is why they're super fun. You can be going mach-shnell then open up a big slarvy turn at a moment's notice (or throw them sideways to scrub speed) without worrying about them hooking up on you.
    Last edited by TahoeJ; 08-08-2016 at 10:32 AM.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeJ View Post
    ^^ Check out the rocker profile for one. The C&D looks absurd... would love to try them cat skiing sometime.



    And of course this is why they're super fun. You can be going mach-shnell then open up a big slarvy turn at a moment's notice (or throw them sideways to scrub speed) without worrying about them hooking up on you.
    Yupp. Thats exactly what makes the BG so fun. Its such a powerful slarve too. And they are on of the best tree skis ever, along with the steeple 112... I can imagine that your baby goats are jaw-dropping good in trees.

    I (narrowly) found a pair of 2016 193 C&Ds for a pretty sweet deal, and I think im going to scoop them up.. the topsheets on the 2016s are probably one of my favorite ever, but I also have been dying to get a Cease n Desist ever since I tried the BG and Steeple 112s. I think theyll be a good choice for Baker and British Columbia this season.

  6. #206
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by aevergreene View Post
    I meant in super choppy resort conditions. Like it snowed 30 inches over night and its all tracked out. I think its the RES in the tip that lets me land into this crud and then pop/turn up out of it without hooking and faceplanting.

    If youre talking about wheelies with the katana, I think it was the full rocker, because I find it really easy to get out of the backseat on the Billy Goat if I start to wander. Kind of like the bibby pro.. The katana will bump you back into place a bit better than the OG cochise or a Hoji, but I still could feel some (slight?) wheelie action.

    The katana was better in this respect then the hoji (hoji is better in other areas tho), probably because the metal in the tail? I never actually backslapped katanas or hojis, but have felt the wheelie sensation a fair amount... But this was really only on landings or when skiing extremely fast on steep firm and transitioning to flatter spots.

    I actually like the katana better than the Billy Goat or Vicik though. Its more versatile and can literally ski anything. What I could be recalling here could be from me being 6'3" 200 lbs on the 184 katana... It was a great daily driver for trees, but a little short in the tail with the mounting point, for if I got backseat..I also had the 191 metal katanas, but only put 4 days on them so not to sure if they had the same wheelie effect. I was so stupid to sell the 191 katana, it was so good. At the time, I thought newer skis would be just as versatile with new technology. Nope, huge FAIL on my part. I need to try a 191 wren 113 custom, before I give up search for a katana replacement.
    Ahh yeah, big dude on a 184 makes sense now. Shoulda been on the 191 (measures 191). I'm on the 190 (measures 187.5) at 5'10 and 175lbs and it feels perfect. I get the wheelie on firm snow. Thats def the reverse camber. I don't get that in soft snow though - not as bad as the BG anyway. You want to land pretty forward on firm snow though.

  7. #207
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    328
    *** GearSwap Spam Warning ***

    Aevergreene, I still have a twice drilled pair of 190 Katanas on GearSwap. $100 plus shipping from UT. At 5'9" and 150 lbs, the 183/184 Katana is a better fit for me.

    Carry on.

    *** End GearSwap Spam ***

  8. #208
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    Aug 2015
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    Dont the 190 katanas measure extremely short?

    I really want a 198cm Katana... Where the heck did those all end up? I dont think theyd be much harder to ski than a 196 Moment Governor. The 191 katana was a breeze in anything but moguls, but then unbelievably stable in the worst conditions.

    I think Ill take my luck with a custom 191cm Wren 113. Hopefully that will be the ticket.

    Why cant some other company pick up the slack where volkl left off. I dont think it even needs metal, just weight and rigidity. Is the devastator like the katana, or not quite an exact comparison? What about moments new meridian or whatever? IF on3p designed a ski, aimed at old katana fans, would it come out just like a wren 112? Does on3p believe in full rocker? If they did make this ski, Id buy a pair every season and hoard them.

    We should make a list for a custom katana-like ski, and submit it to any ski company that will accept it.. theres got to be 20 people on here that want a new katana. Best Ski Ever.

    Second, fourth, and fifth best all go to on3p IMO though, 2nd to billy Goat, 4th to Vicik, 5th to steeple, Lets get back to On3p
    Last edited by aevergreene; 08-12-2016 at 01:13 PM.

  9. #209
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    Apr 2009
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    2,327
    Quote Originally Posted by aevergreene View Post
    Dont the 190 katanas measure extremely short?

