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  1. #51
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    Sep 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregL View Post
    There is no industry standard for "true" flex. Manufacturers pick a number to represent what they think is appropriate for a given level of skier, with 130 typically being the stiffest men's recreational flex, but "130" flexes are all over the map. It's not even consistent even within a brand - the Lange RS 130, RX 130, XT 130 and XT 130 Free Tour all flex differently. On my foot (one on each foot), the XT 130 Free Tour feels about like the RX 120, not especially stiff but it skis great.
    Thanks. Just debating th RX vs. XT for resort d/hill. I don't need the walk/hike gizmo, but the slightly softer "rounder" flex sounds appealing.

  2. #52
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    Jul 2006
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    voting in seattle
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    I agree, closest comparison would be an RX 120. It does not ramp up the flex as fast as an RX 130, i.e. the initial flex is looser. Deeper into the flex it does stiffen up past what the RX 120 does.

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
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    534
    Maybe a naive question but when a boot like the XT freetour comes in two last widths is it just the lower clog thats different or is the narrower boot also tighter in ankle (i.e lower part of the upper)? Also is it just forefoot width or does the narrower last usually extend back to the heel cup?

  4. #54
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    That may vary by brand, but to my knowledge most brands that have separate lasts under the same name (Lange 97vs100mm, Tecnica MV vs LV, Atomic Ultra vs Prime) use two different molds. The Lange in question does have a different ankle volume in the LV than 100mm option. Keep in mind that the lower will determine the fit around the upper ankle, not the cuff. If a brand wanted to use the same cuff for both boots they would need to make sure that the lowers have the same external dimensions. I don't know of any boots where this is true.

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Red Lodge, MT
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    281
    Any chance anyone who's skied the new XT has also skied the BD Factor and can compare both fit and performance?

    I love the way my Factors fit, but I've already been thinking they've looked pretty cooked for a couple of season now, and the downhill performance leaves something to be desired when trying to drive race skis. I was thinking I'd have to suck it up and go back to having touring boots and race boots, but if I can get away with one pair rather than two, that would be a lot more convenient...

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    The Ice Coast
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    951
    All for buying new stuff, but truth is, your shells are prolly fine, unless you have cracks or broken hardwear. And liners are cheaper and easier to replace than getting new boots. Just sayin' ....

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    Den/Baltimore
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    I think you'll be happier with race boots and touring boots. I know I am.
    "Alpine rock and steep, deep powder are what I seek, and I will always find solace there." - Bean Bowers

    meager stoke

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
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    1

    question

    Quote Originally Posted by gregL View Post
    (I won't have to cut out the elastic and vinyl like I usually do with Langes).
    could you explain what you mean? Not familiar with what that entails.

    Nick

  9. #59
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    Aug 2008
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    he's talking about the elastic and vinyl material often found on the instep of OEM liners. see arrow pointing to instep pocket cut out below

    Click image for larger version. 

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  10. #60
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    Dec 2010
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    西 雅 圖
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    Thanks, Seatown. Cutting out the elastic as pictured, as well as the vinyl and about 1/2" of the material under the vinyl (and in the old tongues grinding the tongue plastic thinner) is common practice for tight insteps.

  11. #61
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    36
    can someone confirm what I am seeing. Is the walk mechanism the same on the XT130 and XT130 freetour?

  12. #62
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    Aug 2011
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    Der Town
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    4,201
    Looks like I'll be getting a pair of XT 130 LVs, I'll be sure to give a biased and vague review about them.

  13. #63
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    Dec 2014
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    Colorado Front Range
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leavenworth Skier View Post
    Looks like I'll be getting a pair of XT 130 LVs, I'll be sure to give a biased and vague review about them.
    These are really floating to the top of my list as well (for area/sidecountry use) - assuming one of the two last widths work. I'm getting really tired of trying to anchoring down my skinny heels.

    ... Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  14. #64
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    Sep 2010
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    Golden/Breckenridge
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    Quote Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un View Post
    These are really floating to the top of my list as well (for area/sidecountry use) - assuming one of the two last widths work. I'm getting really tired of trying to anchoring down my skinny heels.

