Trucks.

[abraham]

Seattle has some electric garbage trucks, when I looked into it I was surprised they only had a Max range of 60 miles. I'm not sure why I thought they needed more than that.
Given how much extra batteries weigh, I don't think you'd want to carry around a ton of additional weight all the time just to be able to tow 1-200 miles more.

[Bobcat Sig]

Debating getting rid of the '04 Chevy K2500 for a new Tacoma. The Chevy is in good shape, nearly rust-free and runs good, I've had it on synthetic since it was new and it has synthetic tranny and transfer case fluid too.

But, it's way bigger than I need, chugs gas, and stuff is starting to go wrong with it on a regular basis, enough that a payment on something new would bepretty much a wash over the last year,

One thing I was kinda thinking about, with all the supply chain shit, a truck that needs parts on the reg could be a problem. I just got the front hubs replaced and they said it could wait a while but they were almost out of the good parts they usually use and were scrambling for alternatives so I went ahead and did it now.

I dunno, I'm torn. It's been a good truck, but...well I dunno. Latest thing is the right turn signal, there's a gremlin in the electrical somewhere, maybe it will be easy to fix, maybe not. It goes back in the shop next week and I just got it out 2 weeks ago.

What sez ye?

The cheapest vehicle is the one you own. Sure, one year of repairs would pay for the note, but what about the next three or four years?

Rivian just got tested towing a car across the country. Range was fucking pitiful at 120-160 mile range at highway speeds per realistic charge (as in to maintain the battery you don't run it to zero and only charge to 80% to save charge time). It'll be sub 100 for contractors doing stuff in town or towing anything like an enclosed trailer or box. Add in all those extra stops you have to make, plus the added time of charging and they averaged barely over 300 miles PER DAY.

Fuck that shit. Lightning isn't going to be any better than that and that is a non-starter for most people. They also completely gloss over the fact in a lot of situations they had to go out of their way to charge it currently. Oh and by the way, 1 in 4 charging stations was broken when they showed up, and the kicker, you probably will need to unhitch your trailer to charge the fucking thing.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/43320/...-cross-country

120 miles is a fucking joke. I tow my boat further than that to go to the lake most days, and forget about anybody who uses a camper. But the tesla bros who want an electric brodozer I'm sure will be stoked and fill the internet with "no one actually uses trucks for truck stuff" arguments that don't hold water outside of NYC or LA.

Even outside of NYC and LA, most bros driving a truck don't need a truck. That's where the Rivian fits in. Your anecdote is the exception to nearly all truck owners.

Anecdotal and preliminary, but you also glossed over the fact they were making estimates on using 64% of the charge.



Yeah, it's not for everyone, but I think it would work for more people than the truck bros assume.

Agreed. It's an EV is a form factor appealing to that set of buyers.

[AdironRider]

So says two city slickers from Portland and Seattle, aka exactly the people that project that truck buyers don't ever use trucks for truck things on the internet.

Way to illustrate the point fellas.

[Toadman]

Seattle has some electric garbage trucks, when I looked into it I was surprised they only had a Max range of 60 miles. I'm not sure why I thought they needed more than that.
Given how much extra batteries weigh, I don't think you'd want to carry around a ton of additional weight all the time just to be able to tow 1-200 miles more.

This is the big engineering design issue for Class 8 trucks. How do you build a battery pack and come in within the 80k lb FDOT weight limits and then get the range needed, so that you are not having to stop every 2-3 hours to recharge the batteries for an hour. So for long haul trucking that is a big nut to crack. For P&D (pick up & delivery) vehicles in the class 4-6 range, it shouldn't be such a big issue as much of that is multi-drop in short radius range (100-150 miles).

That's why for the Amazon/FedEx, etc. group with the commercial vans for last mile delivery, it's not such a big deal on the range situation. But all that engineering tech that squeezes out more miles per Kwh per pound of battery is going to benefit all EV's in the long run.

[dunfree]

So says two city slickers from Portland and Seattle, aka exactly the people that project that truck buyers don't ever use trucks for truck things on the internet.

Way to illustrate the point fellas.

theres more trucks in the Seattle metro than Idaho

im 100% certain that the truck bros near me who never tow more than 100 miles will still buy a gasser forever.

[AdironRider]

I just don't see some revolution coming to overcome the charging issue. That shit is real as the article I posted points out. At highway speeds (aka the fastest towing you can do) it took someone literally all damn day to go 300 miles. That is an incredibly inefficient use of time. Any bean counter will tell you that labor time is more expensive than the truck itself, let alone the fuel costs, which are just a portion of that. Nevermind the average Joe who isn't going to think its neato to spend over 8 hours of his vacation or weekend to do a trip he could have knocked out by noon in his old rig that cost less.