    I really want a 198cm Katana... Where the heck did those all end up? I dont think theyd be much harder to ski than a 196 Moment Governor. The 191 katana was a breeze in anything but moguls, but then unbelievably stable in the worst conditions.

    I think Ill take my luck with a custom 191cm Wren 113. Hopefully that will be the ticket.

    Why cant some other company pick up the slack where volkl left off. I dont think it even needs metal, just weight and rigidity. Is the devastator like the katana, or not quite an exact comparison? What about moments new meridian or whatever? IF on3p designed a ski, aimed at old katana fans, would it come out just like a wren 112? Does on3p believe in full rocker? If they did make this ski, Id buy a pair every season and hoard them.

    We should make a list for a custom katana-like ski, and submit it to any ski company that will accept it.. theres got to be 20 people on here that want a new katana. Best Ski Ever.

    Second, third, fourth, and fifth best all go to on3p IMO though, Billy Goat, Vicik, Steeple, Tychoon. Lets get back to On3p
    I think the new 191 113 Wren will be the ticket... I have the very first gen 191 Wren that was 112 underfoot as well as the 191 Katana and 194 Devastator... I love the Devastator, but is def diff than the Wren and Katana... I will be floored if you are not happy with the new Wren... I have said it to nauseam, but I have yet to ski a ski that charges like the Wren and handles chop the way it does, but not demanding...

  10. #210
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    May 2011
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    The Wren 112 actually reminds me a lot of the Katana... except I like it more in powder.

  11. #211
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    328
    I've written a bunch about the metal Katana vs Devastator (vs Sickle) comparisons in other threads, but to sum it up, the main metal Katana vs Devastator difference is the mount point. Katana is -11 to -14 cm from true center depending on length, and the Devastator is more like -5 cm from true center regardless of length. Not surprisingly then:
    - the Devastator is pretty good skiing switch and in the park, the Katana is terrible here
    - the Dev feels less stable charging deep chop, mostly because there is less ski to drive in front of the toe
    - the Dev is much livelier carving 2D snow

    When I moved from AltaBird to PC, I switched from the Katana to Sickle/Devastator as the the daily driver and have felt the move totally appropriate for the typical day, terrain, grooming, and snowfall at the respective ski areas.

    L

  12. #212
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    Sep 2010
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    The Devestator also has a lot more reverse camber and is more washy.

  13. #213
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    How does the Cease and Desist compare to the Praxis Protest?
    Last edited by aevergreene; 08-11-2016 at 09:09 PM.

  14. #214
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    Jan 2008
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    Idaho
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    407
    How similar is the kartel 116 to the Bibby? Is it more jib oriented? Thanks.

  15. #215
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    Dec 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by aevergreene View Post
    How does the Cease and Desist compare to the Praxis Protest?
    Only have about two runs on the C&D, so take with a HUGE grain of salt. Also, I'm comparing 193 C&D to 187 Protest.

    Protest is more playful and pivoty. C&D wants to be driven harder and arc bigger turns. C&D floats better. Protest likes a more centered stance than C&D, which wants you to be more forward. No time on hard snow on either ski. Overall C&D has more rage and Protest has more play.

  16. #216
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    Aug 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrenalated View Post
    Only have about two runs on the C&D, so take with a HUGE grain of salt. Also, I'm comparing 193 C&D to 187 Protest.

    Protest is more playful and pivoty. C&D wants to be driven harder and arc bigger turns. C&D floats better. Protest likes a more centered stance than C&D, which wants you to be more forward. No time on hard snow on either ski. Overall C&D has more rage and Protest has more play.
    Awesome. Thanks for the info, I picked up some 193 C&Ds..

    I think I'm going to ski my 191 Billy Goats in more all mountain conditions this year, now that I am moving to Washington and don't have Jeffrey 114s anymore. The BGs are surprisingly nimble in trees/bumps with just the slightest amount of fresh snow, they only really lack performance on groomers IMO.

    My inbounds quiver is done. Vicik, BG and C&D for charging and slarving different conditions, and shreditor 112(semi-damp noodle) for learning new tricks anywhere on the hill.

  17. #217
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    Sep 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by aevergreene View Post
    My inbounds quiver is done. Vicik, BG and C&D for charging and slarving different conditions, and shreditor 112(semi-damp noodle) for learning new tricks anywhere on the hill.
    That's all ya need. Sweet lineup dude

  18. #218
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    Aug 2015
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    I didnt need anymore than the billy goat, shreditor, and vicik honestely, but I have been dying to ski the C&D since I got on the billy goat.. Its hard to find a ton of information on the 2015 or 2016 CD, but it looks like newer versions are slightly thinned out and softer/lighter with the tour layup, compared to 2014 and older?