    ... Thom
    The new Cochise is quite different from the old one in this regard, btw

  15. #65
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    Dec 2014
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    Thanks! The Cochise and the Lupo are definitely on my short list as well and I can't eliminate the Zero G Guide Pro from contention (if it's truly in the 120-130 range). My alpine binders are all Wardens, so I have some flexibility. This season is truly an embarrassment of riches.

    There's something that really draws me to having cuff alignment (Lange), but fit and flex will of course be the determining factors. Cuff alignment along with stack height are the two areas I'm extremely sensitive to (not so much ramp angle).

    Time to saunter on down to Larry's ;-)

    ... Thom
    Last edited by galibier_numero_un; 10-14-2016 at 01:00 AM.
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  16. #66
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Whistler, BC
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    1,189
    Also looking at the free tour, Cochise and lupo. Will buy whichever has the tightest heel pocket
    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Whelk View Post
    a more stupid motherfuck does not exist.
    Big Balls is worst asshat kind.
    kind that wear bukkake from above.
    with warm drown he gurgles final death, for one time not worried about his misplaced import known of african american social standing and prominent community members. for he is only drown, as is the way.

  17. #67
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Ten Mile Vistas
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    I just picked up a pair of Freetours in the 97mm low volume model. I bought a pair of the non-tech, XT 130 l.v. over the summer, but returned them when I found these. I've been skiing the last decade in the 98mm Lange mold they produced from '06-'10(?), so I'm optimistic that I can dial in the fit with minimal work. I'll be putting some Intuition Luxury Liners in 'em. The goal is to have these as my only boot. Bye, bye Dynafit Titans?
    '09/'10: 69
    '10/'11: 84
    '11/'12: 67
    '12/'13: 65

  18. #68
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    Dec 2014
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    Colorado Front Range
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    I'm working my way through my replacement "project" for my 1st generation Titans. With the current choice in beef boots, I'm certain that this boot will come from the Cochise/Lupo/XT 130 Freetour LV category. All my skis have either Wardens or Vipecs.

    On my first visit to Larry's, I dialed in the right shell fit for the Lupo - a 25.5 for my 9.5/ C-D width foot with narrow heels/ankles. The correct shell size biased me toward the Lupo. I mention this, because the Langes & Cochise I tried on were a bit looser (26.5), and this translates not only to a sloppier fit, but a less "connected" feeling where you can't really evaluate the boot for flex pattern and such.

    For this visit I played with the Dalbello Lupo TI Carbon and the XT 130 Freetour LV in 25.5 which are both a performance fit - a tight one finger spacing.

    Here are my carpet testing observations ...

    Ankle/heel pocket:

    I love the narrow heel/ankle pocket in both boots (using both my Powerwrap liners molded for my Titans as well as each boot's stock liner - in both cases with my footbeds). It would be hard to pick a winner for my foot without molding, but let's just say that they are both confidence inspiring and more precise fitting than my Titans (the best fit I was able to find in a Tech compatible boot when I purchased them).

    Flex
    Lange: I noticed the same thing a poster mentioned a while back - that the initial flex on the Lange is somewhat soft before stiffening up. I like this, and think it would work well for my style - especially in soft snow, where I like a bit of flexibility which puts the onus on me to establish the balance point on the ski.

    My sense is that the Lange would work better for me in a range of conditions - especially since my screw-ups occur in variable snow. I could be wrong, and it's worth noting that this is very ski style related. I'm a "foot" skier as opposed to a "knee" skier, if that makes sense.

    Lupo: a bit stiffer in the initial stage. I could live with this (and would probably prefer it in harder snow).

    Stance/footbed angle:

    This is where the big "aha" moment occurred

    I'm bonding with the Lange over the Lupo in this regard. I find this footbed angle thing to be fascinating, as I've publicly stated that I'm not overly sensitive to ramp angle. All I can say about this, is that it's a different sensation from binding ramp angle and is difficult to explain. I realize I'm comparing a cabrio design against an overlap architecture, but there's something else going on - from a body position perspective.

    In the Langes, my hips feel more square and "locked in" and this causes me to engage the boot's flex differently than I do with the Lupo. I had a private dialog with one of the maggots, he described what I was trying to articulate as the Lange having a more connected/grounded feeling with the ski/snow. This is a good way of saying it.

