Tele bindings that aren't crap

[jmedslc]

Gang: awesome discussion!

I’m coming from big skis, Axl, and T-Race. Sounds like Outlaws and TX-Comp are where I’m headed assuming boot last isn’t too wide. Then I need to research shift plates.

Anyone have a link for those, or any leads on buy options for Outlaw plus 30.0 TX-Comps? Actually only need shells so if anyone is looking for a 30.0 Intuition liner, LMK.

https://www.freeheellife.com/

They Have a sale going on right now and I believe that 29.5 boot will be the shell size you need. Although you should verify that on your own

[charlesj]

I am an old geezer, and late to this party, who had experience with 75mm back in the 20th c, now I dabble in it. 22Designs. Rotte's R8 is good too, can't dis Voile,

If you want uphill tele...I dunno,. but there are a bunch of options. The whole thing is funny because of the modern (20th c.) history of tele was about going into the BC, touring with downhill capability yadda yadda then plastic and active bindings yadda yadda now one needs touring tele. My fondness for 22Designs would push me in the AXL direction, the Voile is probably light and less height than 22D

[Peruvian]

TLDR; Outlaw and TX comp are the best NTN combo currently available for riding inbounds on lifts.

FIFY

[jmedslc]

Ok took the Lynx out (w spacers removed) today on old wailer 99 - thanks D-Roc - and they skied MUCH better. Didn’t bottom out the boot and no issues w the ski lurching forward.

Although Even tho I have them on the softest setting (I think - see photo ), they still feel a little stiff to me. I would appreciate a little softer possible flex in the range.

Overall I like how these ski and plan to take them out touring this wknd.

[Meadow Skipper]

All y’all on tx pro’s, did u pick em over the tx comp because of the tech toes?

Yes. If I was buying new ones I’d get the Comp. The Pro’s pretty soft.

[ski-wpk]

I feel like my T-Races are soft so sounds like the Comps are what I need.

[DarthMarkus]

Gang: awesome discussion!

I’m coming from big skis, Axl, and T-Race. Sounds like Outlaws and TX-Comp are where I’m headed assuming boot last isn’t too wide. Then I need to research shift plates.

Anyone have a link for those, or any leads on buy options for Outlaw plus 30.0 TX-Comps? Actually only need shells so if anyone is looking for a 30.0 Intuition liner, LMK.

I'll chime in a little here. I went from alpine directly to the tx comp with outlaws. I'm 190, 6'0. I don't really have any regrets. If anything, I think I could maybe go with tighter springs in the outlaws.

Skiing 193 gunsmokes. Not great in tight areas like trees or moguls with teles yet, but I also haven't skied anything shorter than the 193s, so I could maybe see going softer if I were on a shorter ski.

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[Toddball]

Really too bad the TX Comp doesn't have tech fittings, seems like that would really simplify boot choice in this thread.

[teleposeur]

I feel like my T-Races are soft so sounds like the Comps are what I need.

I'll watch your transition with interest, I'm on a similar setup- candycanes & HH, but after a couple of big injuries I am starting to dread 75mm's lack of release. Its hard to imagine something skiing as good, thinking Rotte NTN or maybe lock 'em down. In the meantime, you got any HH parts kicking around?

[dschane]

thinking Rotte NTN

See post #94.

[Tri-Ungulate]

Really, it comes down to what you want from tele skiing. Some of us started tele skiing on leathers and 3-pins and like the loosey-goosey feel of a neutral binding and floppy boots, or at least hearken back to that gestalt, even as we seek more power from bigger skis and boots.

Others, as mentioned previously on this thread, moved over directly to TX Comps and Outlaws and would understandably expect more power and control from the get-go, though nobody'll ever get the power and control of a locked-in boot/binding. Never ever.

What you're used to, how you've developed your skills, and what you expect and desire will inform your choice on the "best" tele equipment in general, and it's gonna vary immeasurably between skiers, even moreso than it would be by simply taking weight/height/ability into account.

That being said, as somebody who has transitioned from Scarpa Boot Neiges on cable bindings to my current big boot/big ski setups, my personal thoughts and experiences are below (these are all bindings that I still use)

For inbounds charging:
75mm (Scarpa candycane T-Races or BDEL creamsicle Pushes, the former ski better for me than the latter)
- Old Bishop Bombers are still nonpariel for me, even though this thread is 5 years old, and the Bomber design pushing 15+ years. Goes to show how technology (especially tele tech) evolves glacially. The 2.0 are tough and ski amazingly. The 1.0 can break at the tubes (had it happen in the middle of a comp, even) but they still ski great.
- I don't like the BMFs. As mentioned earlier in this thread, they are like a beta test, I experienced constantly breaking plastic parts and loosening screws. They ski pretty well for me, as expected great lateral control, but are too active for my taste. Heavy.