    I just got mine, and they arent that stiff.. I have a hard time judging flex on a long, heavily rockered skis, they all feel soft to me. The 100cm or less of flat underfoot is super stiff, but the rockered portion of the skis tip and tail are no stiffer, nor are they heavier than Billy Goats. The C&Ds dont feel nearly as stiff as some flat tailed fatties like Dynastar Cham 117s, Cham 127s, or even Line Sick Day 125s. Not saying the sick days or cham117s are burlier, but they're a lot stiffer through the flat tails.

    What makes the C&D so "demanding", as ive read some people saying that in some threads? I thought the 191 BG would be too burly before trying, but after skiing it I found it to be slightly soft..and I'm no Ian Mac. These seem easier to ski in the right conditions, but I may be wrong.

    Im really stoked on these, and they seem to be exactly what im looking for; a fatter, more rockered billy goat that wants a little more snow, and a little more speed. The rocker profile is ridiculous! The topsheet graphics are sweet, but the rocker profiles on these suckers are badass. Im glad I got a pair before they made it more accessible for 2017.

  19. #219
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
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    idaho panhandle!
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    My buddy's fiancé wants to get him a surprise pair of skis with custom graphics, he knows the designer for ON3P, as a marriage gift. He has I believe a pair of Down skis Showdown115. He got in the group buy last year. He rarely visits Tgr. He is 6' about 195 and can ski.

    Wondering what would complement his Showdown best. He wants a better pow ski as the pow performance of the Showdown is underwhelming to him.

    I was thinking BG but it looks like the 191@118 under foot is gone replaced with the 189@116 underfoot.

  20. #220
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    Apr 2009
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    I have the 191 Billy 118 underfoot and love it's POW perfromance... I know others will still point you to the 189 Billy as the length came from the turned up tail... However, this year I ordered the 191 116 Kartel as I had two buddies demo the 116 and loved it and two mags who skied it reported on this thread they loved it...

    Just throwing out another option...

  21. #221
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    Aug 2015
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    I dont quite understand why the Kartel series goes to 191, while the Billy Goat does not. Id rather see a 189 kartel, and 191 BG..

  22. #222
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    Dec 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by aevergreene View Post
    I dont quite understand why the Kartel series goes to 191, while the Billy Goat does not. Id rather see a 189 kartel, and 191 BG..
    Because the Kartel has more splay in the tips and tails making it run shorter. As someone who has owned the BG in 191, and 186. The 86 is by far more enjoyable, and loses nothing to the 91.

    Scott pushed me towards the 86 Kartel 116 over the 191, and I enjoy that too.
    Training for Alpental

  23. #223
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    Apr 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by aevergreene View Post
    I dont quite understand why the Kartel series goes to 191, while the Billy Goat does not. Id rather see a 189 kartel, and 191 BG..
    That and why it went to 116 underfoot... I know a lot had to do with sales numbers and my guess with the 191 Kartel is the rocker is def more pronounced in the tail compared to the Billy... As I have said before no way will I part with my 191 Billy 118 underfoot... This ski and my 196 Renegades are POW killers...

  24. #224
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    Dec 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2FUNKY View Post
    My buddy's fiancé wants to get him a surprise pair of skis with custom graphics, he knows the designer for ON3P, as a marriage gift. He has I believe a pair of Down skis Showdown115. He got in the group buy last year. He rarely visits Tgr. He is 6' about 195 and can ski.

    Wondering what would complement his Showdown best. He wants a better pow ski as the pow performance of the Showdown is underwhelming to him.

    I was thinking BG but it looks like the 191@118 under foot is gone replaced with the 189@116 underfoot.
    Pick up a ruler....look at 2 cm...it's trivial.
    Training for Alpental

  25. #225
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    Apr 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhiberAwptik View Post
    Because the Kartel has more splay in the tips and tails making it run shorter. As someone who has owned the BG in 191, and 186. The 86 is by far more enjoyable, and loses nothing to the 91.

    Scott pushed me towards the 86 Kartel 116 over the 191, and I enjoy that too.

    PA, no doubt the 186 is a killer ski... I am a freak size wise when it comes to skiing as I am 6'4"ish and 205lbs nekid so anytime I am on a big mountain ski demoing it is usually in a 186 and feels and just skis short for me... And you can tell the 190s something is not a huge seller for any ski manufacturer as I picked up several skis in the 19x over the past couple of years greatly discounted while the 17x and 18x were all sold out... Hell, my local shop with not carry anything in 19x unless specially ordered...

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