ON3P SKIS Discussion

[Adrgha]

Sweet looking "Billygoat" Kartels, kid!

[blackalps]

To echo Betelgeuse a bit I guess, that’s sort of my question. If you know from the factory that all of the skis you’re sending out need to be tuned duller than the vast majority of all other skis being sold today, what’s the reasoning behind making them that way? Why not alter the ski construction so that they can be tuned normally? Genuine question.

[adrenalated]

To echo Betelgeuse a bit I guess, that’s sort of my question. If you know from the factory that all of the skis you’re sending out need to be tuned duller than the vast majority of all other skis being sold today, what’s the reasoning behind making them that way? Why not alter the ski construction so that they can be tuned normally? Genuine question.

I don't believe that they do. I detune EVERY ski substantially more than any shop will detune. I don't think ON3P needs to be tuned duller. I think that every other ski comes too fucking sharp and nearly every tech leaves the skis too fucking sharp.

IF there is actually something to Iggy's theory that the edge width plays into it - the simple answer is that they use thicker edges because they are more durable and this would be an unfortunate side effect. I'm not convinced of this though.

JFC. It's not like ON3Ps are more sensitive to tune than other skis. It's more that most other companies suck at factory tunes and most shops suck at tuning modern skis.

[klauss]

I think there are some loud voices in minority influencing this change, no? The change has not bothered the majority, so they are doing it. I’ve ridden a bunch of their skies and have never tuned or detuned one of them. I personally don’t support all this aggressive de-tuning. It’s detrimental to society at large.

I’ve never noticed an off feeling but will note that the earlier versions of the tour layup was not my cup of tea in the lightish ski category

[Sledzski]

One other design element we are exploring is the height of the edge off the snow. Compared to the edges on other skis, at the same 1 degree bevel, the end of the edge off the snow with a 2.5mm wide edge is between approximately 15-45% higher off the snow (when flat, compared to edges in the 1.7mm to 2.2mm wide range). That design aspect is something we're actively discussing (in terms of detune), but what we do know is that our skis like to be heavily detuned in their base state - and that that detune level is generally a lot more than most techs & skiers are used to.

If you ever need additional help with the skis, don't hesitate to reach out.

Iggy - Not to rathole this but I am super curious and I apologize in advance for my ignorance(aka my jonginess). How does that extra height affect the on the snow feel? Is it like having a higher base bevel (say 1.25 degree)?


Would it potentially make sense to try a 0.75 base and a 1 side to provide a more familiar edging experience? Or am I a monkey fkn a football here.


In the meantime I will continue to smile ear to ear every time I click into my detuned wrens.




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[Bruce Springskiin]

Hum, I have always felt like the first 5 or so days on new ON3P skis they were a handful. And had assumed that break in was me learning the ski an how much input they required. To me that was satisfying because after those first few days I felt I had raised my ability to get more out of the ski. So may a change in perspective, I’ll try a little more detune at home first this time around


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[Skeeze]

I found that I needed to detune my 17/18 Wren 108s pretty significantly beyond the factory tune, but some people don’t feel that way, so I understand why ON3P ships them the way they are.

My 17/18 Billy Goats, on the other hand, were absolutely perfect out of the wrapper and I haven’t touched the detune.


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[ASmileyFace]

Welp. Just bit the bullet and got myself a birthday gift of a pair of 184 BGs.

Now I just need to decide what clamps to put on these puppies when they show up. So stoked!

[CascadeLuke]

Welp. Just bit the bullet and got myself a birthday gift of a pair of 184 BGs.

Now I just need to decide what clamps to put on these puppies when they show up. So stoked!

You’ll be happy you did. HB

[detrusor]

I did nothing to my SG’s and they were super duper awesome confidence inspiring. However, I only ski them when the snow is derp and soft so I suppose the tune doesn’t matter nearly as much


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[californiagrown]

Kartel 116s and Billy Goats seem to be about the same ski. Is the only really noticeable difference that the BG is a little stiffer so can cut through PNW wet chop a little better? I dont spin off stuff or ski switch, so i know that everyone will tell me to buy a BG, but i still want a nice poppy ski. What characteristics of the ski would make if better suited to me?