NTN (Scarpa halloween TX Pros, Garmont black/red Prophets, Crispi orange CXRs in order of preference)
- I like the Rotte Freeride and Freedom, prefer the latter as it's more neutral and doesn't eat my boots. Boot matters more than binding in this case, and the Scarpas work best for me. Crispis are too active, Garmonts okay but fit me weird.
- Just starting out on the Lynxs and I like them, but they take a little getting used to, the flex is different. Not bad, but different, and I can get knee to the ski with them, which I like.

Have not tried Meijdos, Outlaws or the BMF/NTN. But from what I've heard, I would prolly go Outlaw over BMF. Sorry Dave. If 3 pair sounds too pricey go with the shift plate or quiver killer insert route.

For touring:
75mm and NTN (TX Pros, Crispi CXPs, Scarpa Defenders, Garmont Liberos):
- Freedoms and Lynx are great for touring (for me) as well. Lynx nice and light. Haven't had icing problems with either.
- B&D plate/Dynafit TLT/Voile hardwire heel throw: Use these with the Defenders, very light, ski okay but can't get too low with them, overally pretty good
- OMG TTS kit with Voile hardwire springs: Light and fast, ski pretty well overall.
- Voile Switchback: Still love these for 75mm touring, ski well, not super powerful, but I don't mind as I like a neutral binding.

- G3 Enzo: No longer made, actually an underrated setup, much better to me than the BDEL O2s.

From what I've heard, Outlaw tours well too.

Note: some of the subjective limitations I've noted on the touring setups in re: power have to do with the lightweight ski/boot setups as much (or more) than due to the bindings themselves.

None of the above bindings are crap. I have reservations re: the BMFs, but they aren't crap.

Me: ~5'9" ~150#, old and fading but previous tele extremes competitor. Prefer a non-uber-stiff boot/more neutral knee-to-ski feel but don't mind high stance or even P-turning. Value lateral power/control over "active" engagement. Currently prefer 100mm+ waist skis, lightweight, but "directional" drivers at 180+ cm

[chicken feathers]

All ancient history at this point, but worth mentioning since people are still talking about touring on 75mm here. For 75mm touring I like 3 pin bindings like the Voile cable traverse & hardwire with a boot like the T2 and light touring skis, 100mm or so. With the toe connected you engage the bellows while walking. Most importantly you can release the cable so you're not picking up extra weight each stride. It's the same concept as TTS, and it's the closest I've been able to get to the power and efficiency of my current AT gear...on technology that peaked in the 90's. As fas a 75mm touring goes I'd pick this over a pivoting telemark binding like an Axl/switchback/02 anyday. I can only tolerate those for short sidecountry walks...Until a boot with better ROM comes out to match with the lynx or medjo I think a setup like that is worth the consideration of anyone considering a TTS system.

[bodywhomper]

wra: thanks for the testing info about the new voile binding.

There’s banter on a tele FB page about the phantom new scarpa tele boot.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/4621...3258561394188/

I still fail to understand why the companies are not pushing out more/newer tele boots. I’ve heard the “molds are expensive” excuse for too long. I’d love to see the sales #’s between AT boots and tele boot sales accounting for the market share of each company. There are SO many AT boot skus out these days, and the companies pushing out AT boots are pushing out new boots every season or two. Are they selling at a loss? I remember when Garmont would come out with new boots every year or two, and look what happened to them....

Personally, my current plan is to pursue the used gear shops or get some tx comp. I have groomer zoomer skis and ntn binding waiting in my garage. These will be one of my work skis for me at the ski hill. I can’t wait to have brakes and step-in qualities!

[Danno]

The 3 Pin hard wire was a criminally underrated binding, had a tour mode before that was a thing, and skied well. But it isn't on par with the modern touring bindings (75mm and NTN).

[bodywhomper]

The hardwire was also a patent infringement

[MagnificentUnicorn]

wra: thanks for the testing info about the new voile binding.

There’s banter on a tele FB page about the phantom new scarpa tele boot.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/4621...3258561394188/

I still fail to understand why the companies are not pushing out more/newer tele boots. I’ve heard the “molds are expensive” excuse for too long. I’d love to see the sales #’s between AT boots and tele boot sales accounting for the market share of each company. There are SO many AT boot skus out these days, and the companies pushing out AT boots are pushing out new boots every season or two. Are they selling at a loss? I remember when Garmont would come out with new boots every year or two, and look what happened to them....

