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Thread: 2016 Lange XT Freetour
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10-28-2016, 07:12 AM #76
I think that can easily happen spring skiing in sticky snow conditions.
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10-28-2016, 07:27 AM #77
I once made a turn so hard, that my knee touched the tops of my ski.... oh wait I was trying telemark.
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10-28-2016, 09:31 AM #78
Any word on if alpine blocks w tech inserts will be available or just wtr?
I don't want to replace all my bindings.
I'll go Cochise if this is the case.I rip the groomed on tele gear
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10-28-2016, 10:18 AM #79
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10-28-2016, 10:27 AM #80
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10-28-2016, 10:49 AM #81
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10-28-2016, 12:44 PM #82
I'm really confused as to why someone would need a really tight midfoot/navicular fit when fully flexing a boot? Considering you actually need to be able to get your cuneiform/navicular over to engage the ski.
Add in the plastic will deform a lot less at 0-40 Deg F than it does at 70-80 Deg F in the ski shop. I've never had someone complain of excess navicular room or cuneiform room in a ski boot, after they ski it.
Many WC boots are softened down to below the '130' boots on the shop wall, and blown out to allow the foot to get over the ski.
The radium was a totally different design, FWIW.
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10-28-2016, 02:12 PM #83
Larry brought out a pair of his "mutt" boots (some Lange prototype/mash-ups) to try on. Size was (I think) a 26.5 (Larry's an 11.5 and fits his boots aggressively).
The way they formed around my mid foot , I was ready to propose marriage to them ;-)
Having said that, I've been known to be my worst enemy on occasion.
... ThomLast edited by galibier_numero_un; 10-28-2016 at 02:50 PM.
Galibier Designcrafting technology in service of music
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10-28-2016, 06:25 PM #84Life is not lift served.
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10-28-2016, 07:20 PM #85
Rgr,
I don't think it is a problem, infact I regularly add volume to boots here. The reason for this is you need to be able to get the bones directly in front of your ankle over your edge to enable ski edge engagement. If you look at my boots, or many boots on the WC you will see that they have had an aggressive amount of volume added to the are in front of the ankle and below the ladder for the instep buckle. Good edge engagement involves rolling your navicular bone into this place. You want to be able to actively move this part of the foot in your ski boots.
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10-28-2016, 09:19 PM #86
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10-28-2016, 09:56 PM #87
Wasatch, I don't know what you agenda is here. But I do know that Cabrio boots maintain a better fit and performance on my foot through a wider range of flex (turn for turn) and a wider range of air temperatures than some other boots which deform as I have described. I am just another unremarkable Joe-nobody on snow, but I do ski 9 months a year, and every dollar I earn, is earned in ski boots. I am confident in my own personal observations of my foot in a ski boot.
Copy.
My issue is a very low volume foot and ankle. When the boot deforms a little in the manner described, my heel releases hold and the boot fit rapidly goes from from good to loose, back and forth, with each flex. Perhaps what you describe is desired, but if so, I first need a very well fitted boot as a foundation (as is always the case). Yet with my foot geometry, I am often close to a marginal fit and the distortion of the lower shell takes me from marginal fit to bad fit with every compression.Life is not lift served.
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10-29-2016, 01:22 AM #88Originally Posted by neck beard
Granted, I'm very big, FWIW.
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10-29-2016, 03:00 AM #89
Out of professional curiosity, do either or both of you prefer full rocker/ reverse camber skis?
Neck beard:
So when flexing a boot, a motion which naturally pushes your heel back into the pocket, your heel 'slips' loose?
Interesting, I can't diagnose this over the internets but it sounds like many of the boots you have may no't have a wide enough heel or ankle pocket for you, and your foot is not getting back into the boot.
What Wasatchback is alluding to is one of the many reasons you don't see Cabrini design boots in the WC, and why Dalbello had to develop the Scorpion series for racing.
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10-29-2016, 03:32 AM #90
Hang on soldier, I didnt say it "'slips' loose". I said "my heel releases hold and the boot fit rapidly goes from from good to loose". In other words: The boot fit around and in front of the ankle bellows out - becomes loose - and this allows my heel to move, right in the gravy stroke of each turn.
Ski shape: I ski both, no preference. Though recently I enjoyed a season on cambered skis and if I had to choose...
Racing boots: ok. But I am talking skiing variable density snow off-groomer, or heavy chop on groomer.
Loads of people have talked about this deformation in the past. Admittedly, it is worse on warmer days.Life is not lift served.
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10-29-2016, 05:40 AM #91
If I may.
So racing boots are like 150-170 flex? I owned a pair of 150 flex once and I don't think it was a problem because at 150 I couldn't flex them. But if you get into 100 flex overlap boot, and flex the shit out of it you can see the shell distort around the front of the ankle. If you have a good heel pocket and normal foot its really not much of an issue fbut I can see it possibly being one for some people.
The cabrio design probably distorts a bit too, just less by design. But you generally have an instep buckle and in Dalbello's and FT case a cable that pulls that heel back and also probably contains the shell from splaying in that spot.