    I need to emphasize how the square hips thing really caught my attention however - the sensation that I could more easily drive my hips down (independently of driving them forward) while keeping them square. When I mentioned the square hips thing to Larry (who I've come to learn is a big fan of the "Lange stance"), he smiled with a knowing look - implying that it was for me to discover on my own - not his place to tell me. He did express a liking for the 4 degree footbed angle.

    Touring mode:

    The Lupo wins hands down when its tongue is removed. With the tongue in, the two boots are close enough to not be a determining factor. If my target goal for this boot was more than just occasional sidecountry use, I'd be in conflict, because the Lupo (sans tongue) flexes like a full-on touring boot.

    Next up:

    Play with the Cochise 130 in the correct size. It's going to come down to this boot or the XT 130 Freetour LV, which has set a very high bar.

    Cheers,
    Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  19. #69
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    Sep 2010
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    Are you sure it's the footbed angle and not the cuff angle of the Lange? My understanding is Lange has a more outward cuff angle, better for people with small Q angles.
    "Alpine rock and steep, deep powder are what I seek, and I will always find solace there." - Bean Bowers

    meager stoke

  20. #70
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    198
    Why a Cochise 130 and not a Zero G Guide Pro? Fitment?

  21. #71
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    Dec 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by auvgeek View Post
    Are you sure it's the footbed angle and not the cuff angle of the Lange? My understanding is Lange has a more outward cuff angle, better for people with small Q angles.
    Difficult to say with certainty. It was a kinesthetic thing that I have difficulty explaining. The one thing that was clear is that I felt more balanced - able to respond to dynamic changes. Obviously, this is prognostication but short of demoing boots, it's the only thing I have to go on.

    ... Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  22. #72
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    Dec 2014
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    Colorado Front Range
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJG View Post
    Why a Cochise 130 and not a Zero G Guide Pro? Fitment?
    When I first heard about it, the Zero G Guide Pro was #1 on my wish list. I'll definitely do a full Technica session (Z-G Pro, Cochise 120, 130). The Z-G Pros haven't landed in the shop yet.

    One thing influencing my thinking is that I have Mango Maestrales which apart from a sloppy ankle work well for touring. My current "misery point" is inbounds.

    Most of this has to do with my sense (like auvgeek) that a two boot quiver works best. Having said that, if a Zero G Guide Pro felt every bit as good as the Lange (while perhaps being a bit softer than I'd prefer for inbounds), I'd then be faced with the dilemma - can I "get by" one boot (first world problem).

    At the end of the day, the best heel fit combined with intangibles (my footbed angle rant) will make the determination. The Langes set a very high bar in this regard, but that doesn't mean that the Technicas won't equal or surpass that for me.

    The last stiff/expert/race boot I had was in the late '80's. I tele'd for several years and returned to fixed heel with a pair of Megarides. At the time (being used to no control with tele), the Megarides felt stiff enough. With each successive year, I'm coming wanting more and more beef for inbounds.

    Cheers,
    Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  23. #73
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    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un View Post
    The Cochise and the Lupo
    At room temp in a shop, the 130 Cochise lower shell bellows out when the boot is flexed forward. In the area between the cuff pivot and the buckle over the foot. Deal breaker for my narrow foot and ankle. I need all the fit I can get thought the range of flex. I remember my old Radiums did this and I hated it.
    Life is not lift served.

  24. #74
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    Dec 2010
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    ut
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    748
    While skiing you would never flex a boot hard enough to get the shell to deform like you do standing in a ski shop at room temp. If you did you would no longer be skiing the skis would have engaged so hard you would most likely be in the air and upside down.

  25. #75
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    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by wasatchback View Post
    While skiing you would never flex a boot hard enough to get the shell to deform like you do standing in a ski shop at room temp. If you did you would no longer be skiing the skis would have engaged so hard you would most likely be in the air and upside down.
    And yet I have never found myself "in the air and upside down".

    Perhaps you are talking boot flex on a smooth groomer?

    Dynamic flex in snow that punches back = certain boots deform at the front ankle area.
    Life is not lift served.

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