Personally, my current plan is to pursue the used gear shops or get some tx comp. I have groomer zoomer skis and ntn binding waiting in my garage. These will be one of my work skis for me at the ski hill. I can’t wait to have brakes and step-in qualities!

Maybe these boot companies are in business to make profits. Might explain the lack new tele boots. That and most telemarkers are cheap bastards



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[wra]

I know of a number of people ordering the old Scarpa F1s from a company in europe because they work with the new tts bindings.
Unavailable elsewhere so...cheap bastards?

[XXX-er]

wra: thanks for the testing info about the new voile binding.

There’s banter on a tele FB page about the phantom new scarpa tele boot.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/4621...3258561394188/

I still fail to understand why the companies are not pushing out more/newer tele boots. I’ve heard the “molds are expensive” excuse for too long. I’d love to see the sales #’s between AT boots and tele boot sales accounting for the market share of each company. There are SO many AT boot skus out these days, and the companies pushing out AT boots are pushing out new boots every season or two. Are they selling at a loss? I remember when Garmont would come out with new boots every year or two, and look what happened to them....

Personally, my current plan is to pursue the used gear shops or get some tx comp. I have groomer zoomer skis and ntn binding waiting in my garage. These will be one of my work skis for me at the ski hill. I can’t wait to have brakes and step-in qualities!

almost every tele skier i know has quit tele and you seriously you wonder why ?

Its cuz AT is easier than tele so people are buying AT gear especialy as they age out

no mfger can afford to lose money making tele gear for very long

It would have been awhile back when I asked the local guy why he quit stocking tele boots and he said " I tele myself but I only sold 2 pair of boots last yar so i quit carrying but i can order you whatever " which means you can' really try anything on

[TeleBeaver]

FIFY

You're right, I should have made that distinction. I tour on Meidjos and F1s modded with a NTN connection underfoot. I find that setup sufficient for longer days and most mellow tours. It skis a lot like a softer 75mm setup and is really enjoyable. For backcountry sending/sidecountry I have some old Crispi Evo World cups modded with a scarpa Mastrale Cuff and I ski those on a Lynx. The BC tele boots currently available just don't cut it for me so I made my own.

[TeleBeaver]

almost every tele skier i know has quit tele and you seriously you wonder why ?

Its cuz AT is easier than tele so people are buying AT gear especialy as they age out

no mfger can afford to lose money making tele gear for very long

It would have been awhile back when I asked the local guy why he quit stocking tele boots and he said " I tele myself but I only sold 2 pair of boots last yar so i quit carrying but i can order you whatever " which means you can' really try anything on

The scarpa T4 telemark boot is scarpas most profitable product. Their cost is so low on them and the R&D was so long ago that they have huge margins. They also have an 80% market share of the american tele boot market. Not saying your local shop can afford to stock a whole line of boots, but Scarpa makes money selling tele gear.

They are also not just blowing smoke up our ass about the new tele boot. They are working on it. I have seen the prototype with my own eyes. That's all I can say but fingers crossed for a 2023 release.

[jmedslc]

Ok took the Lynx out (w spacers removed) today on old wailer 99 - thanks D-Roc - and they skied MUCH better. Didn’t bottom out the boot and no issues w the ski lurching forward.

Although Even tho I have them on the softest setting (I think - see photo ), they still feel a little stiff to me. I would appreciate a little softer possible flex in the range.

i found this article explaining a bit about the spacers, etc. I guess i should keep them handy as i'll need them again soon.

https://www.telemarkskier.com/review-22ds-lynx-2020/

[ski-wpk]

Reviving this thread once again.

Anyone skiing on Bishop BMF/R’s? I’ve dumped my 75mm gear and got TX/Comps, just need bindings. Was planning on Outlaws but after seeing a pair of Bishops this weekend, I’m intrigued…

[Toddball]

Reviving this thread once again.