[TahoeJ]

I don't believe that they do. I detune EVERY ski substantially more than any shop will detune. I don't think ON3P needs to be tuned duller. I think that every other ski comes too fucking sharp and nearly every tech leaves the skis too fucking sharp.

Same. Granted, we seem to have very similar tastes in skis (and like driving the tips) so maybe that's part of it.

[Norseman]

Kartel 116s and Billy Goats seem to be about the same ski. Is the only really noticeable difference that the BG is a little stiffer so can cut through PNW wet chop a little better? I dont spin off stuff or ski switch, so i know that everyone will tell me to buy a BG, but i still want a nice poppy ski. What characteristics of the ski would make if better suited to me?

Untrue.

BG has a special shape in the front half of the ski (RES)... they are fully reverse sidecut in front of the boot. They are also pintailed. Directional. Still poppy and playful, youbetcha.

K116 is a pow jib twin with more centered mount point.

Get the BGs if you're not spinning. They own the PNW pow.

[adrenalated]

I did a quick CAD sketch this morning to see how the thickness of the edge would impact the lateral distance one's hips need to move in order to move the ski from base flat to edge flat.
Assumptions: 98mm wide ski, 1 degree edge bevel, 30mm stack from ski base to bottom of foot, 34" inseam.
The lateral distance you need to move in order to put the ski on edge is 0.000004 inches larger on a 2.5mm edge than a 1.7mm edge.
This is not a thing. Edge size is irrelevant.
(Edit: this is obviously not a complete or particularly accurate representation of the biomechanics involved, just enough of an analysis of the geometry to show that the edge width is irrelevant.)

So here's what's REALLY going on, in my opinion.

99.9% of all skis sold come pretty sharp, with minimal detune. Some people like that. I personally think that most skis ski like shit out of the wrapper. If you don't know better, then you don't notice.
99.9% of all shops/techs tune skis similarly to a factory tune, aka, pretty sharp, with minimal detune. In my opinion, they ski like shit like that. But if you're used to your skis being that way, they are the same, and you don't notice.

ON3P appears to agree with me that skis in general, and progressive freeride skis in particular, should be detuned rather aggressively. So they do it at the factory. Then when you go get the skis tuned by a shop, they tune them sharper than ON3P does. And the ski feels like shit. Just like any other ski would, if you skied it with a heavy detune, then had it tuned super sharp.

There's nothing inherent in the design of ON3P skis that requires a more aggressive detune. They spend extra time and labor hours to do detune, as a service, because they think it is better. I imagine they would save a lot of time/money and headaches explaining this to people if they just didn't bother, and sent out really sharp skis just like everyone else does.

[kid-kapow]

Kartel 116s and Billy Goats seem to be about the same ski.

my photo above might be a bit misleading - the two are really quite different imo, where some of the differences is kinda easy to spot if you look closely.

BG's RES up front makes the front half very different, as is the sidecut in the rear (no asym). And as stated before, BGs are more traditional mount whereas K116s are more centered. BGs are magical at cutting through variable, where i expect k116s will not be as frictionless - but still be no slouch. Stock k116s are also a bit softer underfoot and in the tail of the ski, adding more directional umph to BGs with increased butterability for k116s.

The idea with my stiffer k116s was to bridge the gap a bit and gain harder snow performance. Time will tell if i succeeded.

That being said, the front rockers are surprisingly similar, which was a welcome surprise, so i think k116s will suit me and my carvy style better than slarvyness incorporated aka BGs. Both are awesome skis, just for slightly different riding styles imo.

Adranelated: you are making too much sense. ( - your description seems pretty bang on to me, though i've approached it like mr Bruce thus far and probably will in the future as well - wear em in!)

[Sledzski]

I did a quick CAD sketch this morning to see how the thickness of the edge would impact the lateral distance one's hips need to move in order to move the ski from base flat to edge flat.
Assumptions: 98mm wide ski, 1 degree edge bevel, 30mm stack from ski base to bottom of foot, 34" inseam.
The lateral distance you need to move in order to put the ski on edge is 0.000004 inches larger on a 2.5mm edge than a 1.7mm edge.
This is not a thing. Edge size is irrelevant.
(Edit: this is obviously not a complete or particularly accurate representation of the biomechanics involved, just enough of an analysis of the geometry to show that the edge width is irrelevant

Thanks Adrenalated. Good insight.

