Snow bikes

[whipski]

worst thing since jetskis

http://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/ac...=598&accfm=rep

Want to bet these double fatalities within 5 years?

[Name Redacted]

I think they look pretty fun. Much easier to get unstuck too.

RIP to the victims.

[hatchgreenchile]

Snowbikes aren't the problem...

[adrenalated]

Agreed. Snowbikes aren't the problem. They're no more or less likely to trigger an avalanche than any other form of winter travel.

BCA just had a good editorial about this.
http://backcountryaccess.com/snowbik...anche-terrain/
It's written by a guy that sells snowbikes. I haven't ridden one, but he makes the point that unlike snowmobiles, which take years to learn to ride well enough to easily access avalanche terrain, any decent motorcycle guy can buy a snowbike kit and get into dangerous terrain pretty much the first day out. Much like fat skis have made steeper slopes more accessible to more people because it's easier to ski powder, snowbikes make steep slopes more accessible to more motorized users.

I think the avalanche education community has done a great job reaching out to human powered users, and of skiers and snowboarders that regularly travel in the backcountry, it seems that the majority are educated at least to AIARE L1 and are carrying appropriate rescue gear. When I go out to popular sled zones like Vail Pass, I'd say the percentage of motorized users that are carrying gear is more like 50%. I'd suspect that the majority of them do not have L1 or equivalent. Part of that is the culture (which seems to be improving), part of that is the shops and dealers (also seems to be improving), and part of that is a major lack of availability of L1 or L2 avalanche courses that are geared towards motorized users. Yes there are some, but they're still quite rare compared to L1 and L2 courses for skiers and snowboarders.

[summit]

I think there is a greater cost in equipment and liability insurance to run a L1 or L2 on sleds and that is BEFORE you get into the total nightmare of FS permitting. There are also far fewer instructors who are good enough brappers to teach a motorized course.

[adrenalated]

Agreed on all counts. I see no reason that a motorized L1/L2 needs to be the same price as a non-motorized class though. A motorized user is already probably spending 5X as much money on their equipment, it doesn't seem unreasonable that they would spend more on a class as well.

USFS permitting is definitely a challenge but the classes do exist, so there's proof that it can be done.

And definitely not that many good brappers that are instructors, but that is changing I think. I've been seeing more and more guides, forecasters, etc. using sleds.

[GPP33]

Agreed. Snowbikes aren't the problem. They're no more or less likely to trigger an avalanche than any other form of winter travel.

BCA just had a good editorial about this.
http://backcountryaccess.com/snowbik...anche-terrain/
It's written by a guy that sells snowbikes. I haven't ridden one, but he makes the point that unlike snowmobiles, which take years to learn to ride well enough to easily access avalanche terrain, any decent motorcycle guy can buy a snowbike kit and get into dangerous terrain pretty much the first day out. Much like fat skis have made steeper slopes more accessible to more people because it's easier to ski powder, snowbikes make steep slopes more accessible to more motorized users.

I think the avalanche education community has done a great job reaching out to human powered users, and of skiers and snowboarders that regularly travel in the backcountry, it seems that the majority are educated at least to AIARE L1 and are carrying appropriate rescue gear. When I go out to popular sled zones like Vail Pass, I'd say the percentage of motorized users that are carrying gear is more like 50%. I'd suspect that the majority of them do not have L1 or equivalent. Part of that is the culture (which seems to be improving), part of that is the shops and dealers (also seems to be improving), and part of that is a major lack of availability of L1 or L2 avalanche courses that are geared towards motorized users. Yes there are some, but they're still quite rare compared to L1 and L2 courses for skiers and snowboarders.

I agree with everything you had to say except for being more or less likely to kick off a slide. More weight = a bigger trigger = more likely to kick off a slide. Simple physics. They look like fun though, too bad people like the OP will use this as ammo to further their anti OHV agenda.

[summit]

More weight = a bigger trigger = more likely to kick off a slide. Simple physics.

Not necessarily. The physics isn't quite that simple.

[GPP33]

Not necessarily. The physics isn't quite that simple.

Do elaborate.......

