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  1. #76
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    I think that can easily happen spring skiing in sticky snow conditions.

  2. #77
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    I once made a turn so hard, that my knee touched the tops of my ski.... oh wait I was trying telemark.

  3. #78
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    Any word on if alpine blocks w tech inserts will be available or just wtr?

    I don't want to replace all my bindings.

    I'll go Cochise if this is the case.
    I rip the groomed on tele gear

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by wasatchback View Post
    While skiing you would never flex a boot hard enough to get the shell to deform like you do standing in a ski shop at room temp. If you did you would no longer be skiing the skis would have engaged so hard you would most likely be in the air and upside down.
    #Rep-splaining

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRainey View Post
    #Rep-splaining
    haha, this.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by detrusor View Post
    Any word on if alpine blocks w tech inserts will be available or just wtr?
    They say no ISO 5355 blocks for the Free Tour for the time being. The tech fittings are permanently molded in, just the rubber is replaceable.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by neck beard View Post
    At room temp in a shop, the 130 Cochise lower shell bellows out when the boot is flexed forward. In the area between the cuff pivot and the buckle over the foot. Deal breaker for my narrow foot and ankle. I need all the fit I can get thought the range of flex. I remember my old Radiums did this and I hated it.
    I'm really confused as to why someone would need a really tight midfoot/navicular fit when fully flexing a boot? Considering you actually need to be able to get your cuneiform/navicular over to engage the ski.
    Add in the plastic will deform a lot less at 0-40 Deg F than it does at 70-80 Deg F in the ski shop. I've never had someone complain of excess navicular room or cuneiform room in a ski boot, after they ski it.

    Many WC boots are softened down to below the '130' boots on the shop wall, and blown out to allow the foot to get over the ski.

    The radium was a totally different design, FWIW.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by XavierD View Post
    I'm really confused as to why someone would need a really tight midfoot/navicular fit when fully flexing a boot? Considering you actually need to be able to get your cuneiform/navicular over to engage the ski.
    Larry brought out a pair of his "mutt" boots (some Lange prototype/mash-ups) to try on. Size was (I think) a 26.5 (Larry's an 11.5 and fits his boots aggressively).

    The way they formed around my mid foot , I was ready to propose marriage to them ;-)

    Having said that, I've been known to be my worst enemy on occasion.

    ... Thom
    Last edited by galibier_numero_un; 10-28-2016 at 03:50 PM.
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by XavierD View Post
    I'm really confused as to why someone would need a really tight midfoot/navicular fit when fully flexing a boot? Considering you actually need to be able to get your cuneiform/navicular over to engage the ski.
    Big foot words confuse me. But the boot shell widened just below and infront of the ankle by a few mm each side. You could see it. I have met many people who talk about this with various boots. Its common. Cabrio boots are said to reduce this problem.
    Life is not lift served.

  10. #85
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    Rgr,

    I don't think it is a problem, infact I regularly add volume to boots here. The reason for this is you need to be able to get the bones directly in front of your ankle over your edge to enable ski edge engagement. If you look at my boots, or many boots on the WC you will see that they have had an aggressive amount of volume added to the are in front of the ankle and below the ladder for the instep buckle. Good edge engagement involves rolling your navicular bone into this place. You want to be able to actively move this part of the foot in your ski boots.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by neck beard View Post
    Big foot words confuse me. But the boot shell widened just below and infront of the ankle by a few mm each side. You could see it. I have met many people who talk about this with various boots. Its common. Cabrio boots are said to reduce this WHICH IS THE problem.
    fixed it for you

  12. #87
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    Wasatch, I don't know what you agenda is here. But I do know that Cabrio boots maintain a better fit and performance on my foot through a wider range of flex (turn for turn) and a wider range of air temperatures than some other boots which deform as I have described. I am just another unremarkable Joe-nobody on snow, but I do ski 9 months a year, and every dollar I earn, is earned in ski boots. I am confident in my own personal observations of my foot in a ski boot.

    Quote Originally Posted by XavierD View Post
    Rgr,

    I don't think it is a problem, infact I regularly add volume to boots here. The reason for this is you need to be able to get the bones directly in front of your ankle over your edge to enable ski edge engagement. If you look at my boots, or many boots on the WC you will see that they have had an aggressive amount of volume added to the are in front of the ankle and below the ladder for the instep buckle. Good edge engagement involves rolling your navicular bone into this place. You want to be able to actively move this part of the foot in your ski boots.
    Copy.