Electric vehicles are no different than a compact car, or a diesel engines, or whatever. They fill a specific niche and are not the end all be all that people seem to be trying to force upon everyone. Kind of like autonomous driving. It is never going to be the end game, but can certainly work in specific situations.

[dunfree]

11 million light trucks sold in the usa last year. 10% of that, a niche, is a lot of units. And that niche would be double heavy truck sales.

really thought this is the ev hypebeast “it’s all changing immediately, TESLA IS THE FUTURE, legacy dead” colliding with reality. Ev are a fast growing subset of the current market that will still be a subset in a number of years.

[Bobcat Sig]

So says two city slickers from Portland and Seattle, aka exactly the people that project that truck buyers don't ever use trucks for truck things on the internet.

Way to illustrate the point fellas.

Take a deep breath and lower the defensive nature. I was agreeing with you. You are the exception to most truck buyers. And trucks like the Rivian and Lightning aren't for you. Or me. For the dude-bros commuting in their trucks, carrying nothing but air - that's the intended market.

While the landscape of transportation is changing, it will be a while until it impacts use cases like yours. Or mine. If anything, it's giving us more choice. That's a good thing.

[abraham]

So says two city slickers from Portland and Seattle, aka exactly the people that project that truck buyers don't ever use trucks for truck things on the internet.

Way to illustrate the point fellas.

Weird. I'm pretty sure I wrote about trucks being used for truck things. But maybe class 8 vehicles don't count as trucks if you're from New Hampshire because it's hard to count that high?

[abraham]

This is the big engineering design issue for Class 8 trucks. How do you build a battery pack and come in within the 80k lb FDOT weight limits and then get the range needed, so that you are not having to stop every 2-3 hours to recharge the batteries for an hour. So for long haul trucking that is a big nut to crack. For P&D (pick up & delivery) vehicles in the class 4-6 range, it shouldn't be such a big issue as much of that is multi-drop in short radius range (100-150 miles).

That's why for the Amazon/FedEx, etc. group with the commercial vans for last mile delivery, it's not such a big deal on the range situation. But all that engineering tech that squeezes out more miles per Kwh per pound of battery is going to benefit all EV's in the long run.

It seems charging stations would be an issue, but at a place like the larger UPS facilities I wonder if they'd be able to swap batteries.

At some point I wonder if pantographs will be open to use by vehicles other than buses. Like this guy.

https://thebolditalic.com/hacked-pri...o-80cdbe55d68e

[mcphee]

I just don't see some revolution coming to overcome the charging issue. That shit is real as the article I posted points out. At highway speeds (aka the fastest towing you can do) it took someone literally all damn day to go 300 miles. That is an incredibly inefficient use of time. Any bean counter will tell you that labor time is more expensive than the truck itself, let alone the fuel costs, which are just a portion of that. Nevermind the average Joe who isn't going to think its neato to spend over 8 hours of his vacation or weekend to do a trip he could have knocked out by noon in his old rig that cost less.

Electric vehicles are no different than a compact car, or a diesel engines, or whatever. They fill a specific niche and are not the end all be all that people seem to be trying to force upon everyone. Kind of like autonomous driving. It is never going to be the end game, but can certainly work in specific situations.

You realize that to optimize and innovate future technology, you have to sell the technology you currently have?

[Mazderati]

bros who want an electric brodozer I'm sure will be stoked and fill the internet with "no one actually uses trucks for truck stuff" arguments that don't hold water outside of NYC or LA.

I am lustful for a 2wd regular cab short box...

The only thing it will haul is copious amounts of ass

Must be in NYC or LA.

[alpinevibes]

You realize that to optimize and innovate future technology, you have to sell the technology you currently have?

This.

I took delivery of a $368k EV Class 7 Freightliner (an EV Thomas school bus) two weeks ago with a stated 125mi range. I'm not getting that range so far in my testing (and it's goddamn 54F right now here at 8000'). But... it's where the technology is at, it's cheaper for me to both purchase and operate versus a 6.7L Cummins and it's a foot in the door to access newer tech as it comes to market. It won't solve all my usage needs, but it works for 80% of them and with some adaptation, is a great solution.

Hopefully in 5yrs "real truck" bros can get an EV pickup for under $100k with 500mi range, 20,000 towing and 4,000 payload. You'll see payback on your $100k investment and hopefully the overall ownership cost will be in line with your current oil burner/coal roller. FWIW, Lucid is debuting their car with 900v charging capability, which can result in 300mi range in 20min: the tech is getting there, slowly.