Anyone skiing on Bishop BMF/R’s? I’ve dumped my 75mm gear and got TX/Comps, just need bindings. Was planning on Outlaws but after seeing a pair of Bishops this weekend, I’m intrigued…

I have a bunch of days on BMF/Rs, but I've never tried an Outlaw, and I'm relatively new to tele, so take this feedback with that grain of salt. Very interested in comments from anyone who has tried both the BMFs and Outlaw/Outlaw X. Short version:

Pros:
- powerful flex that engages instantly and ramps up smoothly
- great edging
- pretty good step in and out
- not much plastic, but also not super heavy
- shares mount pattern with 22 Designs*
- fits any NTN boot

Cons
- pretty bad touring range of motion
- lots of screws that may or may not have thread lock applied
- *boot ends up around 3cm forward of where it would have been with 22 Designs binding, for same holes
- setting forward pressure is kind of fiddly
- maybe too powerful for me in pow/I stuffed tips a lot

Long version:

My resort setup for last year was a pair of 186cm Moment Governors with BMF/Rs, and 25.5 Garmont Prophets. I got the Governors because I knew I would like them with alpine bindings, in case tele wasn't fun; the Prophets because they were cheap and 26.5 Scarpas were too big for me, and the BMF/Rs because I wasn't sure which end of the NTN Small/Large divide I would end up on (and I found them cheap-ish on eBay).


The spring preload is easily adjustable with a Pozidriver, and I ran mine a few turns in from the softest setting all season ("position 2 of 4" I think). I must have gotten used to a pretty low stance when I was figuring out the bindings over several nightskiing sessions, which meant tip dive when I eventually got to ski powder inbounds later in the season. On firm snow, dust on crust, or any time you can really drive the tips, the bindings were great. You get a lot of rebound out of the springs, and I liked that the heel piece locks into a groove under your heel on the binding so edging with the downhill ski is more precise. The range of motion (combined with my boot forward lean) feels just right, in that I can't quite get knee-to-ski even in max nose-butter.

Step-in and -out is pretty easy, once you figure out how to get your toe all the way into the cage without depressing the brakes. Speaking of which, the brakes stay flat on the ski when you tour, unlike the Outlaw brakes. The heel lever + secondary heel lock are pretty easy to operate either with your other boot or a ski pole.

I did get out on several short tours with this extraordinarily heavy setup. I'm not sure what the Outlaws are like for touring, but the BMF/Rs feel like a frame AT binding. They only have about a 45-degree range of motion, which means you have to be careful not to catch your tips when the skinning gets more interesting than a perfectly smooth skin track. The tour mode lever and catches can have some icing issues, too. Maybe other tele bindings suck this much to tour in, too, but I don't feel the need to tour in my BMFs again. I have Lynx for that now.

The BMF mounts with the same pattern as 22Designs bindings, but the holes are around 3cm aft relative to your boot than they are with 22D. The heel also mounts really close to your midfoot, and its location relative to the toe holes does not depend on your boot size--it interfaces with the plastic piece on the main part of the binding on which the heel lever slides. Maybe I need to post a photo of this or something, but it makes more sense with the binding in hand. The upshot of this system is, you can share the front four holes of the BMF mount with the back four holes of a 22D mount, so a total of 8 toe holes with inserts will let you swap between 22D and BMF. Because I mounted the BMF first, and happen to have 25.5/26.0 boots, I could swap a 22D binding on there (with two new toe holes, but reusing the heel holes) and be in the right place.

Last note on mounting: the BMF uses a swap plate, similar to Rottefella. If you, like me, use inserts in your skis, you will have the great pleasure of fiddling with twelve (12!) screws per ski: six for the plate, four connecting the binding to the plate, and two for the heels. I guess the idea with plate is to leave it on and swap your bindings around, which I guess could work.

On the subject of screws: I lost one of the screws holding the main pivot together on my first tour, resulting in a kind of floppy ski down a popular snowshoe trail. Screw kits (and all kinds of other parts) are easy to get from Bishop, but you can also just get metric machine screws at the hardware store. I ended up buying screw kits and replacement brass bushings, and when I replaced the bushings I Vibratited everything I could.

Anyway, the BMF/Rs are pretty cool and I think they ski really well. There are plenty of people on them who make skiing look really fun (e.g. @coldseagull on Instagram). I would not want to tour on them much at all, but if your idea of sidecountry skiing includes a little skinning, they would be fine for that. If you're not interested in touring, you can save quite a bit of MSRP and get the BMF/3 instead.

You're welcome to take a few laps on my BMF/Rs + Governors if you're ever in Western WA.

[ski-wpk]

Toddball, thanks. Awesome, awesome feedback. Just bought a pair of /R’s with switch plates for a couple other skis. Hope I like them!

[frorider]

Stiff boots (like my Evo WC’s) put similar stress on yer bones/knee bits as an alpine boot. I’ve played around with the bishop BMF R but I’m not gonna ski something that is so intrinsically non releasable. Especially when the Freeride skis so well.

I guess the attraction of the Bishop is the tour mode? Obviously the freeride ain’t great for touring.