[adrenalated]

I actually have not seen any research on trigger size/mass, but there probably is some. Anyone got anything? My suspicion is that where exactly you hit a slope is far more important than mass. But equal trigger points would be dependent on mass. But that is conjecture.

[GPP33]

I actually have not seen any research on trigger size/mass, but there probably is some. Anyone got anything? My suspicion is that where exactly you hit a slope is far more important than mass. But equal trigger points would be dependent on mass. But that is conjecture.

Bingo. You'll have to hit the exact right spot with a feather but the sweet spot with an avy bomb is much bigger.

[jono]

A slightly less oversimplified version of the physics would include surface area on the snow, since deeper trigger points aren't as likely to be reached when the weight is spread out. (No experience with snowbikes but a local avy meeting/discussion included three or four users who pointed out that post holing after stepping off one indicates a similarity to skis. Roughly.)

In this case, that is one huge crown. Hard to imagine conditions would've been kinder to a skier except through dumb luck--or not being there.

[capulin overdrive]

Yeah the downforce may not be too much deferent than skis. Obviously heavier, but bigger footprint.

Gonna boil down to distance traveled. More distance = more risk.


Only thing I don't like about them, is the noise of the single 4 stroke motor. They are loud, even with stock exhaust.


Death numbers in the future? Who knows, far as I know this is only the 2nd snowbike death since they've become a thing.

May get a handful more dirt bikers into the sport, but really doubt the winter numbers will increase much, and the sled side will lose riders to the bikes.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Yeah the downforce may not be too much deferent than skis. Obviously heavier, but bigger footprint.

Gonna boil down to distance traveled. More distance = more risk.


Only thing I don't like about them, is the noise of the single 4 stroke motor. They are loud, even with stock exhaust.


Death numbers in the future? Who knows, far as I know this is only the 2nd snowbike death since they've become a thing.

May get a handful more dirt bikers into the sport, but really doubt the winter numbers will increase much, and the sled side will lose riders to the bikes.

Have you seen snowbike tracks in the backcountry? They penetrate even deeper than snow mobiles. The energy put into the snowpack from snowbikes and snowmobiles is higher than skier's unless a skier falls hard. I agree that if you hit the right spot it doesn't matter, but that spot is a whole lot bigger and deeper than a skier's.

[Name Redacted]

Have you seen snowbike tracks in the backcountry? They penetrate even deeper than snow mobiles. The energy put into the snowpack from snowbikes and snowmobiles is higher than skier's unless a skier falls hard. I agree that if you hit the right spot it doesn't matter, but that spot is a whole lot bigger and deeper than a skier's.

Dear captain obvious. Yes, skis weigh less than a snowbike, and a snowmobile weighs even more. But if used responsibly, they can all be safe. Many of these guys are just rallying them around far away from avy terrain and having a good ol' time doing it. To shit on a new user group because of a couple of avalanches is stupid.

[capulin overdrive]

Making tracks would be more accurate.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Dear captain obvious. Yes, skis weigh less than a snowbike, and a snowmobile weighs even more. But if used responsibly, they can all be safe. Many of these guys are just rallying them around far away from avy terrain and having a good ol' time doing it. To shit on a new user group because of a couple of avalanches is stupid.

Hey Captain Obvious, I'm not against snowbikes or snowmobiles, I was just pointing out that the potential to trigger an avalanche is higher with snowbike or snowmobile vs. a skier on a given slope. If the potential is there maybe neither should be there.

[2FUNKY]

Yeah the downforce may not be too much deferent than skis. Obviously heavier, but bigger footprint.

Gonna boil down to distance traveled. More distance = more risk.


Only thing I don't like about them, is the noise of the single 4 stroke motor. They are loud, even with stock exhaust.


Death numbers in the future? Who knows, far as I know this is only the 2nd snowbike death since they've become a thing.

May get a handful more dirt bikers into the sport, but really doubt the winter numbers will increase much, and the sled side will lose riders to the bikes.

Snow bikes have grown in popularity big time around here. Partly due to one of the manufactures are here. Just a couple years ago I would only see a few in the backs of trucks, now, damn near every third truck has them. They're also fun as fuck! I really wish more snow motor guys would get educated on backcountry travel and safety though. It's amazing how many don't dig pits or wear avy gear.

