vis-a-vis test: dynafit khion vs salomon mtn lab

**verbier61** · 01-30-2016, 02:52 PM

skied one full day with khion on the left foot and mtn lab on the right one. I'm more and more convinced that this is by far the best way to compare boots.
The khion is - notoriously - a PIA to slip in. For my foot, it's mandatory first to slip in the liner and than in the boot. said that, my khions have more than 20 days and the liners are ok, so the procedure does not spoil that much the liners. slipping in the mtn lab, at variance, is pretty easy.

mtn labs walk way better. there are several tricks to improve ROM and walk in the khion, but mtn labalways walk better.

both boots ski very well, definitely better than any other AT boot of 3-4 years ago. Khion is a bit stiffer, mtn lab a bit more progressive. Khion is a bit more demanding. Khion seems to have a bit more volume than mtn lab below the the foot. Lateral stiffness is a bit better in the khion, particularly when skiing larger skis (used the bacon today). after switching to skinnier skis (movement response x) this difference was less relevant.

**LeeLau** · 01-30-2016, 02:56 PM

Attaboy!

**hoarhey** · 01-30-2016, 04:23 PM

Grazie!

**grinch** · 01-30-2016, 04:37 PM

verly interdasting

**nickel** · 01-30-2016, 10:40 PM

Interdesting indeed. Surprised to hear mtnlab skins better. Steep skintrack or flat? Boots done up or undone? What tricks do you speak of?

**verbier61** · 01-31-2016, 01:12 AM

if you want the maximum motion with the khion, open totally the buckle (logical) and push the aluminium piece with your hand.
after you have the twice of motion.

**verbier61** · 01-31-2016, 01:12 AM

Most of the skin comparison was done on mellow terrain

**smooth operator** · 01-31-2016, 03:59 AM

Nice one, I was waiting for this comparo. However, after having heard such good things about the tecnica zeroG I might wait one more year to have the widest choice.
I have the feeling we are in the midst of a new wave of revolutionary shoes with these two shoes and the zeroG. The previous wave being vulcan, cochise, maestrale etc.

**nickel** · 01-31-2016, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by verbier61

if you want the maximum motion with the khion, open totally the buckle (logical) and push the aluminium piece with your hand.
after you have the twice of motion.

Aluminium piece? Magnesium spoiler (green) or something else?

**XXX-er** · 01-31-2016, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by smooth operator

Nice one, I was waiting for this comparo. However, after having heard such good things about the tecnica zeroG I might wait one more year to have the widest choice.
I have the feeling we are in the midst of a new wave of revolutionary shoes with these two shoes and the zeroG. The previous wave being vulcan, cochise, maestrale etc.

The compro I read between Vulcan & Khion claims the Khion is marginaly better for the down and definitely not a better for the up so called it a sidecountry boot ... not very revolutionary IMO

**verbier61** · 02-01-2016, 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by nickel

Aluminium piece? Magnesium spoiler (green) or something else?

the khion walk mode is different from any other... and if you do not open the upper buckles you can ski on walk mode without (almost) feeling it... anyway, to improve walk, open the buckle and push the alluminium leverage as back as you can.... or, at least, it works so in my boot

**kootenayskier** · 02-01-2016, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by XXX-er

The compro I read between Vulcan & Khion claims the Khion is marginaly better for the down and definitely not a better for the up so called it a sidecountry boot ... not very revolutionary IMO

I'm completely happy with how my Dynafit Mercury fits, tours, and skis. Swapping out the tongues is a minor inconvenience. I'll start to get excited when there's a new boot available that delivers equivalent or better performance in regard to each of these criteria, without swapping the tongues. Without having skied them, these latest options (Khion, Mtn Lab, Zero G) seem to require compromising fit and tourabilty, for minor and unnecessary (for me) changes in stiffness and flex quality. I understand the sales logic that is driving the development of all these shop-fit sidecountry boots, but for big days in the mountains, I'm still waiting.

**verbier61** · 02-01-2016, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by kootenayskier

I'm completely happy with how my Dynafit Mercury fits, tours, and skis. Swapping out the tongues is a minor inconvenience. I'll start to get excited when there's a new boot available that delivers equivalent or better performance in regard to each of these criteria, without swapping the tongues. Without having skied them, these latest options (Khion, Mtn Lab, Zero G) seem to require compromising fit and tourabilty, for minor and unnecessary (for me) changes in stiffness and flex quality. I understand the sales logic that is driving the development of all these shop-fit sidecountry boots, but for big days in the mountains, I'm still waiting.

for the way I ski, both khion and mtn lab ski better than (and walk more or less similar to) the mercury, w/o the tongie PIA.
Then there is the fitting issue, that is totally personal

**XXX-er** · 02-01-2016, 01:00 PM

It sounds like the Mtn Lab is a going to be sucessful

I wouldnt be suprised to see Khion be a short lived product,
I predict blow out sales this year

for me it was fit fit fit period a one finger fit with no punches
and I can adjust to how the mercury and now the vulcan skis

**bennymac** · 02-07-2016, 09:46 PM

If you're a customer in the market for new boots then it seems like Mtn Labs - having comparable weight, stiffness, flex, and touring ability - would easily trump Vulcans.