    My issue is a very low volume foot and ankle. When the boot deforms a little in the manner described, my heel releases hold and the boot fit rapidly goes from from good to loose, back and forth, with each flex. Perhaps what you describe is desired, but if so, I first need a very well fitted boot as a foundation (as is always the case). Yet with my foot geometry, I am often close to a marginal fit and the distortion of the lower shell takes me from marginal fit to bad fit with every compression.
    Life is not lift served.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by neck beard
    ...the distortion of the lower shell takes me from marginal fit to bad fit with every compression.
    +1 for me too. I have no idea how more people don't complain of this. I also solved this issue with Cabrio boots - Lupos, Vulcans, Roxas, and Nordica Firearrow - all of which did not have this problem at all; a problem which was common with overlap boots for me.
    Granted, I'm very big, FWIW.

  14. #89
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    Out of professional curiosity, do either or both of you prefer full rocker/ reverse camber skis?


    Neck beard:
    So when flexing a boot, a motion which naturally pushes your heel back into the pocket, your heel 'slips' loose?
    Interesting, I can't diagnose this over the internets but it sounds like many of the boots you have may no't have a wide enough heel or ankle pocket for you, and your foot is not getting back into the boot.

    What Wasatchback is alluding to is one of the many reasons you don't see Cabrini design boots in the WC, and why Dalbello had to develop the Scorpion series for racing.

  15. #90
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    Hang on soldier, I didnt say it "'slips' loose". I said "my heel releases hold and the boot fit rapidly goes from from good to loose". In other words: The boot fit around and in front of the ankle bellows out - becomes loose - and this allows my heel to move, right in the gravy stroke of each turn.

    Ski shape: I ski both, no preference. Though recently I enjoyed a season on cambered skis and if I had to choose...

    Racing boots: ok. But I am talking skiing variable density snow off-groomer, or heavy chop on groomer.

    Loads of people have talked about this deformation in the past. Admittedly, it is worse on warmer days.
    Life is not lift served.

  16. #91
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    If I may.

    So racing boots are like 150-170 flex? I owned a pair of 150 flex once and I don't think it was a problem because at 150 I couldn't flex them. But if you get into 100 flex overlap boot, and flex the shit out of it you can see the shell distort around the front of the ankle. If you have a good heel pocket and normal foot its really not much of an issue fbut I can see it possibly being one for some people.

    The cabrio design probably distorts a bit too, just less by design. But you generally have an instep buckle and in Dalbello's and FT case a cable that pulls that heel back and also probably contains the shell from splaying in that spot.

    I'm perhaps one of those who is happy in both types of boots, though I do prefer the smoother flex of the cabrio boot and the way you can easily change the flex with a tongue swap.
    DISCLAIMER: I am only a fry cook. The foregoing statements are merely observations from a fellow forum member and do NOT constitute legal advice. Do NOT rely on the foregoing observations. If you seek counsel from an attorney, engage one. If your fries are soggy, file a complaint with restaurant management.

  17. #92
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    Maybe I've been lucky with respect to shell fit, bulge, and overlap boots. I am pretty picky in this regard, and I have had my problems, but they manifest differently.

    Using boots I use for lift serviced skiing as an example (the above referenced Titans), I found myself fiddling with buckles for the first half of the day. Last year, I picked up a boot warming bag and found that this reduced the fiddle factor to nearly zero.

    Thinking about this, I realized that the all morning fiddling was a function of trying to heat up the lower shell (through flexing) to get it to wrap more precisely around my lower foot. The heated bag obviated this.

    This doesn't seem to be as big of a deal with touring boots (Mango Maestrales), and I can't say for certain whether it's shell design, softness, or the fact that there's a lot of motion (heating up the boot) before I latch them up to point them down hill.

    Cheers,
    Thom
    Last edited by galibier_numero_un; 10-29-2016 at 04:13 PM.
    Galibier Design
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  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by XavierD View Post
    Out of professional curiosity, do either or both of you prefer full rocker/ reverse camber skis?
    Absolutely. curious why you ask?

    that being said, I do want to try overlap boots again. these Langes are interesting.
    Last edited by Judo Chop!; 10-29-2016 at 05:43 PM.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judo Chop! View Post
    Absolutely. curious why you ask?

    that being said, I do want to try overlap boots again. these Langes are interesting.
    You don't have to drive them on edge. If you look at the three companies who currently make the top full rocker skis (Volkl, 4FRNT, Dynafit) they all are heavily influenced by Cabrini boots skiers who ski in them (4FRNT: Hoji, Volkl/Dynafit by the boots they make).