I'm perhaps one of those who is happy in both types of boots, though I do prefer the smoother flex of the cabrio boot and the way you can easily change the flex with a tongue swap."timberridge is terminally vapid" -- a fortune cookie in Yueyang
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10-29-2016, 03:00 PM #92
Maybe I've been lucky with respect to shell fit, bulge, and overlap boots. I am pretty picky in this regard, and I have had my problems, but they manifest differently.
Using boots I use for lift serviced skiing as an example (the above referenced Titans), I found myself fiddling with buckles for the first half of the day. Last year, I picked up a boot warming bag and found that this reduced the fiddle factor to nearly zero.
Thinking about this, I realized that the all morning fiddling was a function of trying to heat up the lower shell (through flexing) to get it to wrap more precisely around my lower foot. The heated bag obviated this.
This doesn't seem to be as big of a deal with touring boots (Mango Maestrales), and I can't say for certain whether it's shell design, softness, or the fact that there's a lot of motion (heating up the boot) before I latch them up to point them down hill.
Cheers,
ThomLast edited by galibier_numero_un; 10-29-2016 at 03:13 PM.
Galibier Designcrafting technology in service of music
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10-29-2016, 04:26 PM #93
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10-30-2016, 08:44 AM #94
You don't have to drive them on edge. If you look at the three companies who currently make the top full rocker skis (Volkl, 4FRNT, Dynafit) they all are heavily influenced by Cabrini boots skiers who ski in them (4FRNT: Hoji, Volkl/Dynafit by the boots they make).
I'm still confused as how a boot bellowing out in the mid foot (where you want to be able to move your foot in the boot) is causing your heel to move out of position. When this is happening you Foot should be loaded in such a way that your heel is being forced into the corner of the pocket.
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10-30-2016, 08:51 AM #95
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10-30-2016, 09:46 AM #96
When I read "heel lifting out of pocket" my first thought/diagnosis is poor dorsiflection, but without that range of motion, there is no way you can flex the boot deep enough create the bellowing effect.
I agree with Xavier, when the foot is in a deep angle of flex that is pushing the dynamics of the boot to create a bellowing effect, your heel would be driven back into the pocket, and the foot would be stabilized and in a supported position that would not be effected by the slight bellowing of the boot.
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10-30-2016, 04:58 PM #97
I never said the hell lifts out of the pocket.
Perhaps I should not have focused so much on my heel. Incorrect wording on my behalf that you guys grabbed onto.
The bellowing happens between the ankle and the instep buckle, where the golf ball dimples are. The boot widens in that area and fit goes out the window. It is just that simple. People with skinny ankles and heels notice this.
To be clear we are talking about the Cochise here. And to be fair I have not skied it, but I have skied a boot that bulged like this and the performance was not good on variable density or chopped heavy snow that caused dynamic compression of the boot, and consequent bellowing.
I tried one on again yesterday, with a Salomon XMax 120 on the other foot. The Cochise bulge in the shell when you flex forward is obvious. And barely visible, if at all, with the Salomon. On the Cochise, you can even see the instep buckle lever moving as the shell changes shape. I suppose that is a 'feature not a bug'. I also compared to a Lange - no bulge. I tried to film the Cochise bulge but my hand was moving and it did not come out well. Should have gotten someone to hold my phone while I flexed the boot.Life is not lift served.
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10-30-2016, 06:28 PM #98
I did a quick try-on of the Cochise 130 today, and it has a very sweet flex pattern. Heel hold is too close to call (vs. the Lange). In my next session later this week, I'll compare it against the XT 130 Freetour, and observe things like shell bulge. I don't think this is an area I have trouble with (with my foot shape), but I'll take this into consideration.
I definitely notice a slightly more pitched forward stance with the Cochises, and I suspect that I'll prefer how I stand in the Langes, but we're talking about two very good boots for my foot and the intended application. I don't think I can make a bad choice.
Cheers,
ThomGalibier Designcrafting technology in service of music
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10-30-2016, 08:16 PM #99
BLUF: you should be able to move your foot specifically your ankle and midfoot over your inside edge in the boot.
Hmm.
I guess what I am trying to say is generally we have trouble adding enough space to boots in the area you are discribing as you need to be able to roll your ankle and foot into this spot to get the ski edge to engage.
Many boots come prepunched here to add volume.Last edited by XavierD; 10-30-2016 at 09:39 PM.
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10-30-2016, 09:05 PM #100
I'm missing the distinction. I get the idea of skiing with your foot - making micro adjustments with subtle foot inflections to change edge pressure
This seems to me to be something you'd control with buckle adjustments. You don't need to loosen a boot much to accomplish this.
IOW, I don't see a scenario where too much volume between your foot and the shell is a good thing.
This (extra space) seems to me to be what's challenging neck beard with his narrow heel, ankle, and (I believe) low volume mid foot.
Cheers,
ThomGalibier Designcrafting technology in service of music
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