When you got to the top of a skintrack you could spend your extra time (after easily flipping three buckles) counting the $250 you saved while the Vulcan user swaps in tongues

Fit is personal and subjective so that could sway your decision.

**LeeLau** · 02-07-2016, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by kootenayskier

I'm completely happy with how my Dynafit Mercury fits, tours, and skis. Swapping out the tongues is a minor inconvenience. I'll start to get excited when there's a new boot available that delivers equivalent or better performance in regard to each of these criteria, without swapping the tongues. Without having skied them, these latest options (Khion, Mtn Lab, Zero G) seem to require compromising fit and tourabilty, for minor and unnecessary (for me) changes in stiffness and flex quality. I understand the sales logic that is driving the development of all these shop-fit sidecountry boots, but for big days in the mountains, I'm still waiting.

Vulcan tours as well as Mercury and IMO skied just fine without tongue.

Khion IMO compromises tourability too much for my tast

With the caveat of just having 2 days on them ZeroG skis at least as well as Vulcan. Perhaps better in terms of pure feel for the snow. Doesn't tour as well as Vulcan but better than Khion. That Palau liner is surprisingly good so far and I'll keep using it for a while. It conformed enough that fit went went from marginal to good.

Vulcan is still my favourite but this is now a moot point as, in their infinite wisdom, Dynafit will phase it out.

**kootenayskier** · 02-08-2016, 09:20 AM

Quick shop test of Mtn Lab, my size, unmolded,stock foot beds etc. Tight across the forefoot, sloppy around the heel and ankle, flexed forward like a touring boot, impressively mobile in touring mode, fast and easy on the transitions. I expect these would work great if I could resolve the high ankle volume/lack of instep buckle issue.

**Dromond** · 02-08-2016, 09:37 AM

I was going to ask about instep/ankle fit on that boot. The ankle buckle and tightly sculpted heel pocket have been key for me with the Mercuries so far. Anyone know how the mtn lab and Khion forward lean compare? Handling the Khion, the lean looked aggressive and not adjustable which would never work for me.

**harpo-the-skier** · 02-08-2016, 10:27 PM

I love my mercuries sans tongue too.

**swissiphic** · 02-09-2016, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by Dromond

I was going to ask about instep/ankle fit on that boot.

My previous boot was a mercury punched aggressively for forefoot width and it fit well with intuition high volume luxury liners..snug in the heel, full contact in the curve of fold of ankle and instep.

Did a lengthy shop fit testing session with the mtn. lab and was satisfied that with my intuitions, the fit tension would be enough in the instep/ankle/heel area to work for my foot. Real world told a different story though. Instep height felt too high and chasing fit tension with foam was insufficient. Forward lean felt too upright, but I suspect that might be due primarily because of lack of contact with foot and fold of ankle/shin bones with boot cuff/fold of ankle/instep shell...was rarely ever really engaged with the true flex of the boot and made it feel a bit brick like at times with the foot moving fore and aft and shell not responding to shin input...I thought I had these issues solved with some heel wedges and c pads to take up some volume and it did snug the fairly volumous heel pocket up a bit but lateral slop re emerged after liner foam packed out.

There were a few moments of brilliance where I could engage with the boot and really feel it's incredible performance in terms of responsiveness and pretty progressive flex...but it was short lived. Hard to accept the fact that my feet just aren't shaped for the shell but life goes on...in a back up emergency pair of mango maestrales...surprisingly sufficient but the mountain labs simplicity of use and inherent performance will be missed for sure.

Touring wise, the rear rom was awesome, forward rom pretty damn good but a hair limited at the extreme end of travel with a quick ramp up of resistance..but, plenty sufficient for most real world ski touring terrain types.

Analyzing the shell, I think the fit would have been more versatile for more instep heights had they extended the medial instep plastic higher past the fold of the ankle to allow for more direct contact with the lower shell instead of relying on the foot and/or liner foam to fill in that area...imo.

**kootenayskier** · 02-09-2016, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by swissiphic

My previous boot was a mercury punched aggressively for forefoot width and it fit well with intuition high volume luxury liners..snug in the heel, full contact in the curve of fold of ankle and instep.

Did a lengthy shop fit testing session with the mtn. lab and was satisfied that with my intuitions, the fit tension would be enough in the instep/ankle/heel area to work for my foot. Real world told a different story though. Instep height felt too high and chasing fit tension with foam was insufficient. Forward lean felt too upright, but I suspect that might be due primarily because of lack of contact with foot and fold of ankle/shin bones with boot cuff/fold of ankle/instep shell...was rarely ever really engaged with the true flex of the boot and made it feel a bit brick like at times with the foot moving fore and aft and shell not responding to shin input...I thought I had these issues solved with some heel wedges and c pads to take up some volume and it did snug the fairly volumous heel pocket up a bit but lateral slop re emerged after liner foam packed out.