    I'm still confused as how a boot bellowing out in the mid foot (where you want to be able to move your foot in the boot) is causing your heel to move out of position. When this is happening you Foot should be loaded in such a way that your heel is being forced into the corner of the pocket.

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judo Chop! View Post
    +1 for me too. I have no idea how more people don't complain of this. I also solved this issue with Cabrio boots - Lupos, Vulcans, Roxas, and Nordica Firearrow - all of which did not have this problem at all; a problem which was common with overlap boots for me.
    Granted, I'm very big, FWIW.
    +2 on the lower blowing out problem.

    This is why I ski Lange. Stiff, narrow, heel, low volume, very little bellowing.

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by XavierD View Post
    I'm still confused as how a boot bellowing out in the mid foot (where you want to be able to move your foot in the boot) is causing your heel to move out of position. When this is happening you Foot should be loaded in such a way that your heel is being forced into the corner of the pocket.
    When I read "heel lifting out of pocket" my first thought/diagnosis is poor dorsiflection, but without that range of motion, there is no way you can flex the boot deep enough create the bellowing effect.
    I agree with Xavier, when the foot is in a deep angle of flex that is pushing the dynamics of the boot to create a bellowing effect, your heel would be driven back into the pocket, and the foot would be stabilized and in a supported position that would not be effected by the slight bellowing of the boot.

  22. #97
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    I never said the hell lifts out of the pocket.

    Quote Originally Posted by XavierD View Post
    I'm still confused as how a boot bellowing out in the mid foot (where you want to be able to move your foot in the boot) is causing your heel to move out of position. When this is happening you Foot should be loaded in such a way that your heel is being forced into the corner of the pocket.
    Perhaps I should not have focused so much on my heel. Incorrect wording on my behalf that you guys grabbed onto.

    The bellowing happens between the ankle and the instep buckle, where the golf ball dimples are. The boot widens in that area and fit goes out the window. It is just that simple. People with skinny ankles and heels notice this.

    To be clear we are talking about the Cochise here. And to be fair I have not skied it, but I have skied a boot that bulged like this and the performance was not good on variable density or chopped heavy snow that caused dynamic compression of the boot, and consequent bellowing.

    I tried one on again yesterday, with a Salomon XMax 120 on the other foot. The Cochise bulge in the shell when you flex forward is obvious. And barely visible, if at all, with the Salomon. On the Cochise, you can even see the instep buckle lever moving as the shell changes shape. I suppose that is a 'feature not a bug'. I also compared to a Lange - no bulge. I tried to film the Cochise bulge but my hand was moving and it did not come out well. Should have gotten someone to hold my phone while I flexed the boot.
    Life is not lift served.

  23. #98
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    I did a quick try-on of the Cochise 130 today, and it has a very sweet flex pattern. Heel hold is too close to call (vs. the Lange). In my next session later this week, I'll compare it against the XT 130 Freetour, and observe things like shell bulge. I don't think this is an area I have trouble with (with my foot shape), but I'll take this into consideration.

    I definitely notice a slightly more pitched forward stance with the Cochises, and I suspect that I'll prefer how I stand in the Langes, but we're talking about two very good boots for my foot and the intended application. I don't think I can make a bad choice.

    Cheers,
    Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  24. #99
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    BLUF: you should be able to move your foot specifically your ankle and midfoot over your inside edge in the boot.

    Hmm.
    I guess what I am trying to say is generally we have trouble adding enough space to boots in the area you are discribing as you need to be able to roll your ankle and foot into this spot to get the ski edge to engage.

    Many boots come prepunched here to add volume.
    Last edited by XavierD; 10-30-2016 at 10:39 PM.

  25. #100
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    I'm missing the distinction. I get the idea of skiing with your foot - making micro adjustments with subtle foot inflections to change edge pressure

    This seems to me to be something you'd control with buckle adjustments. You don't need to loosen a boot much to accomplish this.

    IOW, I don't see a scenario where too much volume between your foot and the shell is a good thing.

    This (extra space) seems to me to be what's challenging neck beard with his narrow heel, ankle, and (I believe) low volume mid foot.

    Cheers,
    Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

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