[MarcusBrody]

This.

I took delivery of a $368k EV Class 7 Freightliner (an EV Thomas school bus) two weeks ago with a stated 125mi range. I'm not getting that range so far in my testing (and it's goddamn 54F right now here at 8000'). But... it's where the technology is at, it's cheaper for me to both purchase and operate versus a 6.7L Cummins and it's a foot in the door to access newer tech as it comes to market. It won't solve all my usage needs, but it works for 80% of them and with some adaptation, is a great solution.

Hopefully in 5yrs "real truck" bros can get an EV pickup for under $100k with 500mi range, 20,000 towing and 4,000 payload. You'll see payback on your $100k investment and hopefully the overall ownership cost will be in line with your current oil burner/coal roller. FWIW, Lucid is debuting their car with 900v charging capability, which can result in 300mi range in 20min: the tech is getting there, slowly.

This is actually one of my incentives not to get an electric vehicle right now. The technology/infrastructure seems to be rapidly improving. I don't need crazy capacity, but like everyone else would like longer range and faster charging. Still, one of my vehicles is going and I tend to keep mine for a long time, so I've looked at electric as an option assuming that we can keep using our van as our long distance car right now and then trade it for something small and fun in a few years when the infrastructure is there for the EV.

[alpinevibes]

This is actually one of my incentives not to get an electric vehicle right now. The technology/infrastructure seems to be rapidly improving. I don't need crazy capacity, but like everyone else would like longer range and faster charging. Still, one of my vehicles is going and I tend to keep mine for a long time, so I've looked at electric as an option assuming that we can keep using our van as our long distance car right now and then trade it for something small and fun in a few years when the infrastructure is there for the EV.

Yes, for sure and personally I'm in the same boat with wanting to wait a bit longer to milk out my current cars before making the investment.

I think with the EV landscape its important to realize that the market is much more fragmented compared to the traditional car market and much more compared to how the media/EV hype machine/auto industry wants to pitch it as a cure all. But, for a lot of buyers ready/needing to replace a car and for a lot of commercial/government entities: funding, planning and other windows of opportunity are pushing people to get on board now. In my case, I'm getting $285k of the $385k project cost back in grants.

Big picture, especially since this is a trucks thread: the more money poured into the EV space now, the better truck products will come to market and the quicker you'll see them - beyond rivian/cybertruck weekend trucks.

[Toadman]

It seems charging stations would be an issue, but at a place like the larger UPS facilities I wonder if they'd be able to swap batteries.

At some point I wonder if pantographs will be open to use by vehicles other than buses. Like this guy.

https://thebolditalic.com/hacked-pri...o-80cdbe55d68e

Yeah, I've seen that suggested for long haul trucking. Some type of wired set up like they have all over Europe for street cars and buses. No idea how much that would cost per mile to install. I bet it ain't cheap though.

[bigt]

I am in a unique situation for the EV truck market. I live in a land locked town with 80 miles of roads, cheap electricity, good charging infrastructure and cool environment which can be good for battery health if it’s is not thermoregulated. ( points if you can guess where i live). I do all the regular truck shit with my 06 Tundra ( hauling wood, boats, gravel) but when I am just commuting I drive a Nissan Leaf with 70 mile range. I see the eletric F150 as a decent merger between the two. 5.5’ bed stinks IMO but price and range is decent. But I may wait a few year before jumping in to let the tech and design shake out and try grab a used one from a disillusioned tech bro that cannot drive as far as he wanted.


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[El Chupacabra]

^^^ Juneau?

[snowaddict91]

I am in a unique situation for the EV truck market. I live in a land locked town with 80 miles of roads, cheap electricity, good charging infrastructure and cool environment which can be good for battery health if it’s is not thermoregulated. ( points if you can guess where i live). I do all the regular truck shit with my 06 Tundra ( hauling wood, boats, gravel) but when I am just commuting I drive a Nissan Leaf with 70 mile range. I see the eletric F150 as a decent merger between the two. 5.5’ bed stinks IMO but price and range is decent. But I may wait a few year before jumping in to let the tech and design shake out and try grab a used one from a disillusioned tech bro that cannot drive as far as he wanted.


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I was really close to buying a leaf for my city driving/commuting in SLC. My house would have needed extensive electrical work to make it realistic and at the time my employer didn't have onsite charging, but they do now and it's free. I did some rough math and figured I could do 75% of my driving in a cheap leaf while my truck just sits.