Personally, I clicked quickly with my Wrens with a little more detune and a few days on snow. I was just curious about Iggys comment and the impact it might have.

Thanks for the G2.


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[Doremite]

I think we need a separate do you detune thread. This has come up endlessly in this thread. I ski a lot of ec hardpack which detunes nicely. Sucks for a short bit then problem solved.

[galibier_numero_un]

I did a quick CAD sketch this morning to see how the thickness of the edge would impact the lateral distance one's hips need to move in order to move the ski from base flat to edge flat.
Assumptions: 98mm wide ski, 1 degree edge bevel, 30mm stack from ski base to bottom of foot, 34" inseam.
The lateral distance you need to move in order to put the ski on edge is 0.000004 inches larger on a 2.5mm edge than a 1.7mm edge.
This is not a thing. Edge size is irrelevant.
(Edit: this is obviously not a complete or particularly accurate representation of the biomechanics involved, just enough of an analysis of the geometry to show that the edge width is irrelevant.)

So here's what's REALLY going on, in my opinion.

99.9% of all skis sold come pretty sharp, with minimal detune. Some people like that. I personally think that most skis ski like shit out of the wrapper. If you don't know better, then you don't notice.
99.9% of all shops/techs tune skis similarly to a factory tune, aka, pretty sharp, with minimal detune. In my opinion, they ski like shit like that. But if you're used to your skis being that way, they are the same, and you don't notice.

ON3P appears to agree with me that skis in general, and progressive freeride skis in particular, should be detuned rather aggressively. So they do it at the factory. Then when you go get the skis tuned by a shop, they tune them sharper than ON3P does. And the ski feels like shit. Just like any other ski would, if you skied it with a heavy detune, then had it tuned super sharp.

There's nothing inherent in the design of ON3P skis that requires a more aggressive detune. They spend extra time and labor hours to do detune, as a service, because they think it is better. I imagine they would save a lot of time/money and headaches explaining this to people if they just didn't bother, and sent out really sharp skis just like everyone else does.

That's a great analysis!

I'm only about 4-5 years into new school skis (as in any rocker), but I've found detuning that far and that much (as in rounded edges to the sidecut) while totally counterintuitive, is mandatory. Thinking about it, one would expect that a rockered ski is quasi-detuned by virtue of the rocker, but this has not been my experience (when yer thinkin' yer stinkin').

Now, my experience is limited to several samples of skis from ON3P, Praxis, Down & Atomic, but the point is to not overlook the fairly dramatic results you can achieve.

... Thom

[BC.]

Look what came today....

[sk8rat6587]

I also had a nice package dropped off today. TGR magic care of @optics.



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[detrusor]

Wife’s skis shipped....don’t tell


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[the_flying_v]

Because everyone got new skis today:



Pulled a non-TGR move and went with 179. Got my ass kicked on 184s in certain terrain and certain snow. As a smaller dude spending a lot of time in West Basin, I’m guessing these will be the ticket.

Thanks a ton Scott and the gang.

[jackattack]

nice

[detuned]

these beauties showed up a few days ago, nothing special just stock 191 K108's - really looking forward to getting a lot of time on these - thank you very much ON3P crew!!!

i emailed ON3P to ask a question about mount point. i was mildly surprised to see how far the recommended mount point is from TC...-5cm, i measured my Wrens (184) and found around -10cm.

i am a directional skier and heard in the blister podcast from earlier this year about the progressive mount point and how directional skiers will have to adjust/take some time to get used to the mount point.

ON3P got back to me and mentioned they only recommend mounting a maximum of -2cm aft (back) of the recommended mount point and that was where i was thinking of mounting so hey, i think on the right level!

i am 99% sure i'm gonna do -2cm from recommended but just wanted to get some feedback from you guys about your experience on these skis with other than recommended mount point areas

[steveski]

Because everyone got new skis today:



Pulled a non-TGR move and went with 179. Got my ass kicked on 184s in certain terrain and certain snow. As a smaller dude spending a lot of time in West Basin, I’m guessing these will be the ticket.

Thanks a ton Scott and the gang.

Can it be a thing to preemptively call dibs if you ever decide to sell...