[jono]

The one element that seems likely to show a statistical difference compared with snowmobiles is that bikes side hill so much easier, which may attract riders to slopes snowmobiles would've gone around, and it sounds like it's easy to trench one. Again, no experience here, but that combination seems like it lets riders with less experience into a spot where they're basically cutting the slope.

Obviously educating new riders is important. In this area it sounds like the forest service guys running the avy forecast/education program are spending as much time with motorized as skiers, or maybe more. Like 2Funky said, could be different here. It's encouraging to see motorized guys showing up, though, and I know a number who carry gear and have at least some education on slides.

[capulin overdrive]

Yup, they for sure side hill easier than a sled.

Trench should be way less, for one they don't have the power, and two it's easier to feel the track spinning and turn out or down. Granted track length would/could come into play. I run a long track, and so far have never been stuck.

[GPP33]

Yup, they for sure side hill easier than a sled.

Trench should be way less, for one they don't have the power, and two it's easier to feel the track spinning and turn out or down. Granted track length would/could come into play. I run a long track, and so far have never been stuck.

Sounds like you ride one? How do they do pulling a skier? I've been thinking about getting a bike for playing around in the summer and I've been thinking about getting a sled for BC access. Now I'm thinking one tool can do it all....

[GPP33]

This promo video highlights what you guys are talking about in regards to side hilling. In the wrong hands they could certainly be avalanche machines. Opening clip is pretty amazing, and scary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYCT...eHtCUB_d9R_CIw

[capulin overdrive]

Sounds like you ride one? How do they do pulling a skier? I've been thinking about getting a bike for playing around in the summer and I've been thinking about getting a sled for BC access. Now I'm thinking one tool can do it all....

Could pull a skier in certain conditions. But to be honest I wouldn't even want to try. First I'd be worried about being hard on the bike clutch, and second the bikes are a handful on groomed trails all by themselves.

There's a guy up in Washington who carries skis on his bike tunnel, and skis that way. So as access to skin up like around CB, they would work great. For doing laps like VP or Montezuma, I'd rather see you have a sled.

Like they say about sleds, once you start with the intent of sled skiing, you'll slowly but surely start to spend more and more time on the sled. Same would go for the bike, as it's even more fun.



Sleds are getting to be pretty darned cheap. OEM's are blowing out new sleds cheaper than I'd want to sell my used sled for.

So guess what I'm saying is, unless you can find a deal on a used snowbike kit. Could buy a dirt bike, and used sled for what you'd get into a bike and new bike kit.

[GPP33]

Could pull a skier in certain conditions. But to be honest I wouldn't even want to try. First I'd be worried about being hard on the bike clutch, and second the bikes are a handful on groomed trails all by themselves.

There's a guy up in Washington who carries skis on his bike tunnel, and skis that way. So as access to skin up like around CB, they would work great. For doing laps like VP or Montezuma, I'd rather see you have a sled.

Like they say about sleds, once you start with the intent of sled skiing, you'll slowly but surely start to spend more and more time on the sled. Same would go for the bike, as it's even more fun.



Sleds are getting to be pretty darned cheap. OEM's are blowing out new sleds cheaper than I'd want to sell my used sled for.

So guess what I'm saying is, unless you can find a deal on a used snowbike kit. Could buy a dirt bike, and used sled for what you'd get into a bike and new bike kit.

It would be for getting in deep and skinning up. Just looked at prices, I think I'll wait for the used market to pick up speed . $6k for the long track kit! Damn. I saw Polaris bought them, as they get more popular and Polaris starts applying their scale to the manufacturing operations I'd imagine prices will drop pretty heavily.

[goldenboy]

I think there is a greater cost in equipment and liability insurance to run a L1 or L2 on sleds and that is BEFORE you get into the total nightmare of FS permitting. There are also far fewer instructors who are good enough brappers to teach a motorized course.

Hadn't thought of those issues with motorized classes before. Definitely a problem given the number of accidents involving sleds, and unprepared sledders.