Alas, I wanted a newer truck so I bought a gas F150. Now I don't live in the city and I work from home, so I suppose it all works out. But yeah, count me in the group that an EV pickup just doesn't work for, yet anyways.

[Hopeless Sinner]

An article on 11/29/21 in the NTY talked about Indiana and Perdue researching wireless charging in the road bed.





they drive.
The technology works by adding small particles of recycled ferrite — a ceramic made by mixing iron oxide blended with slivers of metallic elements, such as nickel and zinc — to a concrete mixture which is magnetized by running an electrical current. This creates a magnetic field that transmits power wirelessly to the vehicle.

[bigt]

^^^ Juneau?

I guess it was too easy.


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[neufox47]

Yeah, I've seen that suggested for long haul trucking. Some type of wired set up like they have all over Europe for street cars and buses. No idea how much that would cost per mile to install. I bet it ain't cheap though.

Could you only do it for certain stretches though? Like a mile of charge cable every 10 miles to recharge?

[Hopeless Sinner]

This is the big engineering design issue for Class 8 trucks. How do you build a battery pack and come in within the 80k lb FDOT weight limits and then get the range needed, so that you are not having to stop every 2-3 hours to recharge the batteries for an hour. So for long haul trucking that is a big nut to crack. For P&D (pick up & delivery) vehicles in the class 4-6 range, it shouldn't be such a big issue as much of that is multi-drop in short radius range (100-150 miles).

That's why for the Amazon/FedEx, etc. group with the commercial vans for last mile delivery, it's not such a big deal on the range situation. But all that engineering tech that squeezes out more miles per Kwh per pound of battery is going to benefit all EV's in the long run.

There is no practical reason that 80k lbs is the absolute limit. In fact raising the limit now along w new running gear to stop it and enough tire surface to keep the ground pressure the same as now is doable. This would lower the cost of shipping and enable higher driver pay. 4-5 years ago the limit was close to being raised, but ultimately they let it stand.

[gravitylover]

An article on 11/29/21 in the NTY talked about Indiana and Perdue researching wireless charging in the road bed.





they drive.
The technology works by adding small particles of recycled ferrite — a ceramic made by mixing iron oxide blended with slivers of metallic elements, such as nickel and zinc — to a concrete mixture which is magnetized by running an electrical current. This creates a magnetic field that transmits power wirelessly to the vehicle.

Now if they'd add piezo electric generators then the car creates energy generating vibrations as it rolls along that is transmitted forward to charge the car as it passes. Due to the inherent power loss there will need to be power added to the system but not nearly as much as would be needed without the generators.

[neufox47]

Rivian just got tested towing a car across the country. Range was fucking pitiful at 120-160 mile range at highway speeds per realistic charge (as in to maintain the battery you don't run it to zero and only charge to 80% to save charge time). It'll be sub 100 for contractors doing stuff in town or towing anything like an enclosed trailer or box. Add in all those extra stops you have to make, plus the added time of charging and they averaged barely over 300 miles PER DAY.

Fuck that shit. Lightning isn't going to be any better than that and that is a non-starter for most people. They also completely gloss over the fact in a lot of situations they had to go out of their way to charge it currently. Oh and by the way, 1 in 4 charging stations was broken when they showed up, and the kicker, you probably will need to unhitch your trailer to charge the fucking thing.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/43320/...-cross-country

120 miles is a fucking joke. I tow my boat further than that to go to the lake most days, and forget about anybody who uses a camper. But the tesla bros who want an electric brodozer I'm sure will be stoked and fill the internet with "no one actually uses trucks for truck stuff" arguments that don't hold water outside of NYC or LA.

That’s a pretty biased summary of that article. They have averaged 350 miles per day and hit 500 miles one day. Also, the 120 miles is extrapolated from some math that appears intent on showing the lowest range possible, not a direct report. In reality you’d expect that each day would start with a full charge giving you 180-200 miles to start, requiring 1 short charge to hit 300+.

Why would you ever leave your house or start your day with an 80% charge? On that basis there is no possible way a contractor would get <100 miles a day when starting from a full charge.

My parents were full time RVers and their mile totals are very similar to what they did with a 3500 towing a 5th wheel. Longest day ever was 550 miles with an average in the 300’s. They don’t seem to be in a particular hurry.

1 of 4 charging stations is out of order, not charging location, 1 of 4 pumps is out of order at my local gas station.

How many 500 mile towing days have you done in the past year? How many times have you towed over 200?

Is it equal for towing as an ICE, no. But it isn’t near as bad as you want to make it out to be.