There were a few moments of brilliance where I could engage with the boot and really feel it's incredible performance in terms of responsiveness and pretty progressive flex...but it was short lived. Hard to accept the fact that my feet just aren't shaped for the shell but life goes on...in a back up emergency pair of mango maestrales...surprisingly sufficient but the mountain labs simplicity of use and inherent performance will be missed for sure.

Touring wise, the rear rom was awesome, forward rom pretty damn good but a hair limited at the extreme end of travel with a quick ramp up of resistance..but, plenty sufficient for most real world ski touring terrain types.

Analyzing the shell, I think the fit would have been more versatile for more instep heights had they extended the medial instep plastic higher past the fold of the ankle to allow for more direct contact with the lower shell instead of relying on the foot and/or liner foam to fill in that area...imo.

Thanks for the details. It does seem they've achieved an impressive balance of ski performance, tourabilty, and ease of use, but with my foot shape I expect I'd be in for similar frustrations.

**Dromond** · 02-09-2016, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by swissiphic

My previous boot was a mercury punched aggressively for forefoot width and it fit well with intuition high volume luxury liners..snug in the heel, full contact in the curve of fold of ankle and instep...

Thanks for your thoughts. I also ski Mercuries with the HV Luxury liner, (HV is the thickest one right? I have the thickest.) That liner has significantly improved the fit and responsiveness of the boot for me. It was really tight at first but after break in I am so pleased with the conformed fit and density of the liner. It doesn't flex and tour quite as well as the stock liner but comfort and precision are vastly better. I didn't need to punch for width as my foot is narrow. I ski with the tongues in, partially because I prefer the stiffness but also because I find the added thickness of the tongue over my foot/instep/shin somehow takes up just the right amount of volume and fits a little more tightly for the ski down vs. the climb up.

It sounds like I might have the same issues with the Mtn Lab due to a low instep. Too bad as it sounds and looks like a super awesome boot.

**XXX-er** · 02-09-2016, 02:39 PM

I didn't ski the mercury very often without the tongues cuz it wasn't stiff enough for me so I would only remove tongues for the long approach, the Vulcan is stiffer probably stiff enough without tongues but there is something about my stance without tongues that I don't like so I don't take them out much either

Originally Posted by bennymac

If you're a customer in the market for new boots then it seems like Mtn Labs - having comparable weight, stiffness, flex, and touring ability - would easily trump Vulcans.

When you got to the top of a skintrack you could spend your extra time (after easily flipping three buckles) counting the $250 you saved while the Vulcan user swaps in tongues

Fit is personal and subjective so that could sway your decision.

I think that process is upside down^^ the prospective boot buyer should be looking at fit fit fit before worrying about tongue swaps and the net amount of money spent on dealing with a boot that doesn't fit is gona be way more than 250$, the trips to the tuner, the money lost finally selling off a used product that doesn't work for the end loser and then what price is pain and the time wasted with a product that doesn't work well for you ... its small potatoes compared to the $$$ we spend to go skiing

In PM's I told Guido to just buy another Mercury or Vulcan punch it where he knows the boot will work, fuck with the removable stops, fuck with removable tongue but damn kids now days never listen ... at least I can say I told you so

**swissiphic** · 02-09-2016, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by XXX-er

at least I can say I told you so

gee thanx Al. Like many aspects of life, this ain't a black and white issue, rather a sliding scale of shades of gray. Yes the mercury (and i'm sure vulcan) was awesome...in some respects...not enough to make me wanna rebuy. Yup, fit is super important but... time marches on, I'm getting older and lazier, technology evolves and the reality is I want and need more out of a boot. In some cases less is more. I want to spend less than boot plus an extra intuition liner going in on a brand new boot. I want less finicky buckling, not cool with having to replace five buckles due to breakage, the sole wore out after only a dozen days of dryland approaches, and to get them to fit, they were punched at least half a dozen times. They never did feel just right flex wise until i ground the flex stops and added the krypton tongue. Yup, they served me well and don't owe me a damn thing...but were high maintenance.

It's just too bad the khion ain't ready just yet, i'm sure it would have been the closest reasonable hand drawn facsimile of the mercs...and I would have bought it in a heartbeat if it was dialed.

As for the sollies, if they just fit just a bit better...they would have been pretty much everything I could ask for. Eternal envy of those with normal feet.

All is not lost Al, my maestrale's fit better than the mercs atm and since they're newer, they actually flex stiffer, and noticable more progressively, than the softened plastic of the age fatigued now slightly less than mighty mercuries. Still the same damn fiddle fuckery with the buckles...but, no tongue...no tongue...

**Judo Chop!** · 02-09-2016, 06:16 PM

I've seen some pics of Cody Townsend's MTN lab and it looks like he's moved the instep buckle forward, then added a 45deg ankle buckle - I'm assuming to help hold the heel, and potentially solve the issues I would have relating to the fit. I'm wondering if this would be a major project to add, or simply just putting a bolt through the pivot. thoughts?

The khion seems like a step back from the vulcan. and the MTN lab looks like a step forward... but needs a tighter heel pocket and that ankle buckle for my taste.

you can sorta kinda see what I'm talking about here: